204 réponses à ce sujet

[Caralampio]

Sure you can stretch your mind to find an explanation, something in the "opposites attract each other" dept. But frankly. In any dictionary you can find, a rival is an enemy. An enemy hates you. But in DA2 rivals don't hate you. They don't leave you, they don't backstab you.  

In DA2, a rival is just a variety of friend. There are friend-friends, and there are rival-friends. A rival friend is someone whom you have offended repeatedly, belittled, done things he/she hates, and in general being in their eyes obnoxious. Yet, they still love you. They are even your very close "friends", just in a weird codependent way.
Hmm.

[Romantiq]

I'd rather be a mean son of a **** evil jerk than rival to someone.

Don't like this new system. Fits linear games though.

Modifié par Romantiq, 13 avril 2011 - 12:05 .

[astrallite]

I do find it odd...

After all, very few of the characters have any reason to be attached to you, they are far from being your "comrades" as you rarely associate with them over the years and are not pressed together by a common goal like the Warden's Allies in DAO.

Why would they be your a rival? There's nothing attaching them to you and they should be more likely just leave you or attack you. The rivalry system never made any sense to start with.

[Zcorck]

Haven't tried out the rival system in DA2, but from that description it kinda sounds like a rival-friend is Hawke's biatch. Hope I'm not misunderstanding you, sorta.

Personally I don't like the idea of measuring your relationship with people with numbers.
I prefer the older system where your companions change in regards to yourself or things in general through talking with them or just doing stuff.

[GeorgeZip]

I thought of it more like in a sports team or business setting. There could be someone who you disliked personally or disliked their approach but were able to respect their abilities and find them useful. Anders for example.

It would be cool if at a certain threshold of rivialry they would leave or attack. I can see Fenris losing it after you let another mage off the hook. "Ok thats it Hawke" and he starts glowing.

[The Minority]

Rival means someone you compete with. It does not mean mortal enemy. Makes sense imo.

[cpmd4]

It's way better than Origins, where I was so two-faced trying to please each individual character.

Now I can play the way I want and not fear losing important party members and losing out.

[Mecher3k]

cpmd4 wrote...

It's way better than Origins, where I was so two-faced trying to please each individual character.

Now I can play the way I want and not fear losing important party members and losing out.

It's impossible to lose party members unless you are too stupid to use a thing called gifts. Oh wait....

And no DA2's system is just plain dumb.

No one is going to want to be around someone they consider a rival, especially if I'm so anti what they belief. It's just off to have fenris hate me so much yet be willing to follow me to death. And yes fenris must hate me with all my mage helping in DA2 especially since I was a mage myself.

Modifié par Mecher3k, 13 avril 2011 - 01:44 .

[Loc'n'lol]

Caralampio wrote...
 A rival friend is someone whom you have offended repeatedly, belittled

Actually no, those two are how you end-up in the not-nice middle of the bar zone, where they just don't care about you and will leave you at the end if you do something they don't like.
To progress along the rivalry path, you have to take a stance they disagree with, consistently. Being an ass for the sake of being an ass won't bring you anywhere.

[Cobrawar]

it makes no sense.

[Eber]

They have taken the concept of rivalry not being a punishment too far. Rivals should not stand by you no matter what. In the case of Isabela rivals should not be able to romance her. Her rivalry is her telling you you're a bore while the romance dialogue is her telling you you're exciting (it's unchanged, same as friendly romance). The scenes do not blend well (video).

[Rheia]

Disregarding literal definition of rivalry, I can't say enough -good- things about DA2 friend/rival system.

In Origins I always felt shallow in regards to approval system. Morrigan hated every step I made, but then went 'ooh, shiny mirror! Sniny ring! I you now!' in camp. Or how at times you had to behave contrary to your character's believes just to metagame companion approval for the desired. outcomes.

Rivalry gave me opportunity to disagree with the character, but still be cordial with them. For instance I didn't appreciate Aveline's smothering and attitude, and I was able to tell her that. I liked that you couldn't just take a particular companion worldview and turn it 180. The companions were who they were for a slew of reasons that defined their character and responses and I liked that you couldn't just wrap them around your finger with a truckful of gifts.

Also, rival companions do not always stick around. They do IF you have worked out your differences when your views finally clash at their limits. You have a chance to tell rival Fenris to leave after he resolves his issues and questions if he has any reason to stay by your side. You can also tell rival Aveline that you do not care if she returns to Ferelden or not, for example.

I do not recall I had to "belittle" or "repetedly offend" any of the companions I rivaled. There were disagreements based on world view or modus operandi, but I never got an impression my character hated any particular companion guts or vice versa. It was more of a 'I think your believes and/or actions are misguided, but your convictions are in the right place' kind of thing.

Modifié par Rheia, 13 avril 2011 - 03:24 .

