411 réponses à ce sujet

[Praetor Knight]

Nyoka wrote...

Using the omnitool or a power to cool down the weapon... why not use the omnitool or a power to kill your enemies instead, and then walk some steps forward until you find a thermal clip?

It could be limited to the combat classes.

[MassEffect762]

Braag wrote...

MassEffect762 wrote...

Braag wrote...

I still don't understand why some people hate thermal clips.

Speaking for myself I don't see the point of ammo as it is currently applied other than to appease shooter fans.

Really?

So I guess all those guns in Mass Effect are there to appease the shooter fans as well.

In ME1 the weapons self-cooled and had unlimited(gameplay mechanic) ammo.

If the weapons had used ammo(gameplay mechanic) back in ME1 this wouldn't be an issue.

If ME2 however had added ammo(thermal clips) while not entirely ignoring the firearms ability to cool overtime(ME1)(slowly if neccessary) then it could imo also pass as a new gameplay mechanic.

They ignored the firearms ability to cool(overtime) for no reason imo.(IRL save time/money)

I find it curious that medigel healing took a back seat to regen health as well.

That's how I see it, at least many folks like it.

It's a cheap gimmick to me.

[Endurium]

I wouldn't mind the clips except that enemies in ME2 have a lot more health than enemies in ME1 so I'm burning a lot of ammo and not getting much from corpses (I've watched ammo disappear before I could pick it up).

Sure, we replenish by returning to the Normandy, but that's not always possible, and rarely efficient.

[didymos1120]

Nyoka wrote...

Using the omnitool or a power to cool down the weapon... why not use the omnitool or a power to kill your enemies instead, and then walk some steps forward until you find a thermal clip?

I can see the rationale with this though.  Omni-tools are supposed to be able to fabricate stuff in the field.  However, this would make more sense if they brought back the pool of general-purpose omni-gel from ME1, and you had to deplete it to make clips.  But since they've ditched the whole "Omni-gel solves any problem" thing, there's not really a place for that sort of mechanic anymore.

[didymos1120]

MassEffect762 wrote...

They ignored the firearms ability to cool(overtime) for no reason imo.(IRL save time/money)

They didn't ignore it.  There's a fully implemented hybrid system that's just disabled: testers didn't like it, and the devs didn't really care for it either, so they never bothered sinking resources into balancing it. And why should they if in their judgement it wasn't the way to go?  They simply made the choice that they thought was of the most benefit to their game, and put their resources into that.  There's nothing wrong with that in the least, even if you personally don't agree.

[Inquisitor Recon]

didymos1120 wrote...
There's a fully implemented hybrid system that's just disabled: testers didn't like it, and the devs didn't really care for it either

I've never heard of this hybrid system left in the game's code somewhere. Care to spare some details on it?

[Praetor Knight]

ReconTeam wrote...

I've never heard of this hybrid system left in the game's code somewhere. Care to spare some details on it?

Here's a post from Christina Norman on that: http://social.biowar...2912/13#5690482

[Malanek]

Endurium wrote...

I wouldn't mind the clips except that enemies in ME2 have a lot more health than enemies in ME1 so I'm burning a lot of ammo and not getting much from corpses (I've watched ammo disappear before I could pick it up).

What???? Completely the opposite. Enemies in ME2 go down much faster than ME1. But then so do you.

[didymos1120]

ReconTeam wrote...

didymos1120 wrote...
There's a fully implemented hybrid system that's just disabled: testers didn't like it, and the devs didn't really care for it either

I've never heard of this hybrid system left in the game's code somewhere. Care to spare some details on it?

Really? I'm surprised. It's been talked about a lot.  It's a simple coalesced edit:

http://social.biowar...79522/2#2186453

You can even tweak the rate of cooldown.  Actually, if you scrutinize the early gameplay videos, you can see that was the sytem they were using for a time before going to just straight clips.

Modifié par didymos1120, 13 avril 2011 - 01:56 .

[Osiris273]

Avissel wrote...

The problem with the old system was that it could be cheesed so that you could just use the right mods and fire forever. The only change I would make would make would a "fail safe" for if you did run out of ammo. Basically the gun would be able to only fire a few shots before entering a cool off phase, like in 1. This would continue to make controlling your fire important, without frustrating those of us who miss a lot.

[TheDFO]

For me, it comes down to 2 things.

First, it has tech lore issues. It's been talked about ad nauseam, so I won't bother with it. Besides, it really is nitpicky and really isn't that big a deal to me (just a minor annoyance).

