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Horrible end to a disappointing game


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#51
juweee

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Roxlimn wrote...


Firstly, Anders was only in the position to effect what he did through Hawke's influence. Without Hawke's support, rivalry, or inspiration, Anders would probably have remained some two-bit healer in Darktown.


I disagree. I have had one playthrough where all I have done is Anders' first quest (because you HAVE to to progress in the game) and the end-game decisions have still happened as if I had enabled him the entire way through.

It seems he's destined to do it, and he does, with or without your help/rivalry/anything. Your interactions with him just put that much more of a personal spin on things.

#52
Merced652

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Sabriana wrote...

Hmm... Hawke in my playthrough completely ignored Anders save for the first quest (Karl). No, I don't own Awakenings. I don't need it, my Warden is done, and I don't need another one. I also don't want my DA:O stories yanked around by an Exp pack. So, no Exp pack for me, thank you all the same.


I agree completely, but it was pointed out to me, and left me rather upset about the whole thing, that the game assumes your warden did awakening if you didn't import a save with awakening plot flags. Check your codex entry on the HoF and it'll say you took the mantle of warden commander. I fully intended to RP that my warden would never accept that commision because he was off searching for morrigan immediately following the events of DAO. I am apparently deprived of this ability. Thank you Gaider. 

#53
jds1bio

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TJSolo wrote...

Funny as I thought Varric's tale was to put the action(inaction?) of Hawke to the Seeker to disprove the theory of how much was actually caused by Hawke. The Seeker appears to be more surprised as the story goes on at how little a role Hawke played in the 'big picture'.


True.  It's as if someone played a joke on The Seeker when it came to the Champion's story.  Varric sets her straight while the story tells the player the joke's on them at the end.

#54
erynnar

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Roxlimn wrote...

PlumPaul82393

He def didn't do that in the main story of DA2 and if he does it another game or DLC that is about the missing years then yes Hawke didn't change the world in DA2.


He mentions what I said explicitly. Turn on the subtitles, read the story, and put it down on paper. Use screen-capture if you have to. Raid YouTube and play it over and over. It's there. Hawke's actions in DA2 is what caused what happens afterwards.


How about some links to these Youtube videos that will prove my, excuse me, BioWare's Hawke really was the one who caused it all?  I suppose there is some video that Hawke was in Amaranthine convincing Anders to take in <spoiler>?  Or maybe you mean the McGuffin that was sooo not needed to explain Meredith's <spoiler>?  Or maybe Hawke taught O <spoiler> magic?  Ah yes, the actions of BioWare's Hawke are soooo really involved. I can see it now. I mean Hawke leaving Anders in his clinic until Act 3 really had an impact..not.

Yeah, cuz if Hawke hadn't been there, Bartrand wouldn't have found the <spoiler> from someone else and made it to the <spoiler> and found the <spoiler>.  Really?  Story has more holes than the Blooming Rose, and my redacted sentences, just saying.

#55
Cody211282

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jds1bio wrote...

TJSolo wrote...

Funny as I thought Varric's tale was to put the action(inaction?) of Hawke to the Seeker to disprove the theory of how much was actually caused by Hawke. The Seeker appears to be more surprised as the story goes on at how little a role Hawke played in the 'big picture'.


True.  It's as if someone played a joke on The Seeker when it came to the Champion's story.  Varric sets her straight while the story tells the player the joke's on them at the end.


Thats because he is basicly just HPS(Hawke Postal Service).

#56
erynnar

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Cody211282 wrote...

jds1bio wrote...

TJSolo wrote...

Funny as I thought Varric's tale was to put the action(inaction?) of Hawke to the Seeker to disprove the theory of how much was actually caused by Hawke. The Seeker appears to be more surprised as the story goes on at how little a role Hawke played in the 'big picture'.


True.  It's as if someone played a joke on The Seeker when it came to the Champion's story.  Varric sets her straight while the story tells the player the joke's on them at the end.


Thats because he is basicly just HPS(Hawke Postal Service).


Hawke...Champion of Chores! :lol:

#57
PlumPaul93

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erynnar wrote...

Cody211282 wrote...

jds1bio wrote...

TJSolo wrote...

