98 réponses à ce sujet

[Savber100]

 My premise is simple.

Don't have the paragons=good ending and renegade=bad ending. 

Instead have some paragon choices BACKFIRE on our Shepards. 

Believe it or not being nice and good does not always mean ulitimate triumph at the end. To Bioware fans out there, read books like Game of Thrones where the good guys don't always win. The greatest moral dilemma comes when we wonder whether to stick by with our beliefs and face the consequences of choosing what we believe is right. 

Imagine the surprise if NOT keeping the Collector Station would lead to Earth's destruction rather her salvation. Too many people think that if they choose Paragon, Shepard will win the day.

Come on Bioware... Don't be so black and white where acting like a renegade equal destruction of human race and being paragon equal success. Throw in some gray areas instead of telling us paragon=good results and renegade=bad results. 
 


Surprise us, Bioware. 

Modifié par Savber100, 13 avril 2011 - 04:54 .

[Jedi Master of Orion]

I have never heard this idea before.

Modifié par Jedi Master of Orion, 13 avril 2011 - 03:51 .

[DxWill10]

So, have paragon choices backfire, but no renegade choices back fire? The universe demands equality!

[PlumPaul93]

interesting although paragon doesn't always=good choice sometimes it means most logical choice I could see it working as long as it's not done just for the hell of it

[Savber100]

DxWill10 wrote...

So, have paragon choices backfire, but no renegade choices back fire? The universe demands equality!

Currently (as it seems), renegade choices are going to backfire anyways with seemingly negative reprecussions for not saving the Council and Keeping the Collector's Base.

My proposal will ask for one of the renegade choices to lead to the good ending rather than having the paragon be a "INSTANT GOOD ENDING" button.

It also gives the games an extra replay value!

[CulturalGeekGirl]

I'm not sure we've seen the end of the repercussions of not saving the council. I think not saving the council is going to be the ONLY way to end up with a firmly human-dominated galaxy at the end. Which is supposed to be what some Renegades want.

[KingNothing125]

um yeah i'm pretty sure we've had plenty of opportunities for both renegade and paragon choices to be the "wrong" ones. Rachni queen, Wrex, Collector ship, Geth "heretics"... plenty of ways to influence the outcome, in either direction.

[AdamNW]

1) Paragons let a terrorist run free for 3 hostages
2) Paragons left Tali without a home.
3) Paragons let the Krogans cure the Genophage
4) Paragons let someone live a life worse than death (Sidonis)
5) Paragons risked the Alliance being incriminated so Kasumi could PRETEND that Keiji was still alive.
6) Paragons appointed a man who hates politics to be the human councilor

Paragons are not good ending generators.

[jeweledleah]

AdamNW wrote...

1) Paragons let a terrorist run free for 3 hostages
2) Paragons left Tali without a home.
3) Paragons let the Krogans cure the Genophage
4) Paragons let someone live a life worse than death (Sidonis)
5) Paragons risked the Alliance being incriminated so Kasumi could PRETEND that Keiji was still alive.
6) Paragons appointed a man who hates politics to be the human councilor

Paragons are not good ending generators.

1. I'll give you this one, although it doesn't preclude Balak from being caught later
2.  huh?  both paragon and renegade can get tally aquitted, and paragons who saved veetor and Kal also get an option of ralying the crown to get Tali aquited.
3. paragons do not destroy a piece of scientific evidence, they keep it for future use
4. paragons let someone who is already ridden with guilt have a second chance at redemption and they removed the burden of guilt for cold blooded murder from Garrus
5.  paragons kept potentialy valuable information, including that about the reapers (have you seen the little screenies in there).
6. paragons appointed a man who actualy cares what happens to humanity and the rest of the races instead of a whily politian who's only in it for personal advancement.

try again

edited to add.  a lot of times, renegade choices give you exactly the same outcome as the paragon ones.  from loyalties, to loyalty conflicts, to saving lives to getting people to do what you need them to when you need them to.  sometimes renegade choices make the going just a bit easier.  renegade =/= homocidal maniac.  renegade=/=bad decision.  renegade is just a different way of accomplishing the same goal.

Modifié par jeweledleah, 13 avril 2011 - 05:42 .

[CulturalGeekGirl]

AdamNW wrote...