Second, some classes really get smashed with the "hunt for ammo" fun after each battle. Any class can side step this by changing weapons. That makes sense for the Soldier, but it doesn't fit gameplay all that much for the Vanguard, and really doesn't make sense for the Infiltrator (it forces the player to move forward, which is about the opposite of what a sniper would be doing).

I would say the easiest would be just having us pick up the ammo automatically (or give us a wider pick up radius) after combat. I would personally prefer rebalancing the ME1 style combat (because...you know...it is actually different from other shooters, where as ammo based shoots with magic powers have been going on for ages. At least since the 2nd Dark Forces game way back when. Of course, it's also been further homogenized by adding in the cover system, health regen, and the "two hits and your vision is covered with red goo" stuff that every one and their mother uses, but that's another debate.

[Anacronian Stryx]

I like the idea of having endless ammo but two internal heat clips you rotate - 1 cooling off and the other in use - With the mod system coming back in ME3 they could even ad a third heart clip as a mod.

[Lunatic LK47]

Bluko wrote...

Well OP that's not going to happen. It's pretty much a done deal at this point that thermal clips are going to stay.

It's a sad reality to me, cause Mass Effect did something to actually differentiate itself from every other shooter out there. Mass Effect as it is now is basically like any other shooter, except with magic powers. And plenty of games have done the shooting + magic abilities before as well. So one of the interesting things Mass Effect had going for it they scrapped. Mostly I think to cater to individuals who can't ever let go of the trigger, since I never found overheating bothersome. Which makes no sense, since with the addition of ammo you now must control your fire and make every single shot count. I'm going to be honest the ammo constraints has made the game less interesting, since it's pretty telling of how many enemies you're expected to encounter. And if there are more you have to go to a resupply corner or walk over a deady body while getting shot.

Uh, no one is immune to Sabotage and Damping. If I got hit with both of those at the same time, I'd be out of combat for TWO ****ING MINUTES.

[bald man in a boat]

Too late. Time to get over it.

[Bluko]

Praetor Shepard wrote...

Bluko wrote...

Thermal clips were added to purely make the game more accessible to people who've only played shooters like CoD. It's kind of grating to see all the Devs out there fall to the pressure of big titles like Halo and CoD.

Why is this argument brought up from time to time?

Because it's inevitable!

Mass Effect or at least Mass Effect 2 is a shooter, true enough it is a TPS though. Perhaps it would be more fair to compare ME2 to Gears of War since it bares a number of similarities? Which makes me wonder considering they both use the Unreal engine. I will not be surprised if ME3 has chainsaw bayonets, in fact pretty sure the G.I. article had some concept art of that...

Praetor Shepard wrote..

There is not much info given by Bioware, so speaking for myself, I have made some assumptions as to how they can work based on what I know about contemporary weapons and from what we are given in ME2. I prefer to believe that Thermal Clips can exist with minor tweaks and improvements to combat in ME3 and address concerns about scarcity at the same time.

I wonder if someone from Bioware can address Thermal Clips at some point also, I'd like to know more.

But I also guess you didn't read others' posts in this thread when you made your post.

Well I'm pretty sure Devs have commented on the discussion before. But I think the gist of it has always been if you don't like Thermal Clips the way they are that's just too bad.

Actually I did read other's posts. I still wanted to give my 2 cents though.

Regardless I think it's silly to have people run around looking for spare ammo. The other thing, although not sure how relevant this is, but it can be hard to pick up thermals clips at times. Even if it's just lying on the ground. Then there are issues like somtimes clips fly off of enemies into chasms or sometimes the drop rates are just stupid. It was just wasn't implemented very well, and certain weapons are very much lacking in ammunition reserves, while some are rather abundant.

It just strikes me as odd that if they can make thermal clips universal for all weapons (seems unlikely every weapon would fire the same size "round"), why aren't they capable of dissipating heat? Would it really be difficult for a soldier to carry a cooling pack or some such so they could re-use heatsinks? It seems needfully wasteful.

But who cares how it works and all that nerd stuff, I just want to shoot stuff! Yeah!

Sorry, this topic has always irked me more then anything else in regards to ME2. When I played ME2 the first time I was basically like "What the heck there's ammo now?" Admittedly the shooting itself is better (although I miss ME1's effects as well, the woefully slow tracer rounds don't seem right...) but it's not just not something I've been real happy with. I know most people don't care since for them the game is all about cinematic conversations and "pew pew pew!" So it doesn't really matter if it makes sense or not in the end, as long as it's cool. Speaking for myself though I like things to make a certain amount of sense. And frankly to me the addition of thermal clips makes as much sense as Garrus' having Biotics.

