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Does DA2 Rivalry make sense?


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#151
Ryzaki

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Miashi wrote...

By loyalty quests I mean companion quests. Bolded.
But in origins I could speak to my companions at camp, even though I didn't have them in my optimal group setup.


You had an conversation available once you recruited any of them. That convo would usally give you a certain number of friendship/rivalry points depending on what you said. They did not need to be in your party. 

I never used Varric but his friendship ended up maxed simply by talking to him and helping him with quests. (well obviously he was in my party during the quests but not otherwise). The same with Merrill. Izzy and Fenris were the only exceptions (and that's only because you need Fenris in your party to get one of his quests trigger in the first place and getting points with Izzy without flirting is like pulling teeth). (And that was similar to Leliana and Wynne who you needed to have in your party to get certain quests to trigger). 

And in Origins they wouldn't tell you much unless you had their approval up to a certain level. 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 13 avril 2011 - 06:32 .


#152
Dark83

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Sten's approval was better than Morrigan's, who's just a stupid **** pretending to be smart and manipulative. They both lose approval for helping Redcliff, but you can explain to Sten what the party gains from it, and he approves of the pragmatism. He also has an awesome approval for forcing the bartender to fight, hah.

#153
Persephone

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17thknight wrote...

Miashi wrote...

Persephone wrote...
Ah. Well, she's being sent to the Templars. He knows what they do to blood mages. So I guess he's fine with it and really....a swift murder knife may be too gentle in his opinion.:P


Ok... but where's my friendship point then? See what I mean? Do it or don't. Friendship and rivalry is used arbritarily.


Your'e talking to a typical fanboi who is gigglesqueeing over the pile of **** that is DA2. Expect neither logic nor reason.


Short term memory loss? It's fanGIRL. And kindly stop putting words in my mouth. And how about toning down the petty insults? Is it THAT hard to accept that your opinion is not a universal truth? That people have EVERY right to disagree? See, it's exactly that kind of behavior that annoys me. I have no problem with people having issues with a game I like. Several people have explained them here very well and...wait for it...in a civil, constructive manner. Sadly you're not one of them. Were I to follow your system of throwing around generalizations I'd just call you a hater having bouts of nerd rage. :innocent:

How about discussing this topic like an adult? (Like most people here in this thread....)

#154
Aaleel

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Dark83 wrote...

Sten's approval was better than Morrigan's, who's just a stupid **** pretending to be smart and manipulative. They both lose approval for helping Redcliff, but you can explain to Sten what the party gains from it, and he approves of the pragmatism. He also has an awesome approval for forcing the bartender to fight, hah.


I liked Sten's whole approval thing.  It was all about being pragmatic and honorable.  He didn't think you gave the woman what the sword was worth so he disapproved.  When you came back to camp once he asked what was your plan, and how do mean to accomplish it. 

You got approval for standing up to him and showing him who the leader was and therefore gained his respect and loyalty.  If you didn't accomplish this to his satisfaction he challenged you because he didn't see you as a good enough leader to accomplish the task.

No one does anything like that is this game.  They pretty much follow you no matter what you're doing, or how bad they think your decisions might be.

Modifié par Aaleel, 13 avril 2011 - 06:42 .


#155
Ryzaki

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Yes that's why Anders tells you to screw off if you try to get him to side with the templars, (or attacks you with demons in tow), that's why Fenris can tell you to screw off if you try to get him to side with the mages, and Merrill does something similar with siding with the templars. That's why if you say the wrong thing Aveline can tell you to screw off and that she's only there because she has nothing else to do and to leave her alone.  Because they always respect you and do whatever you say. 

That's also why Fenris won't go after Hardriana on his own if you continously ignore him. 

And yes it was quite possible to get Sten to back down at Haven if your approval was high enough.  Just like in DA2 doing the same thing gets people to side with you at the end. 

Why are people acting like this is some new concept? 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 13 avril 2011 - 06:46 .


#156
Persephone

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Aaleel wrote...

Dark83 wrote...