Funny as I thought Varric's tale was to put the action(inaction?) of Hawke to the Seeker to disprove the theory of how much was actually caused by Hawke. The Seeker appears to be more surprised as the story goes on at how little a role Hawke played in the 'big picture'.


True.  It's as if someone played a joke on The Seeker when it came to the Champion's story.  Varric sets her straight while the story tells the player the joke's on them at the end.


Thats because he is basicly just HPS(Hawke Postal Service).


Hawke...Champion of Chores! :lol:


nah he changed the world by cleaning out his house Image IPB

#58
Taritu

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Hawke's decisions change nothing. Odds are high the expedition would have happened without him. Meredith and Orsino certainly could have handled the Arishok. And it doesn't matter who you side with at the end, either way the world is in the same state. You happen to be there, but the key decisions are made by other people, most especially Bartrand, Meredith and Anders.

Without the Warden the Blight would not have been stopped, and Ferelden would have fallen. You choose who becomes the King of the Dwarves, with long term meaning. You choose whether to heal/kill the werweolves or Dalish, you choose who becomes King/Queen of Ferelden, you choose whether the mages of the Circle live, die or are imprisoned. These are big choices. When I side with the mages in Act III as best I can tell, I don't even save many of them (if I do, it's sure not clear.) I sure don't stop what happens afterwards. I fight both Orsino (in the stupidest boss fight in the entire game, where he's angry at Meredith so he does somehting moronic and fights me, his ally, not her) and Meredith.

Sorry, I actually liked the story, but the world would not be substantially different if Hawke had never stayed in Kirkwall. Only significant thing I really did was help Flemeth, as far as I can tell.

#59
Cody211282

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Taritu wrote...

Hawke's decisions change nothing. Odds are high the expedition would have happened without him. Meredith and Orsino certainly could have handled the Arishok. And it doesn't matter who you side with at the end, either way the world is in the same state. You happen to be there, but the key decisions are made by other people, most especially Bartrand, Meredith and Anders.

Without the Warden the Blight would not have been stopped, and Ferelden would have fallen. You choose who becomes the King of the Dwarves, with long term meaning. You choose whether to heal/kill the werweolves or Dalish, you choose who becomes King/Queen of Ferelden, you choose whether the mages of the Circle live, die or are imprisoned. These are big choices. When I side with the mages in Act III as best I can tell, I don't even save many of them (if I do, it's sure not clear.) I sure don't stop what happens afterwards. I fight both Orsino (in the stupidest boss fight in the entire game, where he's angry at Meredith so he does somehting moronic and fights me, his ally, not her) and Meredith.

Sorry, I actually liked the story, but the world would not be substantially different if Hawke had never stayed in Kirkwall. Only significant thing I really did was help Flemeth, as far as I can tell.


Yet another (slightly)ontime delivery by HPS, serving Kirkwall proudly every 3-4 years.

Warning HPS and co. are not responsible for your loveones randomly exploding if brushed into, people poping into reality in the preasence of HPC and co. is a normal occurrence.

HPS also transports dead bodys for no extra cost, because "We found the thing you live for"

#60
jds1bio

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Taritu wrote...

Sorry, I actually liked the story, but the world would not be substantially different if Hawke had never stayed in Kirkwall. Only significant thing I really did was help Flemeth, as far as I can tell.


Yes, that's it!  The one Thedas-impacting thing that Hawke was responsible for.  I wish that the Flemeth task (no spoiler) was the last quest/scene of the game.  Rising above the chaos of the city below, wondering what comes next, her words would have had more weight then.

#61
Sabriana

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@ erynnar

Your posts crack me up. Seriously. Stop it, I'm drawing concerned stares here, okay.

As for the expedition, it really gets my goat that people seem to think it wouldn't have happened without Hawke. In my play-through (and my second, which is hanging in the wind, barely breathing) Hawke comes across a person who'd love to invest. As a matter of fact, he's very persistent trying to achieve his goal. Varric, who was with her, didn't object at all, he was even encouraging.

Wth? If not Hawke, I'm sure alternate-money-dude would've ferreted out someone else, or might even have approached Varric himself.

#62
Morroian

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Taritu wrote...

Sorry, I actually liked the story, but the world would not be substantially different if Hawke had never stayed in Kirkwall. Only significant thing I really did was help Flemeth, as far as I can tell.

