39 réponses à ce sujet

[Steve236]

With the Circle of magi in full revolt and the Chantry just about ready to commit genocide against all magic user the question remain is what nation will support the war. Or more speciffacly which side will they support.  Because i doubt both the Chantry and the Circle have the manpower or resource to simply duke it out between them.  Theres also a chance that old hatred and grudges will show up again and nation will use this war as an excuse to attack other.

This is what i think the kingdoms in Thedas will do:

Orlais:Flat out support the Chantry. They may also use the war to justify another invasion into fereldan.

Antiva:Neutral. Well as neutral and paid assassins can be,it will depend on which side throws the most gold at them.

Anderfels:Very Neutral, the the nation is under Grey Warden control. but if the chantry makes crazy demand that they hand over all mages in the Warden i have to doubt theyll defends themselves.

Fereldan:I guess it depends on whos in control of the throne. but i have a feeling Fereldan will support the Circle.

Tevinter:Flat out support the Circle. The Tevinter can use the Circle as a proxy army to strike at the Chantry.

Freemarches:Depends on who the Champion of Kirkwall supported in DA2.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Why do everyone believe Ferelden will support the circle? Fereldans are just as much Andrastians as any other nation. They will see the mages rising up as the potential start of another Imperium, just like all the other Andrastians.

[blothulfur]

The qunari wholeheartedly support your war.

[Torax]

Should point out that it's hard for the Chantry to want to just kill all the mages. The Templars rebelled from the Chantry on top of it. Probably because the Chantry was trying to be Neutral on the subject and wouldn't give the Templars the orders they would have liked. Which kind of hints to me that the Templars may have wanted to Annul all the Circles and the Chantry probably said "No".

[Torax]

blothulfur wrote...

The qunari wholeheartedly support your war.

The Qunari are probably just sitting and eating cookies and cakes with the dalish and thinking "We can be friends when they all die right?"

[Steve236]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Why do everyone believe Ferelden will support the circle? Fereldans are just as much Andrastians as any other nation. They will see the mages rising up as the potential start of another Imperium, just like all the other Andrastians.

It could depend on the situation and whos in charge.

[Torax]

Steve236 wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Why do everyone believe Ferelden will support the circle? Fereldans are just as much Andrastians as any other nation. They will see the mages rising up as the potential start of another Imperium, just like all the other Andrastians.

It could depend on the situation and whos in charge.

Most Fereldons are afraid of mages. Turning them into Toads and so on. So I think the Majority of them would not be in support of mages. Especially if they recall Tevinter and that basically unless you are a mage you are likely a slave in that kind of place. Now if your character was a mage some could argue how the Hero was a Mage to. But I doubt that would help getting most to not look past their fears of mages in general.

[greyman33]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Why do everyone believe Ferelden will support the circle? Fereldans are just as much Andrastians as any other nation. They will see the mages rising up as the potential start of another Imperium, just like all the other Andrastians.

The general line of reasoning here from what I've read around here is that Fereldon would be more sympathetic to the mage cause, at least if Alistair is on the throne, due to his history working with Wynne as well as his dislike for the Templar order.

Also, it is assumed, regardless of who sits on the throne, the reasoning is that the templars and/or (or rather and especially) the Chantry are closely associated with Orlais, and as such relations would be strained at best.

Personally, I think for a combination of these reasons, Fereldon is far more likely to remain politically neutral.  I feel like they would have a ruler who is at least sympathetic to the mage cause, and will be looking over the templar's shoulders with distrust as well.  However, it would not be politically prudent to officially take a side.

With the Kokari Wilds right there to the south, I could see a lot of mages looking there, despite the dangers, as a place to hide out.  So while I don't really see Fereldon sending out troops to support the mages or anything like that, I could imagine south fereldon slowly filling with apostates in hiding.

