147 réponses à ce sujet

[McHoger]

brightblueink wrote...

The longer I'm on these forums, the more I'm starting to think that "RPG" is useless as a genre indicator. Nobody actually agrees on what the term actually means, they just boil it down to "whatever I like."

It pretty much is a useless genre indicator. Originally, it was just used to sell games to people that played D&D. But since video game RPGs can't create a story around the player like P&P RPGs can, they seemed satisfied with trying to ape the combat aspect. This brought us to a situation where people take a game like Baldur's Gate, which is clearly a strategy game, and label it as an RPG.

[srieser]

brightblueink wrote...

The longer I'm on these forums, the more I'm starting to think that "RPG" is useless as a genre indicator. Nobody actually agrees on what the term actually means, they just boil it down to "whatever I like."

*Ding* You win a cookie.

For me all games that have you assume a character and play through a story is an RPG. In my mind Red Dead Redemption is as much an RPG as Oblivion and Baldur's Gate II.  What the Op is really saying is he wants games based off AD&D2 rules.

[Roxlimn]

That's idiotic. Those rules were terrible. They were good for their time, but regressing to bad mechanics is not the way forward.

[Tantum Dic Verbo]

wowpwnslol wrote...

Correct. DnD rules define RPG gaming.

Can't...stop...laughing...

[Tantum Dic Verbo]

McHoger wrote...

brightblueink wrote...

The longer I'm on these forums, the more I'm starting to think that "RPG" is useless as a genre indicator. Nobody actually agrees on what the term actually means, they just boil it down to "whatever I like."

It pretty much is a useless genre indicator. Originally, it was just used to sell games to people that played D&D. But since video game RPGs can't create a story around the player like P&P RPGs can, they seemed satisfied with trying to ape the combat aspect. This brought us to a situation where people take a game like Baldur's Gate, which is clearly a strategy game, and label it as an RPG.

Some of the things that people here see as definitive elements of an RPG baffle me.  Often it seems to be the fiddly bits of a rules-heavy system without much cohesive design.  It's worth noting that many of the things the OP seem to think are hated exclusively by casuals are hated every bit as fiercely by some graybeards like me.

Oh, well.  I take solace in the fact that the genre seems to be moving generally in a direction of which I approve.  Wouldn't mind seeing developers take the time to implement some of the design ideas well so we can see how they play out, though.

[thesilverlinedviking]

wowpwnslol wrote...

casadechrisso wrote...

I assume anything that's close to classic PnP/D&D style. While that's absolutely fine, those other games are still RPGs, even if they don't meet that standard. 

Correct. DnD rules define RPG gaming.

Clearly you have a very shallow definition of an RPG

[Nozybidaj]

brightblueink wrote...

The longer I'm on these forums, the more I'm starting to think that "RPG" is useless as a genre indicator. Nobody actually agrees on what the term actually means, they just boil it down to "whatever I like."

Only on this forum. 

[astrallite]

thesilverlinedviking wrote...

wowpwnslol wrote...

casadechrisso wrote...

I assume anything that's close to classic PnP/D&D style. While that's absolutely fine, those other games are still RPGs, even if they don't meet that standard. 

Correct. DnD rules define RPG gaming.

Clearly you have a very shallow definition of an RPG

At least he admitted it. All the homers that have been populating this board the last 13 years have been talking trash about any game that attempts to call itself "RPG" that's not a D&D-based game, saying they insult the genre. And then tack on "Ultima", as if by adding one game to the mix they've diversified their narrow definition of "RPG."

Modifié par astrallite, 13 avril 2011 - 05:26 .

[The Train]

make one. if i had money and time i'd do it myself.

[wowpwnslol]

Roxlimn wrote...

That's idiotic. Those rules were terrible. They were good for their time, but regressing to bad mechanics is not the way forward.

So streamlining and dumbing down everything is a good way to go about creating new games? "Bad Mechanics" is just another phrase for "Game was too hard, I want instant gratification".

[gotthammer]

wowpwnslol wrote...