Sorry but this is just a matter of opinion and the other interpretation is just as valid and arguably how it was intended to be interpreted,

#63
Morroian

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Sabriana wrote...

Wth? If not Hawke, I'm sure alternate-money-dude would've ferreted out someone else, or might even have approached Varric himself.

Even if that did occur and they got Anders maps you could argue that they wouldn't have made it as far as the <spoiler> without Hawke.

#64
Sabriana

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Morroian wrote...

Sabriana wrote...

Wth? If not Hawke, I'm sure alternate-money-dude would've ferreted out someone else, or might even have approached Varric himself.

Even if that did occur and they got Anders maps you could argue that they wouldn't have made it as far as the <spoiler> without Hawke.


Hawke was not essential for getting the maps either. Varric puts her on to Anders. He could've done so with anyone else as well. Anders didn't give Hawke the maps, he wanted a favor for a favor. He wasn't stuck on Hawke to do him that favor. Anyone else would've done for him just as nicely, she was just the one who approached him.

#65
ms_sunlight

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Am I the only one who doesn't get that the fact that it probably would have all happened anyway is the whole point of the story?

#66
Sabriana

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ms_sunlight wrote...

Am I the only one who doesn't get that the fact that it probably would have all happened anyway is the whole point of the story?


If it is, then they cleverly concealed that with their ad campaign. I for one was led to believe that Hawke was a character I (the player) shape and develop, along with the companions and their individual relationships.

#67
Raphael diSanto

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Sabriana wrote...

ms_sunlight wrote...

Am I the only one who doesn't get that the fact that it probably would have all happened anyway is the whole point of the story?


If it is, then they cleverly concealed that with their ad campaign. I for one was led to believe that Hawke was a character I (the player) shape and develop, along with the companions and their individual relationships.


You absolutely do create, shape and develop Hawke. The fact that the non-chosen dialogue lines reflect your past personality-type picks show that. If you tell Hawke to be sarcastic enough times, he'll be sarcastic on his own.
At the end of the day, those events -were- going to happen. Anders is right about that, at least. All you get to do is choose how Hawke -responds- to events unfolding around him, much like in real life.
While playing a middle-of-the-road Hawke, I found an interesting and telling line in the dialogue. I forget exactly where it came from now and I'm going to paraphrase it here, because I don't remember the exact words, but it was basically something like:

"I'm not here to make a stand for anything, I just keep finding myself in these situations"

That, to me, sums up the entire raison d'etre of the story in DA2. You have a refugee from Kirkwall who isn't trying for power, even if you wish to view Acts 1 & 2 in that way. He's (I'll say 'he' for now, just to make the grammar easier) trying to take care of his family, the best way he can. That means working for smugglers or mercenaries in Act 1. He's very good at what he does, which brings him to the attention of more important people, and you get the events of Act 2.

He doesn't really -want- to do anything except make a home for himself and his family in Kirkwall, but life keeps throwing curveballs at him and he has to deal with them. How Hawke deals with what happens is what you get to choose. How he deals with it, and how it affects him.

I will definitely agree that this ... method... of telling a story in a BioWare game is new and untried. They may decide that it was a miserable failure and not do it again, based on player reactions. I don't care, personally - I like both the "hero" story of DAO, where you're saving the world, and I like the more personal story of DA2, where you're not saving anything, you're reacting to life in a powderkeg of a city.

I will also definitely agree that because its untried and new, people were blindsided by it. People expected a standard BioWare game, where you play the hero and save the day, and you choose how that day is saved. Paragon or Renegade? Sacrifice or unholy covenant with the witch? Keep the base or sell the base?

That's a fair and valid expectation to have, I think, and the cries of "but, but, that's not what I got" are justifiable.

Personally speaking, I found the story in DA2 to be much more immersive and less requiring of the trusty old suspenders of narrative belief. There's no pressing danger through Acts 1 and 2, you're not "Racing against the clock" like you are in DAO, and so the sidequests don't feel forced. I'm not trying to rescue Martha's Cat for the 100th time while the Blight is sweeping across Ferelden.

In fact, the quests in this game (to me) didn't really feel like they could be divided into "main" and "side" quests anyway. Obviously, from a technical standpoint, main quests are "quests that advance the main story" and thusly, it is so, but without that overarching threat like the Blight, there's much less urgency.

