32 réponses à ce sujet

[haroldhardluck]

The traditional story in a CRPG is your Player Character searches for and kills the Ultimate Bad Guy (UBG), thereby saving the world. That was the story in DAO.

In DA2, Orsino is not the UBG. He's just a mage who is out of his league when dealing with Meredith. The Grand Cleric is simply a devout believer whose narrow interpretation of scripture means she fails to take decisive action to prevent the civil war that is brewing between the templars and mages that Meredith is formenting. Meredith is a zealot but she is also under the influence of the idol. The idol is clearly cursed but that does not make it the UBG.

The only person in the game whose actions lead to civil war and the end of world as it stands is Hawke. This means that Hawke is the UBG in DA2 and we all have been playing the villain and not the hero in DA2. At the beginning of the game, it seems to be the belief of the Seekers that they are searching for the UBG.

Harold

[EmperorSahlertz]

BioWare themselves said a long time ago, that tehre would be no Ultimate Bad Guy in DA2, and that the game was all about, what made Hawke make the decission he did at the Gallows.

[Mnemnosyne]

Much of the reason why DA2's story is superior to most other CRPG's in recent history is specifically because there is no ultimate bad guy. They screwed up some of the execution in Act 3, but if it had been polished better and a few minor changes made to the presentation it would have come off perfectly with no 'bad guy' to speak of, and been an excellent story of life happening.

[Crossroads_Wanderer]

It's an interesting thought, except that the mage/templar war would have happened anyway. Hawke is mainly around to minimize the damage. Hawke's role isn't that of any stereotypical character in fantasy; it's somewhat more cynical, maybe, but also a bit more realistic, in that things will happen as they will and you're there just to survive it and maybe have a little say in the flow of things.

[Rifneno]

It's the lyrium idol.

What's more evil than an apparently hateful sentient statue made of magic drugs? 

[Alamar2078]

If you're looking for a UBG the closest you'll get isn't Hawke but Anders/Justice. YMMV

[Rifneno]

Alamar2078 wrote...

If you're looking for a UBG the closest you'll get isn't Hawke but Anders/Justice. YMMV

You cannot be serious.  Even if you totally condemn Anders, Meredith still kills a lot more innocent people.  Hell, Bartrand might have a higher body count and he was completely devoid of any redeeming qualities.

[Alamar2078]

I'm quite serious. Anders with forethought decided to start what in effect will be a world war. Who has more blood on their hands now???

Edit:  In terms of preplanned deception Anders beats out the competition fairly easily.  Meredith doesn't seem to ever mislead you ... I.E. you know what to expect.   Orisino is involved [indirectly] in the murder of Hawke's mother but otherwise seems to be a voice of reason.   On the other hand Anders/Justice/Vengance is literally a ticking time bomb -- he just didn't have the good taste to choose to just blow himself up.

Modifié par Alamar2078, 12 avril 2011 - 11:52 .

[Rifneno]

Alamar2078 wrote...

I'm quite serious. Anders with forethought decided to start what in effect will be a world war. Who has more blood on their hands now???

Meredith, the one who called for the Right of Annulment.  And she was trying to get it before Anders blew up the Chantry.

[Alamar2078]

Rifneno wrote...

Alamar2078 wrote...

I'm quite serious. Anders with forethought decided to start what in effect will be a world war. Who has more blood on their hands now???

Meredith, the one who called for the Right of Annulment.  And she was trying to get it before Anders blew up the Chantry.

Meredith wanted to kill all the mages in the gallows.  I don't know the numbers but I'm sure that more people will die as a result of the war than what Meredith would have killed.   Also when was she under the effect of the idol ... this may mitigate who was more "evil" and the UBG.

EDIT:  Wasn't Anders planning to start the war before Meredith publicly called for the Rite of Annulment??  I'm not sure but this would be something to consider if Anders started first.

Modifié par Alamar2078, 12 avril 2011 - 11:56 .

[TJPags]

Alamar2078 wrote...

If you're looking for a UBG the closest you'll get isn't Hawke but Anders/Justice. YMMV

I'd agree with this.

Clearly, as I've said before, I don't think Hawke did anything to start a war.  That title goes to Anders, and nobody else.

To the extent people want to say Meredith is the one who called for the Right of Annulment, or that she wanted it before that, etc., I say this:  What she wanted before is not important, she was shot down.  It was Anders who gave her the legal authority to make the decision herself, and gave her the excuse to use that authority.

[Rifneno]

Alamar2078 wrote...

Rifneno wrote...

Alamar2078 wrote...

I'm quite serious. Anders with forethought decided to start what in effect will be a world war. Who has more blood on their hands now???

Meredith, the one who called for the Right of Annulment.  And she was trying to get it before Anders blew up the Chantry.

Meredith wanted to kill all the mages in the gallows.  I don't know the numbers but I'm sure that more people will die as a result of the war than what Meredith would have killed.   Also when was she under the effect of the idol ... this may mitigate who was more "evil" and the UBG.

EDIT:  Wasn't Anders planning to start the war before Meredith publicly called for the Rite of Annulment??  I'm not sure but this would be something to consider if Anders started first.