Sten's approval was better than Morrigan's, who's just a stupid **** pretending to be smart and manipulative. They both lose approval for helping Redcliff, but you can explain to Sten what the party gains from it, and he approves of the pragmatism. He also has an awesome approval for forcing the bartender to fight, hah.


I liked Sten's whole approval thing.  It was all about being pragmatic and honorable.  He didn't think you gave the woman what the sword was worth so he disapproved.  When you came back to camp once he asked what was your plan, and how do mean to accomplish it. 

You got approval for standing up to him and showing him who the leader was and therefore gained his respect and loyalty.  If you didn't accomplish this to his satisfaction he challenged you because he didn't see you as a good enough leader to accomplish the task.

No one does anything like that is this game.  They pretty much follow you no matter what you're doing, or how bad they think your decisions might be.


Really? Because my companion roster was pretty empty by the end of Act III in my third playthrough. (Not many were happy with my Lady Hawke that time around)

#157
Miashi

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Persephone wrote...
Really? Because my companion roster was pretty empty by the end of Act III in my third playthrough. (Not many were happy with my Lady Hawke that time around)


What Dragon Age are you talking about? You replied to a DA:O quote yet you speak of Hawke.
If you're talking about DA:2 the only very efficient way to get rid of half your companions is to remain neutral.

edit: UNLESS you depart with certain companions And that has NOTHING to do with friendship / rivalry

Modifié par Miashi, 13 avril 2011 - 08:00 .


#158
Zkyire

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Ryzaki wrote...

Anders flat out tells you he hates you and wants to strangle you.

Just sayin.


Anders hates a lot of people. His opinion means nothing. :P

#159
Ryzaki

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IEatWhatIPoo wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

Anders flat out tells you he hates you and wants to strangle you.

Just sayin.


Anders hates a lot of people. His opinion means nothing. :P


It's not hate anyways. He clearly wants to mac on Hawke. 

Hatesex time. :wizard:

#160
Persephone

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Miashi wrote...

Persephone wrote...
Really? Because my companion roster was pretty empty by the end of Act III in my third playthrough. (Not many were happy with my Lady Hawke that time around)


What Dragon Age are you talking about? You replied to a DA:O quote yet you speak of Hawke.
If you're talking about DA:2 the only very efficient way to get rid of half your companions is to remain neutral.

edit: UNLESS you killed Anders, turned in Isabela, turned in Fenris. And that has NOTHING to do with friendship / rivalry


Or defy them? (Sebastian) Or kill them? (Anders) Etc.

#161
Aaleel

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No one leaves like Zevren does if you don't have enough approval.

No one turns on you if you do something that goes against everything the believe in like Wynne and Leliana do.  They're no gifts or approval involved, they're out.

Also no one will romance you if you've constantly pissed them off like in this game.

People wait until the end of the game to make up their mind.  Even if you tell Meredith at the start of Act3 yeah I agree with you mages are a threat and need to be locked up.  At this point what reason would a mage have to keep helping you knowing the ultimate goal? 

#162
Miashi

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Persephone wrote...

Miashi wrote...

Persephone wrote...
Really? Because my companion roster was pretty empty by the end of Act III in my third playthrough. (Not many were happy with my Lady Hawke that time around)


What Dragon Age are you talking about? You replied to a DA:O quote yet you speak of Hawke.
If you're talking about DA:2 the only very efficient way to get rid of half your companions is to remain neutral.

edit: UNLESS you killed Anders, turned in Isabela, turned in Fenris. And that has NOTHING to do with friendship / rivalry


Or defy them? Or kill them? Etc.


Still nothing to do with friendship and rivalry levels - you can do it even if you're the best pals.

Modifié par Miashi, 13 avril 2011 - 09:32 .


#163
Maria Caliban

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Tirigon wrote...

Maria Caliban wrote...

Rivalry is the best thing to happen to companion interactions since approval.

That´s like saying "diapers is the best thing to happen to crap since crapping in your trousers":police::devil::bandit:

Approval is an excellent mechanism for a party-based RPG.