Another thing to keep in mind in all this, when considering which nations and city-states might take sides, is that the story of Kirkwall cuts both ways in the eyes of the politically powerful.  Kirkwall isn't just a tale of mages rebelling and 'helping' destroy a city.  This is also a story of a Templar commander subverting control of a city from its 'rightful' noble leaders.  Userpers, regardless of their religiosity or cause, do not sit well with those already in power and I'm not sure how many Banns, Dukes, Kings/Queens would be thrilled to let the Templars set up shop in their lands after hearing about Kirkwall.

[LobselVith8]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Why do everyone believe Ferelden will support the circle? Fereldans are just as much Andrastians as any other nation. They will see the mages rising up as the potential start of another Imperium, just like all the other Andrastians.

Because King Alistair is either fighting for the Magi boon and/or harboring apostates in Ferelden, since he admits that while has no control over the Circle of Magi, he does have control over the mages outside of the Circle.

[Ivers0803]

The chantry is not at war with the mages, the mages are at war with the templars

[Joy Divison]

LobselVith8 wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Why do everyone believe Ferelden will support the circle? Fereldans are just as much Andrastians as any other nation. They will see the mages rising up as the potential start of another Imperium, just like all the other Andrastians.

Because King Alistair is either fighting for the Magi boon and/or harboring apostates in Ferelden, since he admits that while has no control over the Circle of Magi, he does have control over the mages outside of the Circle.

I wouldn't be so sure.  Allistair abhors blood magic, which is a favorite weapon in a rebelous mage's aresenal.

Also Ferelden nobility has proven to be a difficult lot to make tow a line.  I do not recall the level of suspicion/disgust toward mages from my Origins playthorugh than I get in Kirkwall, but in no way did I get impression Fereldens had in any way progressive views of magic or were sympathetic to mages.

[primero holodon]

after that stunt Anders pulled I doubt any nation would be eager to jump to the mages defenses.

[LobselVith8]

Joy Divison wrote...

I wouldn't be so sure.  Allistair abhors blood magic, which is a favorite weapon in a rebelous mage's aresenal.

Also Ferelden nobility has proven to be a difficult lot to make tow a line.  I do not recall the level of suspicion/disgust toward mages from my Origins playthorugh than I get in Kirkwall, but in no way did I get impression Fereldens had in any way progressive views of magic or were sympathetic to mages.

Not every mage who wants freedom from the Chantry uses blood magic, and Alistair didn't give heed to the nobles when he placed the Elder of the Alienage on the royal court.

[TEWR]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Why do everyone believe Ferelden will support the circle? Fereldans are just as much Andrastians as any other nation. They will see the mages rising up as the potential start of another Imperium, just like all the other Andrastians.

But Ferelden has a 2 out of 3 chance of being led by a man who has a different opinion on mages than everyone else. Alistair doesn't see them as what people say they are. And since he's the king, the armies would have to answer to him. Especially if the nobility supported The Wardens over Loghain. Plus he has both Arl Eamon and Bann Teagan to help persuade people, as well as Anora's political savvy should he have married her. The Blight in Ferelden was also ended with the help of at least 2 mages, so they might also like that.

[Foolsfolly]

I don't think many nations will side against whatever the Divine says. She's the DA Pope and seemingly more powerful than kings. So if the Divine says, "We have to contain the mage threat" I assume most of the nations of Thedas will agree with her.

I don't see how the mages can win this war. They should have tried something peaceful.....but likely one of them will rise up and cast a big spell that returns the magic or some-such Sandal prophesy.

[EmperorSahlertz]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Why do everyone believe Ferelden will support the circle? Fereldans are just as much Andrastians as any other nation. They will see the mages rising up as the potential start of another Imperium, just like all the other Andrastians.

But Ferelden has a 2 out of 3 chance of being led by a man who has a different opinion on mages than everyone else. Alistair doesn't see them as what people say they are. And since he's the king, the armies would have to answer to him. Especially if the nobility supported The Wardens over Loghain. Plus he has both Arl Eamon and Bann Teagan to help persuade people, as well as Anora's political savvy should he have married her. The Blight in Ferelden was also ended with the help of at least 2 mages, so they might also like that.

