411 réponses à ce sujet

[crimzontearz]

oh FFS

ok, Bioware wanted ammo in ME, yes, ammo or the equivalent. How do I figure? Simple...a number of leps of logic and handwaving were done to make so that these heatsinks (thermal clips) worked exactly like ammo. In particular the way their "capacity" seems to conserve itself when you discard a half empty one, how they never cool off on their own in spite of thermodynamics laws, how they are STUCK with weapons and so on and so forth.

Hell Bioware even admitted they "wanted ammo mechanics to add tension to the game" in one of the first E3 reveals and whatnot.

Is it a retcon? not technically as ALL the weapons in the galaxy changed in the past 2 years while shepard was "almost dead" -headdesk-.

Is it "actually" ammo? No....but it works exactly the same way to the point that what SHOULD be there to differentiate this system from real ammo mechanis is just handwaved away to make it feel like ammo even when it is specifically specified otherwise (GPS)

As I said before this "tension" could have been achieved without implementing finite Ammo,here's to hoping they listened in ME3

[Schattenkeil]

Praetor Shepard wrote...

[*]Since a limited # of total shots is a concern for some of us here, then how about automatically refilling the weapons after a firefight when there is a lull/ transition to the next engagement, normally we find Thermal Clips on the ground some where, Power Cells or an Armory in the level during this time anyway.

I made s similar suggestion earlier in the thread. A lot of people seem to have a problem with the time the waste gathering clips and seem to have problems getting the full stock back after firefights.

So we just say you can fire this gun x times and another y times then you are still encouraged to use all your weapons to their very best tactical advantage, but you don't have to fear to run out if you fall behind over the course several firefights. Sounds like a decent compromise to me.

The disadvantage is that there is no special mechanism to resupply during lengthy firefights, so an ability to restore the cool state as you suggest, or a very slow natural cooldown during combat as I said earlier or simply random rare coolant cartridges that cools one weapon completely or all by percentage would be nice.

This way you'd have an uncomplicated system that even works in line with your other stats like health and stamina, that still leaves the tactical dimension intact.

[tonnactus]

There was nothing tactical about thermoclips in Mass Effect 2.Not even on "insanity".There were to many of them and so picking them up after a fight was an annoyance that just broke the flow of the game and didnt improve anything.

Modifié par tonnactus, 20 avril 2011 - 08:04 .

[didymos1120]

crimzontearz wrote...


Is it a retcon? not technically as ALL the weapons in the galaxy changed in the past 2 years while shepard was "almost dead" -headdesk-.

 

Actually, it technically is:  the innovation came from the geth, who were supposedly using the technology during ME1.  Thing is, you can acquire geth weapons in that game and they don't use thermal clips, nor do you see geth ejecting them in firefights.  Why? Because thermal clips didn't exist yet.

Modifié par didymos1120, 20 avril 2011 - 08:27 .

[CroGamer002]

Thermal clips Codex doesn't exist.

Modifié par Mesina2, 20 avril 2011 - 08:29 .

[Avissel]

didymos1120 wrote...
Actually, it technically is:  the innovation came from the geth, who were supposedly using the technology during ME1.  Thing is, you can acquire geth weapons in that game and they don't use thermal clips, nor do you see geth ejecting them in firefights.  Why? Because thermal clips didn't exist yet.

No where in the codex or game does it say they were using them during ME1.

Please try again.

Modifié par Avissel, 20 avril 2011 - 08:31 .

[Schattenkeil]

The tactical dimension is that you can shoot every weapon only so many times. The heavy pistol has only 24 shots, so you can't waste it taking down kinetic barriers or shields for which other weapons are better, but it's a good choice against heavy armor, depending on the distance to the target, for example. You have to use every weapon to its best. That's completely different than being able to shoot any one weapon as often as you want, whether you would have it true or not.

And no, there is not just enough ammo to keep fireing the heavy pistol through an entire firefight on insanity. Not even on hardcore or veteran.

[didymos1120]

Avissel wrote...

didymos1120 wrote...
Actually, it technically is:  the innovation came from the geth, who were supposedly using the technology during ME1.  Thing is, you can acquire geth weapons in that game and they don't use thermal clips, nor do you see geth ejecting them in firefights.  Why? Because thermal clips didn't exist yet.

No where in the codex or game does it say they were using them during ME1.

Please try again.

Please think about it: if the geth weren't using them in ME1, then how did we discover that they were using the tech and then adopt it? Did they suddenly invent it only just after ME1?  Because they hadn't been out of the veil for 300 some years prior to that game.

Modifié par didymos1120, 20 avril 2011 - 08:35 .

[CroGamer002]

didymos1120 wrote...

Avissel wrote...

didymos1120 wrote...
Actually, it technically is:  the innovation came from the geth, who were supposedly using the technology during ME1.  Thing is, you can acquire geth weapons in that game and they don't use thermal clips, nor do you see geth ejecting them in firefights.  Why? Because thermal clips didn't exist yet.