Correct. DnD rules define RPG gaming.

D&D, and almost every other RPG system, is just a ruleset. Ultimately, IMHO, it depends on the GM/DM/storyteller if the game you and your friends will be playing is an RPG, or a turn-based combat simulator (which is what most RPGs are at the very core). 

IMHO, RPGs which kinda emphasize less on the mechanics and more on storytelling (White Wolf's system and Chaosium's basic roleplaying immediately come to mind) are better examples, IMHO, of RPG systems than D&D, regardless of edition.

[Eurypterid]

XxTaLoNxX wrote...

Age of Decadence and Dead State. Both are "classic" RPGs that were put out this year by the Indy scene. The graphics are on par with PS/PS2 graphics, which is still by today's standards... decent. But the gameplay, environment, and story are the most important qualities in games like those and within a few minutes you will be immersed in the games, by the end you will feel good about spending your time on those games.

As noted, these aren't released yet, but they're two games I'm very much looking forward to (and the latter one despite the fact I'm not really a fan of zombie games or the whole zombie genre).

What's an RPG? As a noted judge once said about pornography: I know it when I see it.

[PPF65]

gotthammer wrote...

wowpwnslol wrote...

Correct. DnD rules define RPG gaming.

D&D, and almost every other RPG system, is just a ruleset. Ultimately, IMHO, it depends on the GM/DM/storyteller if the game you and your friends will be playing is an RPG, or a turn-based combat simulator (which is what most RPGs are at the very core). 

IMHO, RPGs which kinda emphasize less on the mechanics and more on storytelling (White Wolf's system and Chaosium's basic roleplaying immediately come to mind) are better examples, IMHO, of RPG systems than D&D, regardless of edition.

That depends completly on the game master. If you play a D&D campaign with a rules lawyer as your DM, then yeah, not much emphasis on the RP aspect of RPG. But you get someone creative, and maybe a little theatrical and mad to run the game, and you've got the makings of a great RPG experience.

Also, IMO, White Wolf games aren't on the same level as D&D. Theres some cool things there (Werewolf the Apocalypse is pretty awesome), but  D&D's mechanics and rules, when used creatively, allow for some of the best "holy s**t moments" you can ever be a part of that don't involve someone (real) getting hurt.

Modifié par PPF65, 13 avril 2011 - 06:04 .

[jimmy_smith]

get a lot of interesting RPG games from this topic.
Thanks,man!!

[San Diego Thief]

If I ever become a millionaire, I vow to create the greatest classic RPG computer game known to mankind

[Everwarden]

wowpwnslol wrote...

Vegas isn't an RPG, what a preposterous notion, none of the Bethesda games are. It's a shooter, with RPG elements. The "sand box" concept serves well to mask the poor storyline, though.

An interesting opinion from someone who is a fan of WoW. 

New Vegas>Any other RPG in recent memory (other than DAO). 

[Roxlimn]

wowpwnslol wrote...

Roxlimn wrote...
That's idiotic. Those rules were terrible. They were good for their time, but regressing to bad mechanics is not the way forward.

So streamlining and dumbing down everything is a good way to go about creating new games? "Bad Mechanics" is just another phrase for "Game was too hard, I want instant gratification".

DA2's combat system is not dumbed down.  It's actually more complex than DA:O's.  It's just Normal is so easy that most people don't get to see it in action.  In point of fact, even Hard and NM modes are too easy to actually require a comprehensive systems understanding to pass, though such people will be kiting the majority of the time (since they don't know squat).

Nightmare in DA:O is ridiculously easy.  If you build your guys right, you're just stomping on every encounter in the game, no problem.  It's not the difficulty that's the issue.  It's the design itself.  Having a single spell combo owning the bejeezus out of everything is not good design.  Having a DW Warrior build pureeing everything with hardly a sweat is not good design.

I've played every D&D iteration since Red Box.  Yes, I'm really old.  I've played the most demanding games you have think of.  These new games are nothing in comparison.  DA2 skews a lot towards the easy side, but I probably don't notice the difference.  They're all easy these days.