Just because he is king, does not make the armies of Ferelden obligated to follow him. Ferelden politics work that way. The king of Ferelden needs the support of the Banns, Arls, and Teyrnirs, to get his army. Each of the nobles individually chooses wether or not to send their troops to the king. Normally the general consensus is to send troops, but if the nobles were to see the king as a dangerous heretic and mage sympathizer, then the flute would probably play a different tune.

[mindblanks2]

Torax wrote...

blothulfur wrote...

The qunari wholeheartedly support your war.

The Qunari are probably just sitting and eating cookies and cakes with the dalish and thinking "We can be friends when they all die right?"

Actually, I think they may have to go to war just because of the cake.  Afterall, Sten was told there would be cake, and the cake is a lie.  We've seen how the Qunari treat those who lie/disagree with them...

[AlexXIV]

primero holodon wrote...

after that stunt Anders pulled I doubt any nation would be eager to jump to the mages defenses.

Well I think the Right of Annullment overshadows whatever Anders did. He blew up the Chantry, they wiped out the Circle. I don't see why people would have more sympathy for the templars/chantry than for the mages just because of the events of Kirkwall.

[AlexXIV]

mindblanks2 wrote...

Torax wrote...

blothulfur wrote...

The qunari wholeheartedly support your war.

The Qunari are probably just sitting and eating cookies and cakes with the dalish and thinking "We can be friends when they all die right?"

Actually, I think they may have to go to war just because of the cake.  Afterall, Sten was told there would be cake, and the cake is a lie.  We've seen how the Qunari treat those who lie/disagree with them...

Also the Qunari think of humans as little overweight kids who shouldn't eat cookies anyway. So they are probably comming to take all the cookies. For the greater good.

Modifié par AlexXIV, 13 avril 2011 - 07:24 .

[IanPolaris]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Just because he is king, does not make the armies of Ferelden obligated to follow him. Ferelden politics work that way. The king of Ferelden needs the support of the Banns, Arls, and Teyrnirs, to get his army. Each of the nobles individually chooses wether or not to send their troops to the king. Normally the general consensus is to send troops, but if the nobles were to see the king as a dangerous heretic and mage sympathizer, then the flute would probably play a different tune.

Alright let's look at Fereldan.  Obviously the people in Fereldan aren't nearly as anti-mage as other Andrastian nations.  We see that when we get out of Fereldan.  That doesn't mean mages are loved.  Secondly two mages played key roles in defeating the blight (and are heros) and sometimes the Hero of Fereldan him (or her)self is a mage.  That is a "Big Deal"™ even for the popular person. 

In addition, Alistair is a popular king who not only helped defeat the blight but has stood up to those "damned Orlesians".  If Anora is queen, a similiar dynamic occures through her father Gen Loghain.

While Alistair and Loghain agree on virtually nothing, they DO agree that mages aren't so bad (if perhaps for different reasons) AND the Chantry is not to be trusted (nor are the Templars).  In fact Loghain pushed hard to have the chantry thrown out of Fereldan when Maric won his war.

Fast forward to the end of DA2 and we know that Fereldan (no matter who is on the throne) is an open mage-haven harboring apostates in direct violation of the chantry and that Fereldan (at least for now) is getting away with it....and there seems to be no sign of trouble or even dissent (at least not open dissent) from the peasentry or the Banns.

When you combine all this together especially with a huge and hated neighbor (Orlais) threatenin them along with their Chantry lap-dogs, I think it's a virtual certainty that Fereldan goes "Church of England" during the mages war and sides with the Circles (also reflect that Orzammar has the known lyrium deposits and those trade routes go through Fereldan...and the relationship between Fereldan and Orzammar is cordial assuming a King Bhelen).

Bottom line:  When people (rightfully) feel threatened by Orlais in Fereldan, they will fall behind THEIR king and accept his "Royal Fereldan Apostates" as a necessary evil.  Nationality matters more in Fereldan than religion.

-Polaris

Modifié par IanPolaris, 13 avril 2011 - 07:53 .

[TEWR]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Why do everyone believe Ferelden will support the circle? Fereldans are just as much Andrastians as any other nation. They will see the mages rising up as the potential start of another Imperium, just like all the other Andrastians.