#164
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Rivalry is tougher, it's easy to only disagree with them half of the time and end up hugging the middle. It's hard to be perfectly diametrically opposed to anyone.

#165
Zkyire

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Ryzaki wrote...

IEatWhatIPoo wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

Anders flat out tells you he hates you and wants to strangle you.

Just sayin.


Anders hates a lot of people. His opinion means nothing. :P


It's not hate anyways. He clearly wants to mac on Hawke. 

Hatesex time. :wizard:


"Hawke, you are the worst person I have ever met... But dat ass!"

#166
Curlain

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Tirigon wrote...

Miashi wrote...

cpmd4 wrote...

It's way better than Origins, where I was so two-faced trying to please each individual character.

Now I can play the way I want and not fear losing important party members and losing out.


And why not? What's so bad about playing an hypocrit character? I'm pretty sure a lot of people irl are hypocrit to avoid confrontation or lose allies.


Actually you didn´t need to appease everyone in DAO.

In fact, I think doing so is counter-productive. Personally i had great trouble leaving many "friends" at camp all the time.
In my last playthrough - which also was the most enjoyable - it was easy for me:

Alistair is with me all the time, and also was my Lover (that means, 100 approval, obviously). I agreed with him on just about everything and all.....

Leliana was with me all the time, too. There was a bit light-hearted flirting, although it didnt even lead to a kiss, let alone a romance, since my char was loyal to Alistair. Ended with 95 or 100 or so approval as best friends.

Sten was a warrior my Char had much respect for, and eventually gained his respect. Party member most of the time. 100 approval (even though I totally disagreed with him on mages and women, my char being both). In the end, the Warden even accompanied him to par Vollen.

Morrigan was sometimes a substitute for Sten in the party, my char (becoming shapeshifter herself) agreed with her rather often, but not always. Never got beyond 60 or so approval.

Zevran killed in the ambush, Wynne told to stay at the Circle to help Irving, Oghren recruited immediately before Landsmeet, and never fought with him except in the Deep roads. No Friendship.

Noone was spammed with gifts. Except for the special ones with dialogue, I only gave 1 to each, and only if it made sense for my character.....



I have to agree with this, I don't get this 'Origins approval system' forced me to play as a hypocritical character.  No it didn't, if you played that way, you choose that was how you character acted, in and of itself the approval system worked fine on the whole.  If you did something that went against their morals, beliefs and agendas you went somewhat down in their estimation (and if you continued you could go really down), and the same worked in the opposite direction.  Sure the game made it possible for you to spam with gifts if you felt a driving need to get approval maxed out, but that was purely up to the player's choice to abuse part if they wished.  It was certainly not a perfect system, but if you just RP your character and don't gift spam characters and stick to the special ones it led to interesting relationships with you characters.

The first Warden I created had a variety of different approvals with different characters, I hardly used gifts at all (almost only the special ones, and not even all those in Morrigan's case).  I took hits for some decisions with Morrigan for instance, but I still ended up with 100 approval with her, and that was without even having to be hypocritical, or go around kicking cats (the Warden was a practical but ultimately noble guy), Leliana also had 100 approval, Wynne was pretty high, while with Zev he ended up betraying the Warden, Alistair liked him but was only around 60, and Orghen, Sten and Shale were pretty neutral.

I guess I just never saw the need to have to get 100 approval, it was just a meter attempting to reflect a character's feelings and stance towards your PC.  So I never really understand people saying the system forced them to act against their character, I don't think it did, it was that player choosing to have their character act that way.

That said, I don't mind the new system to much, if worked right the rival system can work well (such attempting to prevent Merrill using the mirror to protect her, which she can end up seeing) but on the other hand it often lacks the negative consequences the Origins system gave when you do things consistently that really stand directly against what a companion believes in.

#167
Miashi

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Filament wrote...

Rivalry is tougher, it's easy to only disagree with them half of the time and end up hugging the middle. It's hard to be perfectly diametrically opposed to anyone.