No where in the codex or game does it say they were using them during ME1.

Please try again.

Please think about it: if the geth weren't using them in ME1, then how did we discover that they were using the tech and then adopt it? Did they suddenly invent it only just after ME1?  Because they hadn't been out of the veil for 300 some years prior to that game.

AHEM




Thermal clips Codex doesn't exist.

[didymos1120]

Mesina2 wrote...

Thermal clips Codex doesn't exist.

I'm quite well aware that that entry is not canon. I did put in one of my unused audio videos after all. The Small Arms one does "officially" exist though:

To eliminate this inefficiency, the geth adopted detachable heat sinks known as thermal clips. While organic arms manufacturers were initially doubtful this would produce a net gain, a well-trained soldier can eject and swap thermal clips in under a second. Faced with superior enemy firepower, organic armies soon followed the geth's lead, and today's battlefields are littered with these thermal clips.

[Avissel]

didymos1120 wrote...

Please think about it: if the geth weren't using them in ME1, then how did we discover that they were using the tech and then adopt it? Did they suddenly invent it only just after ME1?  Because they hadn't been out of the veil for 300 some years prior to that game.

..Yes, they invinted some time after ME2, during the two years Shep was a chunk of meat more than likely.

The Codex says they invented it after studying battlefield data. They hadn't been out of the Veil in 300 years, hadn't fought a real war. They studied the battle between themselves and Shepard and the battles between themselves and the groups that would come to fight them after the Citadel battle.(Anderson mentions army units being deployed to attack discovered Geth locations) They started using the clips, the people sent in to fight them noticed suddenly the Geth were being more effective in battle, figured out what they had done and reverese engineered it.

Modifié par Avissel, 20 avril 2011 - 08:45 .

[Thezezeal]

Avissel wrote...
..Yes, they invinted some time after ME2, during the two years Shep was a chunk of meat more than likely.

The Codex says they invented it after studying battlefield data. They hadn't been out of the Veil in 300 years, hadn't fought a real war. They studied the battle between themselves and Shepard and the battles between themselves and the groups that would come to fight them after the Citadel battle.(Anderson mentions army units being deployed to attack discovered Geth locations) They started using the clips, the people sent in to fight them noticed suddenly the Geth were being more effective in battle, figured out what they had done and reverese engineered it.

Whilst that makes sense, it still seems to be rather pushing it just how fast they spread. Let's say that it took the Geth two-weeks to come up with this (with them being super-computers, and everything), it could still be a few months before the Heat Sinks are produced and in sufficent numbers for the Alliance to notice; a few months more to examin them, and then begin working on modifying their own weapons-- we already know it took some time to get the Alliance to take them up, and then for the general spread throughout the galaxy-- it could be done, but it seems a bit pushing it for EVERYONE to be using them, and for Shep. to know about them on waking up (although that could just be a design oversight in the script -- maybe "It won't fire" would have been better)

[Avissel]

Thezezeal wrote...
Whilst that makes sense, it still seems to be rather pushing it just how fast they spread. Let's say that it took the Geth two-weeks to come up with this (with them being super-computers, and everything), it could still be a few months before the Heat Sinks are produced and in sufficent numbers for the Alliance to notice; a few months more to examin them, and then begin working on modifying their own weapons-- we already know it took some time to get the Alliance to take them up, and then for the general spread throughout the galaxy-- it could be done, but it seems a bit pushing it for EVERYONE to be using them, and for Shep. to know about them on waking up (although that could just be a design oversight in the script -- maybe "It won't fire" would have been better)

It's a bit of a push, but it's interally possible. War generally bring about great technological refinments.

Now I will not argue that Shep knowing about them upon waking up was a bit of an over sight. I'm sure he could grasp the concept but it would have been good for him to simpley go "Grab a what?"

One of the only actaul plot holes in the game is that the clips are in use by the bots, who were also current time bots, at the crash of the Hugo Gurnsback. That was just sloppy work.

Modifié par Avissel, 20 avril 2011 - 08:58 .

[crimzontearz]

the answer given by the BDF (again...I am not being insulting) to that question is that the thermal clips were a result of the geth studying organic battles during ME1 (during ME1 the geth therefore had no thermal clips because they did not come up with them yet). In other words Thermal Clips were adpoted right after ME1 and mass manufactured in all the galaxy during the time in which Shepard was out cold .

A stretch...but not a retcon yet

[Last Vizard]

When i first heard about the Thermal clips i assumed they would work like:
you can only carry six or seven
when used your fire rate and damage goes through the roof
they would be like the normal weapon mod but you only have so many each level... what happened to weapon mods?

[Last Vizard]

crimzontearz wrote...

the answer given by the BDF (again...I am not being insulting) to that question is that the thermal clips were a result of the geth studying organic battles during ME1 (during ME1 the geth therefore had no thermal clips because they did not come up with them yet). In other words Thermal Clips were adpoted right after ME1 and mass manufactured in all the galaxy during the time in which Shepard was out cold .

