164 réponses à ce sujet

[Merced652]

So can i roleplay thedas??

[Roxlimn]

jds1bio wrote...

Raphael diSanto wrote...

The point that people are missing is that DA2 is NOT Hawke's story. Sorry, folks, but you are NOT the main character in this story. It's not DAO. It's not about Hawke saving the city, or finding the "good" ending.

But it was marketed to us as Hawke's Rise To Power, not Chronicles of Kirkwall.  So if you're right about DA2 not being Hawke's story, then you can understand why some feel like they've been had.

It's a little more like "How Hawke Changed the World."  His influence does not end in Act 2, and it's pretty decisively concluded by Act 3, since he more or less vanishes from the scene afterwards.  Granted, the events following his rise to power weren't exactly masterminded by him, but how he acted and how things turned out was still pretty pivotal on his being there as an actor.

I get that many gamers wanted the traditional power fantasy.  I get that.  That said, I don't think it'll hurt them any to have their horizons stretched out a little every so often.

[PlumPaul93]

Roxlimn wrote...

jds1bio wrote...

Raphael diSanto wrote...

The point that people are missing is that DA2 is NOT Hawke's story. Sorry, folks, but you are NOT the main character in this story. It's not DAO. It's not about Hawke saving the city, or finding the "good" ending.

But it was marketed to us as Hawke's Rise To Power, not Chronicles of Kirkwall.  So if you're right about DA2 not being Hawke's story, then you can understand why some feel like they've been had.

It's a little more like "How Hawke Changed the World."  His influence does not end in Act 2, and it's pretty decisively concluded by Act 3, since he more or less vanishes from the scene afterwards.  Granted, the events following his rise to power weren't exactly masterminded by him, but how he acted and how things turned out was still pretty pivotal on his being there as an actor.

I get that many gamers wanted the traditional power fantasy.  I get that.  That said, I don't think it'll hurt them any to have their horizons stretched out a little every so often.

How did hawke change the world? If i remember correctly wasn't it the andy man anders who did?

[Morroian]

Roxlimn wrote...

I get that many gamers wanted the traditional power fantasy.  I get that.  That said, I don't think it'll hurt them any to have their horizons stretched out a little every so often.

I agree but I don't think many of them like it based on the reaction .

[neppakyo]

juweee wrote...

Raphael diSanto wrote...

The point that people are missing is that DA2 is NOT Hawke's story. Sorry, folks, but you are NOT the main character in this story. It's not DAO. It's not about Hawke saving the city, or finding the "good" ending.

DA2 is the story of the City of Kirkwall, the story of the events leading up to the .. well, no spoilers, but the stuff that the Seeker is asking Varric about. It's about Hawke's role in those events, sure. But it's not Hawke's story. It's not an epic "save-the-country/world/universe" story.

It's the story of "what happened in Kirkwall over 10 years to cause the situation we now find ourselves in."

Bravo.

Definitely agree, it's not about Hawke at all. It's the story of Anders' fall from grace, and the aftermath thereof. Hawke just happened to be there for it.

Kinda.

Hawke was made so the player had something to do while bioware told their story. They don't like those pesky 'players' interferring with their work.

[Big I]

Raphael diSanto wrote...

The point that people are missing is that DA2 is NOT Hawke's story. Sorry, folks, but you are NOT the main character in this story. It's not DAO. It's not about Hawke saving the city, or finding the "good" ending.

DA2 is the story of the City of Kirkwall, the story of the events leading up to the .. well, no spoilers, but the stuff that the Seeker is asking Varric about. It's about Hawke's role in those events, sure. But it's not Hawke's story. It's not an epic "save-the-country/world/universe" story.

It's the story of "what happened in Kirkwall over 10 years to cause the situation we now find ourselves in."

I disagree. Up until Act 3 the whole game is about the "rise to power". Acts 1 and 2 establsh problems Hawke faces (poverty and the Qunari), and then has Hawke solve them. Act's 1 and 2 play out very similar to other Bioware games, with Hawke controlling the outcome of most of the plots. You can choose to help the Starkhaven apostates, or side with Mother Petrice, or keep Keran in the templars, or whatever. It's about a refugee who becomes the most important/heroic person in Kirkwall.


