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[Ieolus]

haroldhardluck wrote...

In the archetypical CRPG, getting to the UBG requires first finding and killing all his minions. In DA2 Hawke helps many people do deeds that lead to the final civil war. One of those deeds is planting the bomb. So in that sense, Anders is Hawke's minion however inadvertently.

Harold

No way, Hawke is Ander's minion clearly.  Hawke helped Ander's gather the ingredients and then helped Anders plant the bomb.
Any UBG worth his salt has some kind of plan up his/her sleave.  Hawke has nothing, other than living it up in Hightown... Anders, he is seeking revenge.

[Ieolus]

Rifneno wrote...
Meredith wanted to commit genocide, Anders wanted to fight for freedom.  But more importantly, I love that Meredith being affected by the idol lets her off the hook, but Anders having a twisted spirit in his head doesn't mean anything.  And before you say it, no, there was no precedent for Justice twisting, he had no way of knowing that was even possible.

LOL.  One man's freedom fighter is another man's terrorist.

Whatever Meredith wanted, she didn't get in the end.  Anders though, he got exactly what he wanted.  He is definately the UBG.

Btw, I sided with the mages, and even let Anders live and stay in my party for the last fight (what a joke that was).  However, I still wanted to kill the piece of crap for lieing to me, I just couldn't bring myself to do it.

Modifié par Ieolus, 13 avril 2011 - 04:09 .

[Rifneno]

TJPags wrote...

Rifneno wrote...

TJPags wrote...

Alamar2078 wrote...

If you're looking for a UBG the closest you'll get isn't Hawke but Anders/Justice. YMMV

I'd agree with this.

Clearly, as I've said before, I don't think Hawke did anything to start a war.  That title goes to Anders, and nobody else.

To the extent people want to say Meredith is the one who called for the Right of Annulment, or that she wanted it before that, etc., I say this:  What she wanted before is not important, she was shot down.  It was Anders who gave her the legal authority to make the decision herself, and gave her the excuse to use that authority.

The Chantry gave her the authority.  Period.  End of story.

No, the dead Grand Cleric with no successor gave her the authority.

And who killed the Grand Cleric?

Yup - Anders actions gave her that authority.

So if she choked on an apple, then an apple picker was the UBG?  This is incredibly stupid.  You can't blame Anders for the actions of others while at the same time claim Meredith is only responsible for herself because you feel Anders betrayed you.  It doesn't work that way.

[Super_Fr33k]

The OP expresses disdain for overused ultimate bad guys in games, including in DAO, and I think the fatigue is somewhat justified, but I think UBGs aren't the real problem.

The real problem, as I see it, is apocalyptic story syndrome. The acronym is ASS. You're welcome.

The trouble with ASS is that it distracts you from emotionally connecting. What happens is the bad guy becomes a force of nature, rather than a relatable individual. It spends so much time behind the scenes, or obstructed by the world-shattering consequences of its actions, that you don't properly confront or understand it. When you ask people who the villain of DAO is, are they more likely to say Loghain, or the Archdemon? Loghain was the better villain, while the Archdemon was the actual UBG. The other problem with ASS is that it simplifies motives.

Apocalyptic story lines tend to create stark, good versus evil scenarios that don't make you question whether the villain is somehow justified. This weakens the story.

My best example of getting UBG right? Irenicus. He had sweeping and catastrophic plans, but you never lost a personal connection to him, and you empathized with him because his fall from grace was so extreme. The Archdemon, meanwhile, was a wasted opportunity. It was never developed as a character, despite the Warden immediately being mentally linked to it. It would have been awesome to have in-depth, dreamworld confrontations with it. And yet all it did was gather darkspawn and roar. Bummer.

ASS hit DAO pretty hard.

[Alamar2078]

Rifneno wrote...

Alamar2078 wrote...

Rifneno wrote...

Alamar2078 wrote...

I'm quite serious. Anders with forethought decided to start what in effect will be a world war. Who has more blood on their hands now???

Meredith, the one who called for the Right of Annulment.  And she was trying to get it before Anders blew up the Chantry.

Meredith wanted to kill all the mages in the gallows.  I don't know the numbers but I'm sure that more people will die as a result of the war than what Meredith would have killed.   Also when was she under the effect of the idol ... this may mitigate who was more "evil" and the UBG.

EDIT:  Wasn't Anders planning to start the war before Meredith publicly called for the Rite of Annulment??  I'm not sure but this would be something to consider if Anders started first.

Meredith wanted to commit genocide, Anders wanted to fight for freedom.  But more importantly, I love that Meredith being affected by the idol lets her off the hook, but Anders having a twisted spirit in his head doesn't mean anything.  And before you say it, no, there was no precedent for Justice twisting, he had no way of knowing that was even possible.

"Anders" is off the hook and I've said so myself.   I went out of my way to say "Anders/Justice/Vengance" in my earlier posts.  References to Anders in latter posts were just abbreviations.

IMHO Both Anders and Justice "died" when they merged.  What was left was the worst parts of both with just enough of an echo of good Anders for me to really feel sorry for him.

Modifié par Alamar2078, 13 avril 2011 - 06:16 .

[haroldhardluck]

Super_Fr33k wrote...
The OP expresses disdain for overused ultimate bad guys in games, including in DAO, and I think the fatigue is somewhat justified, but I think UBGs aren't the real problem.
The real problem, as I see it, is apocalyptic story syndrome. The acronym is ASS. You're welcome.

The first CRPG I ever played was Pool of Radiance which was definitely not an ASS story but it had a UBG. The Forgotten Realms was not going to end if Phlan was not saved from the UBG. At worst the reclaimation of Phlan would be aborted. Most PnP D&D campaigns were not ASS stories.

It is traditional to have a UBG in CRPGs but it is not necessary to have an apocalyptic ending. A CRPG without a UBG would be like a fairy tale without the "happily ever after". I think a lot of the criticism of DA2 comes from the fact that it does not have a UBG and nothing is saved. It breaks with tradition in all aspects and is out of the comfort zone for many players.

So I have no disdain for the traditional UBG/ASS CRPG. All I wanted to point out, there is really is a UBG in DA2 but it appears to be Hawke although Anders might be considered one as well. But as the Seeker finds out from questioning Varric, nothing is as she thought.

Harold

[Fallstar]

Alamar2078 wrote...

If you're looking for a UBG the closest you'll get isn't Hawke but Anders/Justice. YMMV

JAnders killed less than two dozen people though. Meredith is responsible for the deaths of many more, who were mostly innocent. Also, did the Grand Cleric not really get on your nerves? Why couldn't she pick a side? Even if she'd picked the side of the Templars, that would have been better than making no decision at all. She was basically a weak character who was intelligent enough to see where things are going, to be fair, but then she does nothing?

[ImoenBaby]

There are a lot of baddies in the game. Kirkwall itself is corrupt - I'm reading into the Enigma of Kirkwall here, as well as referring to the various social injustices that burden the city.

People like Meredith and Anders are shaped by the world they live in, and this is long before their involvement with idols and fade spirits. Their society is constructed in a way that damages a lot of people unfairly, and society as a whole is no single person's fault, but something that changes when everyone changes. And as much as I want to say that I can't absolve them of all personal responsibility, they were also both involuntairily twisted by outside forces. Neither seems to have had any clue how they would lose themselves.

I think Bioware has said there is no UBG in the game, but I'd say life in Thedas can be a bastard. Some people are tired of getting the short end of the stick, or even holding the stick in the first place.