Also, to clarify - I think I may have mis-worded my point in my earlier post.

You, the player, are obviously playing through Hawke's story. And very true, the events of the game are about Hawke and his companions and family. The end-of-Act 1 main quest obviously has nothing to do with Kirkwall, the city. But the overarching story being told in the game itself is the story of the implosion of Kirkwall. This is the backdrop to Hawke's story, much as the American Civil War is the backdrop to Gone With the Wind. The only difference is that Hawke's more caught up in the events of the Implosion of Kirkwall than Scarlett O'Hara ever was with the Civil War.

I found the device to be a refreshing change in this sea of copypasta save-the-day RPGs, but I'll conceded that a) it isn't to everyone's taste, especially those who need to be the hero in their games, and B) it blindsided a lot of people (myself included) who were expecting one of those aforementioned copypasta save-the-day stories.

The moment where it first hit me was during the second act. No spoilers, but towards the end of the second act, an event happened that made me realize that events in Kirkwall were spinning out of control, out of control of any one person, be it the Knight Commander, the Arishok, the Viscount, anyone. It was then that I realized that what the story was actually about, was Hawke trying to survive in this tumultuous time, and do the best that he can.

Aveline, I believe, calls Hawke "the eye of the storm" at one point. I think that's very telling.

Modifié par Raphael diSanto, 13 avril 2011 - 12:41 .


#68
Dubya75

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Raphael diSanto wrote...

Sabriana wrote...

ms_sunlight wrote...

Am I the only one who doesn't get that the fact that it probably would have all happened anyway is the whole point of the story?


If it is, then they cleverly concealed that with their ad campaign. I for one was led to believe that Hawke was a character I (the player) shape and develop, along with the companions and their individual relationships.


You absolutely do create, shape and develop Hawke. The fact that the non-chosen dialogue lines reflect your past personality-type picks show that. If you tell Hawke to be sarcastic enough times, he'll be sarcastic on his own.
At the end of the day, those events -were- going to happen. Anders is right about that, at least. All you get to do is choose how Hawke -responds- to events unfolding around him, much like in real life.
While playing a middle-of-the-road Hawke, I found an interesting and telling line in the dialogue. I forget exactly where it came from now and I'm going to paraphrase it here, because I don't remember the exact words, but it was basically something like:

"I'm not here to make a stand for anything, I just keep finding myself in these situations"

That, to me, sums up the entire raison d'etre of the story in DA2. You have a refugee from Kirkwall who isn't trying for power, even if you wish to view Acts 1 & 2 in that way. He's (I'll say 'he' for now, just to make the grammar easier) trying to take care of his family, the best way he can. That means working for smugglers or mercenaries in Act 1. He's very good at what he does, which brings him to the attention of more important people, and you get the events of Act 2.

He doesn't really -want- to do anything except make a home for himself and his family in Kirkwall, but life keeps throwing curveballs at him and he has to deal with them. How Hawke deals with what happens is what you get to choose. How he deals with it, and how it affects him.

I will definitely agree that this ... method... of telling a story in a BioWare game is new and untried. They may decide that it was a miserable failure and not do it again, based on player reactions. I don't care, personally - I like both the "hero" story of DAO, where you're saving the world, and I like the more personal story of DA2, where you're not saving anything, you're reacting to life in a powderkeg of a city.

I will also definitely agree that because its untried and new, people were blindsided by it. People expected a standard BioWare game, where you play the hero and save the day, and you choose how that day is saved. Paragon or Renegade? Sacrifice or unholy covenant with the witch? Keep the base or sell the base?

That's a fair and valid expectation to have, I think, and the cries of "but, but, that's not what I got" are justifiable.

Personally speaking, I found the story in DA2 to be much more immersive and less requiring of the trusty old suspenders of narrative belief. There's no pressing danger through Acts 1 and 2, you're not "Racing against the clock" like you are in DAO, and so the sidequests don't feel forced. I'm not trying to rescue Martha's Cat for the 100th time while the Blight is sweeping across Ferelden.

In fact, the quests in this game (to me) didn't really feel like they could be divided into "main" and "side" quests anyway. Obviously, from a technical standpoint, main quests are "quests that advance the main story" and thusly, it is so, but without that overarching threat like the Blight, there's much less urgency.