A stretch...but not a retcon yet

that is total retcon, what Military would adopt something that made Logistics more complicated? now defence turrents need Thermal clips and such?.... do ships need these clips too now?

[Thezezeal]

Last Vizard wrote...
that is total retcon, what Military would adopt something that made Logistics more complicated? now defence turrents need Thermal clips and such?.... do ships need these clips too now?

You know, that would be hilarious:
Shep : Garrus, fire the phalax (sp) cannon!
Garrus : I can't.
Shep : Why the heck not?
Garrus : We're out of thermal clips...
[Cut to a Reaper blasting the Normandy 3 to pieces]
Reaper 1: Foolish organics, they never stood a chance.
Reaper 2: Yes, Our plan to spread inferior technology was completely successful...
[Both laugh]

[Last Vizard]

Thezezeal wrote...

Last Vizard wrote...
that is total retcon, what Military would adopt something that made Logistics more complicated? now defence turrents need Thermal clips and such?.... do ships need these clips too now?

You know, that would be hilarious:
Shep : Garrus, fire the phalax (sp) cannon!
Garrus : I can't.
Shep : Why the heck not?
Garrus : We're out of thermal clips...
[Cut to a Reaper blasting the Normandy 3 to pieces]
Reaper 1: Foolish organics, they never stood a chance.
Reaper 2: Yes, Our plan to spread inferior technology was completely successful...
[Both laugh]

^this LOL

[crimzontearz]

I never said it made sense...also...geth tech seems not to need heatsinks since the geth cannon on Overlord can shoot indefinitely...

Whatever I am still with the OP, Thermal clips need to go

Also a RETCON is a "RETROACTIVE CONTINUITY" it would have been a retcon if they said "they always used heatsinks, nothing changed, it was always thag way"

[Thezezeal]

crimzontearz wrote...
Also a RETCON is a "RETROACTIVE CONTINUITY" it would have been a retcon if they said "they always used heatsinks, nothing changed, it was always thag way"

I think this is one of the two big issues with this topic:

1. People not distinguishing between Lore and Gameplay: in gameplay, Thermal Clips ARE Ammo; in Lore, they're not-- most people seem to fall either Game-play only, or Lore only, which causes some issues.

2. People mis-using "Ret-con". As you say, Ret Cons are basically changingsomething in the past-- this is a change in the present. I think what a lot of people mean is it's an "Illogical Change" (whether actually, or from their perspective).

[Last Vizard]

Imperium Alpha wrote...

Last Vizard wrote...

crimzontearz wrote...

the answer given by the BDF (again...I am not being insulting) to that question is that the thermal clips were a result of the geth studying organic battles during ME1 (during ME1 the geth therefore had no thermal clips because they did not come up with them yet). In other words Thermal Clips were adpoted right after ME1 and mass manufactured in all the galaxy during the time in which Shepard was out cold .

A stretch...but not a retcon yet

that is total retcon, what Military would adopt something that made Logistics more complicated? now defence turrents need Thermal clips and such?.... do ships need these clips too now?

Hummm... Let think about that. Never shooting... or shooting when you want for the price of putting some crate of Thermal Clip with the fuel reserve in the next supply... I'd go with the Termal Clip. In one crate i'm pretty sure you can put hundred of thermal clip...

It's not like the big organisation and factions can't handle supply. <_<

so what happens in a long drawn out war where troops get cut off?  i think your troops will use Thermal clips with no actual benefit while my troops will use weapons that do not require anything.... we'd see how long your Logistics last.

[Last Vizard]

crimzontearz wrote...

I never said it made sense...also...geth tech seems not to need heatsinks since the geth cannon on Overlord can shoot indefinitely...

Whatever I am still with the OP, Thermal clips need to go

Also a RETCON is a "RETROACTIVE CONTINUITY" it would have been a retcon if they said "they always used heatsinks, nothing changed, it was always thag way"

what about Jacobs loyalty mission? they had thermal clips.

[Thezezeal]

Last Vizard wrote...
what about Jacobs loyalty mission? they had thermal clips.

Game Mechanics  And a missed-opportunity, really: it could have been cool to have limited ammo, and play up the whole no-thermal clips aspect, maybe even add special melee weapons, or just have a scene where you grab one of the old-style, with Shep. saying something like "I used to have one just like this... must have fired a million shots out of it back on the Citadel..."

[crimzontearz]

I never stated Thermal clips are lore-wise ammo

The change to Thermal clips is very, again ask any soldier who spent time on the field if he would rather have

A: a weapon that will de facto have unlimited ammo as long as he does not use it as a hose (and allow for a heat vent in case it does overheat which is unlikely)

or

B: a weapon that will stop shooting altogether unless you load it with very limited heatsinks