Act 3 felt like it was from another game, or was a particularly bad bit of DLC. It retcons every choice you've made as irrelevant and makes you a bystander to the main conflict. It's not that it presents you with a predetermined outcome, because all games do that. It's that it doesn't allow you to control HOW you reached that outcome, and how it played out in the endgame.

[Morroian]

Raphael diSanto wrote...

I, personally, absolutely love this story. It's the closest I've ever felt to real roleplaying in a cRPG. Walking the fine line between the factions, helping where I felt it right to help, not where I didn't. It felt much more meaningful than "Here's Darkspawn, go kill them. Oh, look, an archdemon. Go kill that, too."

I actually agree but to many people it seems role playing is making 'big' decisions and being given the illusion of directing the story. 

[TJSolo]

Cutlass Jack wrote...

TJSolo wrote...

Where was that point made?  The OP gave reasons why he did thinks the end in DA2 was horrible, your reply....Awakenings made all of your choice in Origins irrelevant. There was no point other than avoiding the issue the OP has.

Try just scrolling up the thread and rereading. Its not hard, really. You responded to the posts where the point was made. The OP felt that all his choices in DA2 seemed irrelevant. Another poster replied (fairly I think) that Origins choices were equally irrelevant.

However my response was to the person who said DA2 was what ruined the Origin choices. I wasn't responding to the OP. I just pointed out that many of those choices were already ruined by Awakening, so a little unfair to place the blame on DA2. To which you jumped to the poor conclusion that I was really saying somehow that DA2 was better.

Regardless, no one was avoiding the issue the OP has. Just pointing out that its not a new issue.

I didn't address his issues on the Dialogue system mainly because I completely disagree with his assessment. But I can appreciate that its his opinion and he's not the first person who seems to be confounded by it.

The point you claim was made by someone else is not found in that person's post. It just just another person that thinks criticisms of DA2 need to be accompanied with criticisms of DAO. That might provide some perspective if not for the sheer amount of oversimplification in favor of DA2. The archdemon is slain, the war ends...what the hell? That is not even an abridged version of the events that needed to take place in order to slay the AD. Some of those events decide if player's Warden will live or die. I don't care how baised this makes me sound but anyone saying whether their Warden lives or dies is irrelevant is a damn liar and fully deserves to be ignored in all DA discussions.

Pointing out what you would call flaws in the carry over of choices between games does not do anything for DA2. All it does is make Bioware seem like a company that bites off more than they can chew by providing choices in a game but not able to provide consistency or relevance of those choices over the life of a franchise.  

You and Vicious are completely avoiding the issue and derailing the thread so that the discussion is about shortcomings in any game other than DA2.

There is nothing confounding about the dialogue system. The paraphrases on the wheel result in Hawke saying something else which may or may not match the intent the player read into the paraphrasing.

[Janbrook4]

Does anyone else feel like DA2 is just a large DLC? When you look at the end of Origins andall the loose ends in Awakenings, Witch Hunt and DA2, you end up wanting/needing more. Everything so far has pointed to DA3, which, is okay, but NOT why I waited so patiently and paid so much money for DA2. If you never played earlier games and DA2 was your first game, you're STILL left wanting to find out wtf is going on. There's so much left unanswered! Yes, playing DA2 was fun, but I bought/played it for the story and the interaction between the party members, (not to mention DAO had better party interaction) so I was sadly disappointed. The only thing I can say at this point is: Bioware/EA must be planning on a lot more DLC and another sequel. At least one can fervently hope.

[neppakyo]

Janbrook4 wrote...