Also, to clarify - I think I may have mis-worded my point in my earlier post.

You, the player, are obviously playing through Hawke's story. And very true, the events of the game are about Hawke and his companions and family. The end-of-Act 1 main quest obviously has nothing to do with Kirkwall, the city. But the overarching story being told in the game itself is the story of the implosion of Kirkwall. This is the backdrop to Hawke's story, much as the American Civil War is the backdrop to Gone With the Wind. The only difference is that Hawke's more caught up in the events of the Implosion of Kirkwall than Scarlett O'Hara ever was with the Civil War.

I found the device to be a refreshing change in this sea of copypasta save-the-day RPGs, but I'll conceded that a) it isn't to everyone's taste, especially those who need to be the hero in their games, and B) it blindsided a lot of people (myself included) who were expecting one of those aforementioned copypasta save-the-day stories.

The moment where it first hit me was during the second act. No spoilers, but towards the end of the second act, an event happened that made me realize that events in Kirkwall were spinning out of control, out of control of any one person, be it the Knight Commander, the Arishok, the Viscount, anyone. It was then that I realized that what the story was actually about, was Hawke trying to survive in this tumultuous time, and do the best that he can.

Aveline, I believe, calls Hawke "the eye of the storm" at one point. I think that's very telling.


Image IPB

Modifié par Dubya75, 13 avril 2011 - 01:02 .


#69
Sabriana

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I avoid choosing certain answers because they are labeled 'nice', 'sarcastic', or 'short-tempered'. Because they lock Hawke into a certain way of interaction which I can't change. That may be acceptable to you, but it isn't to me. I tried the 'sarcastic' personality, but she ended up being rude, out-of-place, unacceptable, improper, way out of line, and sometimes slightly psychotic.

Sorry, but that just won't do. My pixel people certainly can be sarcastic/nice/diplomatic/assertive, but *I* want to be the one that guides them. And I want to be the one that decides when they display a certain personality trait.

I don't want to be shocked at what comes out of her mouth. Just because a person is sarcastic/nice/etc. doesn't mean they have to be that way all the time, even in the most inappropriate way.

So, if you like being squeezed into one personality trait, fine. That's up to you, and you are entitled to your opinion. I simply do not share it, and I never will.

#70
Dubya75

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Sabriana wrote...

I avoid choosing certain answers because they are labeled 'nice', 'sarcastic', or 'short-tempered'. Because they lock Hawke into a certain way of interaction which I can't change. That may be acceptable to you, but it isn't to me. I tried the 'sarcastic' personality, but she ended up being rude, out-of-place, unacceptable, improper, way out of line, and sometimes slightly psychotic.

Sorry, but that just won't do. My pixel people certainly can be sarcastic/nice/diplomatic/assertive, but *I* want to be the one that guides them. And I want to be the one that decides when they display a certain personality trait.

I don't want to be shocked at what comes out of her mouth. Just because a person is sarcastic/nice/etc. doesn't mean they have to be that way all the time, even in the most inappropriate way.

So, if you like being squeezed into one personality trait, fine. That's up to you, and you are entitled to your opinion. I simply do not share it, and I never will.


It does in Dragon Age II! :devil:

#71
Raphael diSanto

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Sabriana wrote...

I avoid choosing certain answers because they are labeled 'nice', 'sarcastic', or 'short-tempered'. Because they lock Hawke into a certain way of interaction which I can't change. That may be acceptable to you, but it isn't to me. I tried the 'sarcastic' personality, but she ended up being rude, out-of-place, unacceptable, improper, way out of line, and sometimes slightly psychotic.

Sorry, but that just won't do. My pixel people certainly can be sarcastic/nice/diplomatic/assertive, but *I* want to be the one that guides them. And I want to be the one that decides when they display a certain personality trait.

I don't want to be shocked at what comes out of her mouth. Just because a person is sarcastic/nice/etc. doesn't mean they have to be that way all the time, even in the most inappropriate way.

So, if you like being squeezed into one personality trait, fine. That's up to you, and you are entitled to your opinion. I simply do not share it, and I never will.


*grin*

I never said I liked it, I merely pointed out that Hawke's character -is- shaped by your previous personality decisions. In truth, I prefered the dialogue method of DAO , where I got to see -exactly- what my Warden was going to say before s/he said it.