[Zulu_DFA]

Thermal ammo sucks and needs to be removed. However, I doubt it will.

[Inquisitor Recon]

didymos1120 wrote...
Really? I'm surprised. It's been talked about a lot.  It's a simple coalesced edit:

http://social.biowar...79522/2#2186453

You can even tweak the rate of cooldown.  Actually, if you scrutinize the early gameplay videos, you can see that was the sytem they were using for a time before going to just straight clips.

Thanks, somehow I missed this.

[Zulu_DFA]

OrlesianWardenCommander wrote...

NO Just NO keep the thermal clips they are way better and more realistic......

Lol.

What is more realistic about them?

That they lie around places they couldn't possibly lie,

the fact that nobody but Shepard ever runs out of them,

or that they are "universal", but only until you pick them up?

[didymos1120]

Bluko wrote...
 I know most people don't care since for them the game is all about cinematic conversations and "pew pew pew!"

Way to make sweeping generalizations there. I mean, it couldn't possibly be that lots of people think clips are an improvement for other reasons. Or don't have big lore hangups because they see the discrepancies as purely due to gameplay considerations.

Modifié par didymos1120, 13 avril 2011 - 02:26 .

[Someone With Mass]

I don't see a problem with the clips. Just point, shoot and **** less about how it should be. Simple.

[Bluko]

Lunatic LK47 wrote...

Uh, no one is immune to Sabotage and Damping. If I got hit with both of those at the same time, I'd be out of combat for TWO ****ING MINUTES.

Yeah but how often does that happen? There are a few instances where enemies will actually use abilities against you. Only time it's ever happened to me that I can recall is BDtS.

I'll admit it is somewhat bad in terms of gameplay. Although it's not like you can't use an assualt rifle or shotgun as say an Adept if you really need to. So unless you get hit with Sabotage multiple times you can still fight.

[Zulu_DFA]

didymos1120 wrote...

ReconTeam wrote...

didymos1120 wrote...
There's a fully implemented hybrid system that's just disabled: testers didn't like it, and the devs didn't really care for it either

I've never heard of this hybrid system left in the game's code somewhere. Care to spare some details on it?

Really? I'm surprised. It's been talked about a lot.  It's a simple coalesced edit:

http://social.biowar...79522/2#2186453

You can even tweak the rate of cooldown.  Actually, if you scrutinize the early gameplay videos, you can see that was the sytem they were using for a time before going to just straight clips.

The problem with that is that the cooldown rate is universal for all weapons, so either your sniper rifles cool down faster than you can possibly squeeze shots, of your assault rifles take forever to cooldown. I guess this was the problem they couldn't care to solve.

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 13 avril 2011 - 02:38 .

[Stukovkh]

I loved the thermal clips in ME2, I mean... I guess you could do without the ammo... and just have a reload every time it overheats, but discharging the heated slug was just to sick. I would be sad to see it go.

[Bluko]

didymos1120 wrote...

Bluko wrote...
 I know most people don't care since for them the game is all about cinematic conversations and "pew pew pew!"

Way to make sweeping generalizations there. I mean, it couldn't possibly be that lots of people think clips are an improvement for other reasons. Or don't have big lore hangups because they see the discrepancies as purely due to gameplay considerations.

Huh? It makes the "shooting" faster, simpler, and easier right? I don't think it's made the game any more challenging or in-depth however. At least not the ammo part of the gameplay. Since ME2 isn't even that difficult on Insanity. It's essentially the same thing except instead of 3-5 second cooldown period, you now have a much quicker reload. Okay maybe you like the idea of ammunition and having x number of shots, but that's exactly my point. It's a conventional shooter mechanic to have a limited amount of ammo.

Look I know somethings must be ignored or sacrificed in order to make gameplay more fun. It's just in this case I feel they went  a little too far. Would it be cool if Garrus had biotics? I'm sure, but would it really make sense? It's basically the same deal for me.

[didymos1120]

Zulu_DFA wrote...
 I guess this was the problem they couldn't care to solve.

There was no "the problem" that somehow made them use just clips alone. That's simply the state it was left in when the system was dropped for a whole host of reasons that can be lumped together as "gameplay", and they weren't going to spend a bunch of time tweaking something they didn't think was the best way to go.  There just isn't a simple "Thermal clips are in the game because of THIS!" answer, and I don't know why people insist on trying to find one. They went with clips because they thought that made for the best game.  Regardless of what you or I or anyone thinks of that decision and the result of it, that is why they made it.