But Ferelden has a 2 out of 3 chance of being led by a man who has a different opinion on mages than everyone else. Alistair doesn't see them as what people say they are. And since he's the king, the armies would have to answer to him. Especially if the nobility supported The Wardens over Loghain. Plus he has both Arl Eamon and Bann Teagan to help persuade people, as well as Anora's political savvy should he have married her. The Blight in Ferelden was also ended with the help of at least 2 mages, so they might also like that.

Just because he is king, does not make the armies of Ferelden obligated to follow him. Ferelden politics work that way. The king of Ferelden needs the support of the Banns, Arls, and Teyrnirs, to get his army. Each of the nobles individually chooses wether or not to send their troops to the king. Normally the general consensus is to send troops, but if the nobles were to see the king as a dangerous heretic and mage sympathizer, then the flute would probably play a different tune.

yes I know, but you missed the key sentence I said. Arl Eamon, Bann Teagan, and possibly Anora depending on choices can help persuade the nobility to support Alistair. They were able to persuade the nobility to side against Loghain, a war hero who had many nobles on his side. Teyrn Cousland is Fergus Cousland, whom I can see supporting Alistair. He's a man of justice and equality. Plus Alistair helped kill Howe, so yea. It could be reason enough for Fergus to assist Alistair.

As for the Teyrn of Gwaren, who knows who that is now.

[IanPolaris]

Ethereal Writer,

You forgot a key point: In Fereldan, while people believe in the Maker, well enough, there is far less popular support for the Chantry and it's Templars than other parts of Thedas because the Chantry acted for so (too) long as an open arm of the hated Orlesian occupiers, and even today, people associate the Chantry with (hated) Orlais.

Nationalism matters in Fereldan and it matters a lot.

-Polaris

[AlexXIV]

I think the key in Ferelden is actually Alistair. He is a popular king and people love him. That gives him alot of influence. Also the Warden does probably have some influence on him, no matter the choices the Warden made. Anora is just a power player. If she is on the throne she will do whatever she thinks is best for fereleden which probably means she won't risk a war for some lofty ideal.

[TEWR]

IanPolaris wrote...

Ethereal Writer,

You forgot a key point: In Fereldan, while people believe in the Maker, well enough, there is far less popular support for the Chantry and it's Templars than other parts of Thedas because the Chantry acted for so (too) long as an open arm of the hated Orlesian occupiers, and even today, people associate the Chantry with (hated) Orlais.

Nationalism matters in Fereldan and it matters a lot.

-Polaris

That's a good point. If that was mentioned in the books though, I never knew because I don't have the books sadly. I should rectify that.

[IanPolaris]

AlexXIV wrote...

I think the key in Ferelden is actually Alistair. He is a popular king and people love him. That gives him alot of influence. Also the Warden does probably have some influence on him, no matter the choices the Warden made. Anora is just a power player. If she is on the throne she will do whatever she thinks is best for fereleden which probably means she won't risk a war for some lofty ideal.

Anora wouldn't give a lofty idea the time of day, but we know that Anora has made Fereldan a mage-haven as well.  Her reasons are no doubt very different, but I suspect the go something like this: (I have to guess with Anora because unlike Alistair she does not make a cameo and tell us)

Orlais is threatening Fereldan with war.  Futhermore, her own father doesn't like the Chantry (or trust them one bit) which means she isn't likely to either.

Orlais is a far more powerful nation and Fereldan is very weak right now post-blight.  The soldiers she does have are battle-harded and probably person for person the best (or at least most experienced) in all of Thedas outside of Orzammar, Tevinter, or Par Vallon.....but numbers matter....a lot. 

That means that Queen Anora desperately needs a something to make up the difference in power to at least make Orlais think twice, and openly harboring apostates (esp if she drafts them into a magical corp of the Royal Army) is just the thing for that.  As for irritating the chantry, Anora probalby figures (correctly) that the Chantry would openly back an Orlesian invasion anyway so she has nothing to lose.

-Polaris