I'll admit that I like the icons though, it gives me a bit more of a clue to, well, how the BioWare writers themselves view each line. Some of the lines in DAO that I thought were nice (based on the words in the dialogue) were definitely not responded to in that way by the NPCs, which leads me to believe that the writers of those dialogue options had always intended them to be not-nice options, regardless of the words used.

Ideally, I'd like to have both, makes for less ambiguity. Less ambiguity is nice in a cRPG where you can't go back and say "Wait, wait, don't get all offended. I didn't mean it like that. Let me 'splain!"

Modifié par Raphael diSanto, 13 avril 2011 - 01:15 .


#72
Sabriana

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Raphael diSanto wrote...

Sabriana wrote...

I avoid choosing certain answers because they are labeled 'nice', 'sarcastic', or 'short-tempered'. Because they lock Hawke into a certain way of interaction which I can't change. That may be acceptable to you, but it isn't to me. I tried the 'sarcastic' personality, but she ended up being rude, out-of-place, unacceptable, improper, way out of line, and sometimes slightly psychotic.

Sorry, but that just won't do. My pixel people certainly can be sarcastic/nice/diplomatic/assertive, but *I* want to be the one that guides them. And I want to be the one that decides when they display a certain personality trait.

I don't want to be shocked at what comes out of her mouth. Just because a person is sarcastic/nice/etc. doesn't mean they have to be that way all the time, even in the most inappropriate way.

So, if you like being squeezed into one personality trait, fine. That's up to you, and you are entitled to your opinion. I simply do not share it, and I never will.


*grin*

I never said I liked it, I merely pointed out that Hawke's character -is- shaped by your previous personality decisions. In truth, I prefered the dialogue method of DAO , where I got to see -exactly- what my Warden was going to say before s/he said it.

I'll admit that I like the icons though, it gives me a bit more of a clue to, well, how the BioWare writers themselves view each line. Some of the lines in DAO that I thought were nice (based on the words in the dialogue) were definitely not responded to in that way by the NPCs, which leads me to believe that the writers of those dialogue options had always intended them to be not-nice options, regardless of the words used.

Ideally, I'd like to have both, makes for less ambiguity. Less ambiguity is nice in a cRPG where you can't go back and say "Wait, wait, don't get all offended. I didn't mean it like that. Let me 'splain!"


*kicks Raphael diSanto in the shin. But not in a mean way.

:lol: You got me there. Nice work.

But the DAO mishaps  happen, you know. Even in RL. Like when you say something to someone, and that someone takes it the waaay wrong way, lol.

#73
Kimberly Shaw

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Have to agree with the OP in that I also hated the 3rd Act (but I enjoyed the main story quests immensely in the first two Acts). In the 3rd Act the main quests had me going "wait, WHat? Why are you attacking me I'm on your side?" like 500 times (slight hyperbole unless you count the number of foes I killed which is about accurate). This was frustrating because I didn't feel like I could say what I want to say or do actions I wanted to do. I think it was the most railroad tracked I have felt in an RPG in my life in terms of forcing the story to go the way they wanted it to go regardless of your thoughts or intentions.

Especially for a Bioware game. The problems with this game are numerous (70+ pages of "constructive criticism") and the 3rd Act is right up there with them for me. End result, I won't be pre-ordering DA3 and will definitely be awaiting feedback on any further DA2 products (DLC or expansions) before I even think of buying them.

#74
Raphael diSanto

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Sabriana wrote...

*kicks Raphael diSanto in the shin. But not in a mean way.

:lol: You got me there. Nice work.

But the DAO mishaps  happen, you know. Even in RL. Like when you say something to someone, and that someone takes it the waaay wrong way, lol.


OW!

And yes, they absolutely do. But in RL, you can at least explain yourself. In a cRPG, it's a little more difficult. As a tabletop roleplayer, I miss that.

#75
mmu1

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If DA2 was the "Story of Kirkwall", then they stil didn't do a very good job of telling it.

My character supposedly spent ten years living in this virtual city, and at the end of that time the only local I felt like I knew and understood was Varric.

If you think DA2 did a great job of introducing a time and a place, stop and compare it to (for example) how much you'd have learned about Sigil and its people while playing Planescape: Torment... and think again.