Not at all. Bring Merrill, Anders and Fenris/Aveline together, any side against the mages everytime. Chances you might get an approval from Anders once or twice, but you'll have 2 rivals and a friend by act 2. However, obtaining friendship on the neutral characters like Varric or Isabela prove sometimes to be difficult and confusing because they rarely explain why they agree or disagree, which is something I mentionned earlier

Modifié par Miashi, 13 avril 2011 - 07:31 .


#168
Tirigon

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Maria Caliban wrote...

Tirigon wrote...

Maria Caliban wrote...

Rivalry is the best thing to happen to companion interactions since approval.

That´s like saying "diapers is the best thing to happen to crap since crapping in your trousers":police::devil::bandit:

Approval is an excellent mechanism for a party-based RPG.



So is diapers for people who can´t hold their poop:P

#169
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Well Anders I was able to max rivalry, but Isabela I have found much tougher. Like, **spoiler** I give the sociopath what he wants (death), friendship. Flirt, significant friendship. But those things aren't really inconsistent with my stance regarding her poison selling friend. Yet with friendship/rivalry being the way it is it makes it as if I'm being inconsistent.

Modifié par Filament, 13 avril 2011 - 07:38 .


#170
Miashi

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Curlain: you're absolutely right. You don't have to be hypocrit to keep your companions in Da:o. The context that my response was adressing was regarding the fact that you can still establish a relationship with a comapinion despite them disagreeing with you.

I explain further on that I believe DA:2 relies a lot on your relationships, however it does poor in trying to justify companion reactions to your actions. This sometimes occured in DA:O but was a minor inconvenience because companions sticked with you even neutral (cept zevran)

#171
Avissel

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The Rivalry system is one of the games best features, I loved how it actually changed the dialogue in the companion specific conversations.

No more having to always agree with my companions or give them lots of crap if I want them to talk to me.

#172
Kimberly Shaw

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I understand the concept of the friendly rivalry system, to me it works kind of best with Carver. You're both after the same objective, together, but trying to out-do eachother to get it. You like eachother, but you're competing and take pot shots at eachother.

Did anyone ever watch Facts of Life? Blair and Jo would be "Friend Rivals". So it makes sense.

HOWEVER, in DA2, there was no reason some characters would stick with you, and should have left if you continually do things they hate. These are not boarding school girls who are forced to live together, there is no reason for Fenris to stick around if you are a pro-mage blood mage who continually sides with mages. No Rivalry Friend would keep him at your side for 6 years.

#173
Paraxial

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I preferred the friend or no-friend system, seemed more 'real'. If I treat someone like **** I don't expect them to be my rival, I expect them to hate me. That being said the rivalry system was interesting, I was glad to see they at least tried something new with the approval system.

#174
xkg

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17thknight wrote...

Miashi wrote...

Persephone wrote...
Ah. Well, she's being sent to the Templars. He knows what they do to blood mages. So I guess he's fine with it and really....a swift murder knife may be too gentle in his opinion.:P


Ok... but where's my friendship point then? See what I mean? Do it or don't. Friendship and rivalry is used arbritarily.


Your'e talking to a typical fanboi who is gigglesqueeing over the pile of **** that is DA2. Expect neither logic nor reason.


+10
so true so true that i couldnt resist to prise you for this
i just live by my rules (one you can read in my tagline) so i just ignore those few "iam the wisest" here on forums

Modifié par xkg, 13 avril 2011 - 07:57 .


#175
Miashi

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Miashi wrote...

Persephone wrote...

Miashi wrote...

Persephone wrote...
Really? Because my companion roster was pretty empty by the end of Act III in my third playthrough. (Not many were happy with my Lady Hawke that time around)


What Dragon Age are you talking about? You replied to a DA:O quote yet you speak of Hawke.
If you're talking about DA:2 the only very efficient way to get rid of half your companions is to remain neutral.

edit: UNLESS you departed with some companions. And that has NOTHING to do with friendship / rivalry


Or defy them? Or kill them?  Etc.


Still nothing to do with friendship and rivalry levels - you can do it even if you're the best pals.


Modifié par Miashi, 13 avril 2011 - 09:32 .