Does anyone else feel like DA2 is just a large DLC? When you look at the end of Origins andall the loose ends in Awakenings, Witch Hunt and DA2, you end up wanting/needing more. Everything so far has pointed to DA3, which, is okay, but NOT why I waited so patiently and paid so much money for DA2. If you never played earlier games and DA2 was your first game, you're STILL left wanting to find out wtf is going on. There's so much left unanswered! Yes, playing DA2 was fun, but I bought/played it for the story and the interaction between the party members, (not to mention DAO had better party interaction) so I was sadly disappointed. The only thing I can say at this point is: Bioware/EA must be planning on a lot more DLC and another sequel. At least one can fervently hope.

Heh. Never know after this kerfluffle DA2 has raised up.

Quite a lot of people are not going to buy any DLC's (if they are made) nor pre-order the next da game if it comes out. More wait a couple weeks and see.

Some have washed their hands of the franchise entirely.

*slow golf clap* Way to go Mr Laidlaw. Way to go.

[jds1bio]

This thread is getting spoilerrific at this late hour, but I don't want the thread to be locked. Please edit your posts for potential late-game spoilers.

[Roxlimn]

PlumPaul82393:

How did hawke change the world? If i remember correctly wasn't it the andy man anders who did?

No.

Firstly, Anders was only in the position to effect what he did through Hawke's influence. Without Hawke's support, rivalry, or inspiration, Anders would probably have remained some two-bit healer in Darktown.

Secondly, Ander's action did not precipitate events. Varric WAS VERY CLEAR on this. It was Hawke who did that, not Anders.

LookingGlass93:

Acts 1 and 2 look like a Rise to Power game if you come in with the intention of looking at them that way. However, many main quest consequences only come to light in Act 3. As a Rise to Power plot, Acts 1 and 2 and unfocused and badly paced. As parts of a larger arc, they perform significantly better.

[Morroian]

Janbrook4 wrote...

Does anyone else feel like DA2 is just a large DLC? When you look at the end of Origins andall the loose ends in Awakenings, Witch Hunt and DA2, you end up wanting/needing more. Everything so far has pointed to DA3, which, is okay, but NOT why I waited so patiently and paid so much money for DA2.  

Nope, to me DA2 seems pretty complete in and of itself (leaving aside questions of quality). Sure there are plot threads left hanging and they are larger threads than DAO but the story in DA2 is complete, the story of the confluence of events in Kirkwall and the beginning of the mage/templar war and Hawke.  

Modifié par Morroian, 13 avril 2011 - 05:01 .

[Janbrook4]

neppakyo wrote...

Quite a lot of people are not going to buy any DLC's (if they are made) nor pre-order the next da game if it comes out. More wait a couple weeks and see.

Some have washed their hands of the franchise entirely.

I'm a sucker for a good story, so I HAVE to get them.... 

[lobi]

/rant

[Morroian]

neppakyo wrote...

*slow golf clap* Way to go Mr Laidlaw. Way to go.

Do you really think Mike Laidlaw made all the decisions on the direction of the game by himself?

[PlumPaul93]

Roxlimn wrote...

PlumPaul82393:

How did hawke change the world? If i remember correctly wasn't it the andy man anders who did?

No.

Firstly, Anders was only in the position to effect what he did through Hawke's influence. Without Hawke's support, rivalry, or inspiration, Anders would probably have remained some two-bit healer in Darktown.

Secondly, Ander's action did not precipitate events. Varric WAS VERY CLEAR on this. It was Hawke who did that, not Anders.

LookingGlass93:

Acts 1 and 2 look like a Rise to Power game if you come in with the intention of looking at them that way. However, many main quest consequences only come to light in Act 3. As a Rise to Power plot, Acts 1 and 2 and unfocused and badly paced. As parts of a larger arc, they perform significantly better.

He def didn't do that in the main story of DA2 and if he does it another game or DLC that is about the missing years then yes Hawke didn't change the world in DA2

[Merced652]

Morroian wrote...

neppakyo wrote...

*slow golf clap* Way to go Mr Laidlaw. Way to go.

Do you really think Mike Laidlaw made all the decisions on the direction of the game by himself?

At the very least he has vehemently defended every single one of them except reused dungeons and even he offered excuses. So yes. 

Modifié par Merced652, 13 avril 2011 - 05:18 .