[brightblueink]

I like the rivalry system. It acknowledges that sometimes you can disagree with someone, but still respect them, which I think is what the system is trying to show. It makes the most sense with Carver--he disagrees with Hawke a lot and is frustrated that Hawke's the favored child in comparison to him, but he still cares about Hawke and will often side with him when push comes to shove.

A rival is definitely not an enemy--they're a "competitor".

The only part I think that it's confusing is the end where they'll side with you--my guess is that the rational is supposed to be that they feel like Hawke's the only person strong enough in the city to be able to make sense out of the chaos of the situation they're end, so their choice is one of survival and respect, even if they might question their judgment.

Either way? I prefer the friend/rival system way, way more than the old "approval" system. It's much better for roleplaying.

[Fieryeel]

I see nothing wrong with the rivalry system, I like it far better than Origins.
In Origins
Alistair: Look at yourself! Are you even a Grey Warden?! How could you do all those things!
*Gives Alistair 10 gifts at once*
Alistair: You know, I 've been meaning to say how glad I am that you are a Grey Warden, and what an honor it has been to fight at your side.

I would have liked to have more gifts for my companions in DA2, but DAO's gift system was rather silly imo.

Merrill's rivalry romance system is amazing, and it makes sense too. She hates and even throws you outta her house at high rivalry, but deep inside, she does understand you were in fact trying to help her with good intentions. And that fact does touch her so much she is willing to enter a romance with you, even if you two do not agree on things.

[Ryzaki]

Anders flat out tells you he hates you and wants to strangle you.

Just sayin.

[Johnsen1972]

Romantiq wrote...

I'd rather be a mean son of a **** evil jerk than rival to someone.

Don't like this new system. Fits linear games though.

Thats the reason why they introduced it mainly, to make the game more linear.

[Niniva]

I agree in a way.

When you look at it, implicitly alot of people are going to take the thought of "Rivalry" in a negative fashion. Something to be avoided unless 'negative' is exactly what they're shooting for. Despite how the devs have been vocal on how it isn't a punishment, its just naturally taken that way. Especially considering its associated color is red. Which we also will naturally associate with something 'bad'.

Call it something else and change the color, and do absolutely nothing else, and that might just help.

Modifié par Niniva, 13 avril 2011 - 03:44 .

[erynnar]

Mecher3k wrote...

cpmd4 wrote...

It's way better than Origins, where I was so two-faced trying to please each individual character.

Now I can play the way I want and not fear losing important party members and losing out.

It's impossible to lose party members unless you are too stupid to use a thing called gifts. Oh wait....

And no DA2's system is just plain dumb.

No one is going to want to be around someone they consider a rival, especially if I'm so anti what they belief. It's just off to have fenris hate me so much yet be willing to follow me to death. And yes fenris must hate me with all my mage helping in DA2 especially since I was a mage myself.

So in otherwords, it is a safety net and a McGuffin. You don't have to
worry about your personality and how it affects the world around you
because these people you hardly have any interaction with and have no
reason to stay do anyways...for no reason, even if they hate you? 

I hate
the friend rival actually. We all have to be two faced in real life,
that's how it works to get along with each other in the world. And
actually it isn't two faced as many masks. We wear them in different
situations, and around different people. That is realism.  In
DAO they would leave, or try and kill you.  Your actions had real (or
the illusion of reality, well until you could buy them off with gifts, or make them leave because of gifts...) consequences for your companions. The friend rival crap fits with the interactive movie.  The companions would only leave when the story let them leave you, at the appointed time and place.  Like talking to them at the appointed time and place to get to know them. In that sense it fit DA2 very handily.  A railroad track with only one way to go and not even the illusion you might change it. In DAO it was more dramatic, you could actually wind up on the tower with no one but Loghain, Morrigan, and Dog, and not even Morrigan if you turned her down.

[erynnar]

Rheia wrote...

Disregarding literal definition of rivalry, I can't say enough -good- things about DA2 friend/rival system.

In Origins I always felt shallow in regards to approval system. Morrigan hated every step I made, but then went 'ooh, shiny mirror! Sniny ring! I you now!' in camp. Or how at times you had to behave contrary to your character's believes just to metagame companion approval for the desired. outcomes.

Rivalry gave me opportunity to disagree with the character, but still be cordial with them. For instance I didn't appreciate Aveline's smothering and attitude, and I was able to tell her that. I liked that you couldn't just take a particular companion worldview and turn it 180. The companions were who they were for a slew of reasons that defined their character and responses and I liked that you couldn't just wrap them around your finger with a truckful of gifts.

Also, rival companions do not always stick around. They do IF you have worked out your differences when your views finally clash at their limits. You have a chance to tell rival Fenris to leave after he resolves his issues and questions if he has any reason to stay by your side. You can also tell rival Aveline that you do not care if she returns to Ferelden or not, for example.