Meredith wanted to commit genocide, Anders wanted to fight for freedom.  But more importantly, I love that Meredith being affected by the idol lets her off the hook, but Anders having a twisted spirit in his head doesn't mean anything.  And before you say it, no, there was no precedent for Justice twisting, he had no way of knowing that was even possible.

[Rifneno]

TJPags wrote...

Alamar2078 wrote...

If you're looking for a UBG the closest you'll get isn't Hawke but Anders/Justice. YMMV

I'd agree with this.

Clearly, as I've said before, I don't think Hawke did anything to start a war.  That title goes to Anders, and nobody else.

To the extent people want to say Meredith is the one who called for the Right of Annulment, or that she wanted it before that, etc., I say this:  What she wanted before is not important, she was shot down.  It was Anders who gave her the legal authority to make the decision herself, and gave her the excuse to use that authority.

The Chantry gave her the authority.  Period.  End of story.

[TJPags]

Rifneno wrote...

TJPags wrote...

Alamar2078 wrote...

If you're looking for a UBG the closest you'll get isn't Hawke but Anders/Justice. YMMV

I'd agree with this.

Clearly, as I've said before, I don't think Hawke did anything to start a war.  That title goes to Anders, and nobody else.

To the extent people want to say Meredith is the one who called for the Right of Annulment, or that she wanted it before that, etc., I say this:  What she wanted before is not important, she was shot down.  It was Anders who gave her the legal authority to make the decision herself, and gave her the excuse to use that authority.

The Chantry gave her the authority.  Period.  End of story.

No, the dead Grand Cleric with no successor gave her the authority.

And who killed the Grand Cleric?

Yup - Anders actions gave her that authority.

[Hurbster]

Anders was well aware that Justice had morphed into Vengeance, he did say early on it was his rage that did so after they joined.

I's say the UBG was the plot, to be honest. Especially the 3rd act, very poor.

[HighMoon]

OGB as UBG! I do love a good RPG. Now where did my USB go?

[haroldhardluck]

Crossroads_Wanderer wrote...
It's an interesting thought, except that the mage/templar war would have happened anyway. Hawke is mainly around to minimize the damage. Hawke's role isn't that of any stereotypical character in fantasy; it's somewhat more cynical, maybe, but also a bit more realistic, in that things will happen as they will and you're there just to survive it and maybe have a little say in the flow of things.

Hawke is the catalyst that made the mage/templar war happen now instead of later. That makes Hawke important. It is realistic in that most evil happens when people try to do good. As the saying goes, the road to Hell is paved with good intentions. In Hawke's case the good intention is to establish a new life for himself and his family and to prevent Kirkwall from being destroyed as Lothering was. The result is the opposite as what was intended and he ends up on the run again.

Harold

[haroldhardluck]

TJPags wrote...

Alamar2078 wrote...
If you're looking for a UBG the closest you'll get isn't Hawke but Anders/Justice. YMMV

I'd agree with this.
Clearly, as I've said before, I don't think Hawke did anything to start a war.  That title goes to Anders, and nobody else.

OTOH Hawke helped Anders get the ingredients for the gunpowder and sneak it into the Chantry. Again Hawke is a catalyst that makes something happen that might not have succeeded if he had not helped.

In the archetypical CRPG, getting to the UBG requires first finding and killing all his minions. In DA2 Hawke helps many people do deeds that lead to the final civil war. One of those deeds is planting the bomb. So in that sense, Anders is Hawke's minion however inadvertently.

Harold

[TJPags]

haroldhardluck wrote...

TJPags wrote...

Alamar2078 wrote...
If you're looking for a UBG the closest you'll get isn't Hawke but Anders/Justice. YMMV

I'd agree with this.
Clearly, as I've said before, I don't think Hawke did anything to start a war.  That title goes to Anders, and nobody else.

OTOH Hawke helped Anders get the ingredients for the gunpowder and sneak it into the Chantry. Again Hawke is a catalyst that makes something happen that might not have succeeded if he had not helped.

In the archetypical CRPG, getting to the UBG requires first finding and killing all his minions. In DA2 Hawke helps many people do deeds that lead to the final civil war. One of those deeds is planting the bomb. So in that sense, Anders is Hawke's minion however inadvertently.

Harold

Except that, if Hawke doesn't do those things, Anders blows up the Chantry anyway.  So, Hawke not necessary.

[getterg]

Filament wrote...

Clearly Meredith is at least partially responsible, it's not like she had to use that newfound authority just because it was there... she wanted to annul the mages.

OR YA KNOW...IT COULD HAVE BEEN THAT RED LYRIUM MESSING WITH HER HEAD.

She even STATES, in the last battle, that she might not be doing the right thing.

[Morroian]

haroldhardluck wrote...

OTOH Hawke helped Anders get the ingredients for the gunpowder and sneak it into the Chantry. Again Hawke is a catalyst that makes something happen that might not have succeeded if he had not helped.

You can refuse to do it can't you. Anders gets the ingredients anyway.

[mesmerizedish]

Filament wrote...

However, there is an OGB, who happens to be everyone in DAO and DA2, and several forum members.

The UBG is the OGB.