Good mechanics are geared towards creating an enjoyable gaming experience.  That's because we play games to have fun.  If you want to feel accomplishment, go find the cure for cancer.

[TRUTHMACHINE]

Check out skyrim or witcher2. both WILL be better then DA2

[Merced652]

TRUTHMACHINE wrote...

Check out skyrim or witcher2. both WILL be better then DA2

neither of them are really crpgs, but they will be good, well comparitively speaking anyway. 

[Wolvesleather]

D&D was about rolling stats choosing a race then choosing a class giving a desciption of the character buying equipment choosing spells.

You gained experience found magical treasure gained some new weapon and nonweapon proficencies as you went along mages and clerics gained acess to more spells and higher level spells fighter got able to hit more often thieves got better at thieving skills.

If you're looking for a real rpg stats need to be fixed you gain special equipment by killing enemies none of this having enemies carrying extraneous junk that can be sold.

If an idiot monster has the leg bone of his last victim don't make me able to sell that for cash cause that makes no sense.

There should be multiple ways to do things like get through the door or opening chests.

Why do I always need to run a thief or an engineer type charcter in a sci-fi based rpg with me to be able to get through the door or open a chest?

Why can't I instead be allowed to destroy the door or chest or open it with some other means?
 
For it to be an rpg you gain experience by either killing off the enemy or avoiding them while successfully acheiving your goal.

There should be multiple ways to achieve the goals like if you need a key off an opponent you shouldn't be required to kill him you should be allowed to try to trick him into giving it to you or stealing it off him or possibily intimidating him into handing it over not just murdering him for it.

If it's an rpg don't force me to be the good guy let me be the good guy a bad guy or a morally neutral character that is saving the world only for the reward.

If they aren't going to be making the games for the consoles anymore I won't be purchasing them since I don't normally play games on the computer.

[Skyforc3]

http://www.irontower...186.0.html This is a pretty good article about rpgs.

Modifié par Skyforc3, 13 avril 2011 - 07:00 .

[Cyberarmy]

wowpwnslol wrote...

naughty99 wrote...

What is your definition of an RPG?

It seems to be quite different than my understanding of what a role-playing game is.

Baldur's Gate series, Icewind Dale series. Planescape: Torment. NWN: Hordes of the Underdark (+many user created modules), NWN2: Mask of the Betrayer. Dragon Age Origins (despite its many faults).

After reading your first post i was totally agreed with you. Then i read what you said about New Vegas(hell of a rpg and got even better hardcore mode) and then i saw this post...
You  nearly mentioned all Black İsle games but not Fallout 1&2?
Fallout 2 is one of the most flexible cRPG's with lots of play styles and dont count it as a RPG?
Hımmm....


Edited part:

wowpwnslol wrote...

Correct. DnD rules define RPG gaming.

Oh boy now it figures. You have no idea of RPG gaming...

Modifié par Cyberarmy, 13 avril 2011 - 07:03 .

[Rhys1984]

dnd ruleset is a good underlying plan, but the real rpg experience comes from the people you play with. mapping the dynamic of your local gaming group to computer play, possibly having an npc to be each real life person, is tricky at best.

[Rhys1984]

but you could always use the d20 system too, theres pathfinder which is similiar, theres the green ronin ruleset, the one used for legend of the five rings, old school ad and d, and quite a few others like gurps, but all of them are just a framework for you to build your imagination upon.

[FedericoV]

Ah, classical RPGs... have you ever played Ultima V or Curse of the Azure Bonds? That's are the classical RPG. Instead the OP is describing the IE games that were allready a big concession to the casual market being heavily influenced by games like Diablo II. classical RPGs are turn based.

Personally, I have fond memories of Ultima, the Golden Box, Bard's Tale and the IE Games and I still re-play BG2 from time to time. But at the end it's a place I don't wont to visit anymore.

Modifié par FedericoV, 13 avril 2011 - 07:17 .