[Roxlimn]

Morroian wrote...

neppakyo wrote...
*slow golf clap* Way to go Mr Laidlaw. Way to go.

Do you really think Mike Laidlaw made all the decisions on the direction of the game by himself?

I don't think he even realizes who and what Mr. Laidlaw is.  He just thinks there's a single person determining the entirety of the process of development and he rules the place like an omnipotent god where everything that happens happens according to plan.

Had to cut content?

Hey, that was part of the plan from the start!  Mr. Laidlaw decreed it to be so.

[Roxlimn]

PlumPaul82393

He def didn't do that in the main story of DA2 and if he does it another game or DLC that is about the missing years then yes Hawke didn't change the world in DA2.

He mentions what I said explicitly. Turn on the subtitles, read the story, and put it down on paper. Use screen-capture if you have to. Raid YouTube and play it over and over. It's there. Hawke's actions in DA2 is what caused what happens afterwards.

[Sabriana]

Hmm... Hawke in my playthrough completely ignored Anders save for the first quest (Karl). No, I don't own Awakenings. I don't need it, my Warden is done, and I don't need another one. I also don't want my DA:O stories yanked around by an Exp pack. So, no Exp pack for me, thank you all the same.

I have no connection whatsoever to Anders. I don't know the guy at all. He's just as new to me as Aveline, Varric and Fenris. He annoyed the heck out of me, so I had Hawke ignore him. His friendship/rivalry was smack in no-mans-land.

However, the outcome was the same. He did exactly the same thing that he did to friend/rival Hawke (or so I've been reading). So no, Hawke had no influence over Anders' actions in my play through - none at all.

[graavigala85]

Slugwood wrote...

Forced to support the Templars? Are you referring to Meredith's quest-giving type stuff?

My wild quess is that OP ment tht he is forced to kill Orsino no mater what, removing the choice to actually side with mages or templars because the end is just poorly slapped together

[TJSolo]

Roxlimn wrote...

PlumPaul82393

He def didn't do that in the main story of DA2 and if he does it another game or DLC that is about the missing years then yes Hawke didn't change the world in DA2.

He mentions what I said explicitly. Turn on the subtitles, read the story, and put it down on paper. Use screen-capture if you have to. Raid YouTube and play it over and over. It's there. Hawke's actions in DA2 is what caused what happens afterwards.

Funny as I thought Varric's tale was to put the action(inaction?) of Hawke to the Seeker to disprove the theory of how much was actually caused by Hawke. The Seeker appears to be more surprised as the story goes on at how little a role Hawke played in the 'big picture'.

[Dave of Canada]

Merced652 wrote...

At the very least he has vehemently defended every single one of them except reused dungeons and even he offered excuses. So yes. 

Armchair development is fun.

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 13 avril 2011 - 05:28 .

[erynnar]

Roxlimn wrote...

PlumPaul82393:

How did hawke change the world? If i remember correctly wasn't it the andy man anders who did?

No.

Firstly, Anders was only in the position to effect what he did through Hawke's influence. Without Hawke's support, rivalry, or inspiration, Anders would probably have remained some two-bit healer in Darktown.

Secondly, Ander's action did not precipitate events. Varric WAS VERY CLEAR on this. It was Hawke who did that, not Anders.

LookingGlass93:

Acts 1 and 2 look like a Rise to Power game if you come in with the intention of looking at them that way. However, many main quest consequences only come to light in Act 3. As a Rise to Power plot, Acts 1 and 2 and unfocused and badly paced. As parts of a larger arc, they perform significantly better.

Just because Varric says so means nothing.  That is a ham fisted device to assure us, the players, that our Hawke was more involved in the events than they turned out to be. Show, don't tell, is the rule of thumb of good writing. Varric telling us that without Hawke it wouldn't have gone down the way it did, while the game's actions showed us no such thing? Sorry, does not compute...EXTERMINATE!  Wait how did a Dalek get in here?

ROFL edited for late night, glass of wine, spelling...

Modifié par erynnar, 13 avril 2011 - 05:27 .