I do not recall I had to "belittle" or "repetedly offend" any of the companions I rivaled. There were disagreements based on world view or modus operandi, but I never got an impression my character hated any particular companion guts or vice versa. It was more of a 'I think your believes and/or actions are misguided, but your convictions are in the right place' kind of thing.

Okay with the way you describe it, I might change my mind. I didn't love the way it was in DAO. But  with more interaction I actually could get my companions (even the difficult Morri) to friendly with conversations and no gifts. In fact half the time my gifts sat in my chest at camp. I thought buying them off with Saturnalia gifts was silly, but in good fun since by then, most of us had already played through without the exessive access to bribes. 

Hmm, I love when someone gives me food for thought. I am going to have to re think  my thoughts on the new system. I wonder if a comprimise between the two would work?  Less red for bad for one and blue for good. And more interaction like in DAO?

Modifié par erynnar, 13 avril 2011 - 04:25 .

[DreGregoire]

I enjoy the rivalry vs friendship system; to me it seems much more realistic than buying off somebodies affection with gifts (that never works in reallife).

The system works properly too. Just because somebody does something you don't like or disagrees with you doesn't mean you go your seperate ways.

Example:
My husband and I agree on some things and almost violently (verbally) disagree on other things. Does this change that we love and care for each other? I do things he doesn't like, he does things I don't like. Does this mean we go our seperate ways? No we are still married and happily so. We agree to disagree. Our relationship didn't start out this way. As in DA2 we started out as a happy medium that leaned heavily to the friendship side, until we saw the other was willing to accept us for ourselves and then we felt confident voicing our differing opinions (a fierce rivalry in some cases). We agree we are in love, happily married, and are willing to agree to disagree.

Another example:
Let's take it in the instance of sibling rivalry. You can't stand the way your sibling does things and he/she can't stand the way you do things. You are still siblings that defend each other to the end despite this.

Aside: Anders doesn't really hate you but he hates your views. Agreeing to disagree would be nice but in one of my playthroughs he... (sorry deleted for spoilage ) It was heartwarming and incredibly... well anyways.

The system makes a world of sense to me.

Modifié par DreGregoire, 13 avril 2011 - 04:39 .

[thesilverlinedviking]

cpmd4 wrote...

It's way better than Origins, where I was so two-faced trying to please each individual character.

Now I can play the way I want and not fear losing important party members and losing out.

^ This ^
Origins approval system felt shallow to me.

[DreGregoire]

erynnar wrote...

I hate the friend rival actually. We all have to be two faced in real life, that's how it works to get along with each other in the world. And actually it isn't two faced as many masks. We wear them in different
situations, and around different people. That is realism. 

You can actually act like this in DA2 as well. The problem lies in having the correct selection of people with you so that you can mask yourself in the correct manner at all times. Taking two companions with opposing views with you and choosing to say something only one of them will agee with will of course reveal that self you have hidden unless it was the mask you used in the first place. LOL.

[9999dmg]

Do you people not have social lives? I would consider the majority of the people in my circle to be rivals in some respect. Is that healthy? Not really. Is that just something that happens with particular kinds of personalities? Definitely.

[erynnar]

DreGregoire wrote...

erynnar wrote...

I hate the friend rival actually. We all have to be two faced in real life, that's how it works to get along with each other in the world. And actually it isn't two faced as many masks. We wear them in different
situations, and around different people. That is realism. 

You can actually act like this in DA2 as well. The problem lies in having the correct selection of people with you so that you can mask yourself in the correct manner at all times. Taking two companions with opposing views with you and choosing to say something only one of them will agee with will of course reveal that self you have hidden unless it was the mask you used in the first place. LOL.

Well, you are talking me into the rivalry friend thing. I think, now that I have pondered it more, that it isn't the rivalry friend thing, so much but the not feeling like I really got to know them as I did in DAO.  I need more convos with them outside of their homes, or in a less structured manner.

[DreGregoire]

erynnar wrote...

DreGregoire wrote...

erynnar wrote...

I hate the friend rival actually. We all have to be two faced in real life, that's how it works to get along with each other in the world. And actually it isn't two faced as many masks. We wear them in different
situations, and around different people. That is realism. 

You can actually act like this in DA2 as well. The problem lies in having the correct selection of people with you so that you can mask yourself in the correct manner at all times. Taking two companions with opposing views with you and choosing to say something only one of them will agee with will of course reveal that self you have hidden unless it was the mask you used in the first place. LOL.

Well, you are talking me into the rivalry friend thing. I think, now that I have pondered it more, that it isn't the rivalry friend thing, so much but the not feeling like I really got to know them as I did in DAO.  I need more convos with them outside of their homes, or in a less structured manner.

I would have greatly enjoyed more conversations and interactions with them. There are a few nice surprises if you take the right people into differently places with you. (no spoiler section again... so sorry).