1) Paragons let a terrorist run free for 3 hostages
2) Paragons left Tali without a home.
3) Paragons let the Krogans cure the Genophage
4) Paragons let someone live a life worse than death (Sidonis)
5) Paragons risked the Alliance being incriminated so Kasumi could PRETEND that Keiji was still alive.
6) Paragons appointed a man who hates politics to be the human councilor

Paragons are not good ending generators.

1) I'll also cop to this being a bad idea. Meh, I tried.

2) There are actually more ways to save Tali if you're a paragon, as jeweledleah said.

3) We didn't let them cure it. I just want to see where it leads. If it leads to a cure we can limit to Wrex's tribe, I'm all for it. Best bro murder lizard army? Hell yes.

4) I didn't do that for Sidonis, screw that guy. I did it for Garrus.  His tendency for crazy revenge-and-glory power trips is what got him shot in the face by a helicopter in the first place. I'm trying to break him of that habit.

5) This one is a wash, for me. Better she have it than that crazy guy who was going to sell it. And who knows, I might need some leverage, someday.

6) We also appointed someone who is willing to be proactive about the Reapers to the council.


No, the decisions I lose sleep over are the Rachni Queen and the Geth. The base... I think I did the right thing, but I am not entirely free of doubt. We'll see.

Modifié par CulturalGeekGirl, 13 avril 2011 - 06:11 .

[didymos1120]

AdamNW wrote...

1) Paragons let a terrorist run free for 3 hostages

Yeah, that's definitely one of the poorer Paragon choices.

2) Paragons left Tali without a home.

Yeah, and Renegades make her totally miserable and balkanize the Migrant Fleet, which she says is even worse than being exiled would have been.  Of course, neither of those are the true Paragon/Renegade options, both of which result in her being exonerated without fracturing the fleet politically.

3) Paragons let the Krogans cure the Genophage

That doesn't happen.  You simply let Mordin keep the data. Nothing is guaranteed to come of it. The krogans certainly do not get to keep it.

4) Paragons let someone live a life worse than death (Sidonis)

Not really the point of that choice.  It's about Garrus, not Sidonis.  Regardless, Sidonis is grateful for a second chance and is relieved to have finally confronted Garrus and what he did on Omega.

5) Paragons risked the Alliance being incriminated so Kasumi could PRETEND that Keiji was still alive.

Well, yeah on the risk, though it may be worth it what with that whole "Reaper" thing. Remains to be seen.  No on the PRETEND. Kasumi damn well knows he's gone and not coming back. She's just glad to have what little of him remains. 

6) Paragons appointed a man who hates politics to be the human councilor

True enough.  By the same token, Renegades appoint a man who likes politics a little too much to be the human councilor.

Paragons are not good ending generators.

You of course realize that whatever you think should result from these choices, Bioware is rather likely to have them generate good endings anyway, right?

Modifié par didymos1120, 13 avril 2011 - 06:16 .

[FlashedMyDrive]

It's simple:

Paragons are do-gooders who try to make as many allies as they can and try to keep peace
Renegades kick people in the nuts and break peoples jaws making everybody hate them.

Modifié par FlashedMyDrive, 13 avril 2011 - 07:43 .

[Katamariguy]

AdamNW wrote...

5) Paragons risked the Alliance being incriminated so Kasumi could PRETEND that Keiji was still alive.

Ummm... my paragon kept the graybox SO THAT the Alliance would be incriminated.

[CulturalGeekGirl]

See my interpretation of the divergent moralities is different.

Paragon = Galactic Unity and positive view of humans a priority, err on the side of trust when possible, try to avoid punching people. Also, sincerity!

Renegade = Human dominance a priority, trust nobody but humans, punch people whenever you want, it's awesome! Also, sarcasm!

Now, I agree with the third and fourth principles of the Renegade. But I think that the "core" values of a Paragon are better when it comes to getting an ending I will like - an ending that has humanity joining the galactic community, rather than running it.

Here's my question: Why do Renegades feel like you got screwed by the council choice in the first game? I mean, all it did was make some aliens dislike you... but part of your character's inherent writing is that you don't care what aliens think!

[drinkurmilk]

I agree with OP. I have faith in Bio, though, and would like to think that the game is far more intricately balanced then "Good - correct, bad - wrong". We'll see.

[CulturalGeekGirl]

Arcian wrote...

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

Here's my question: Why do Renegades feel like you got screwed by the council choice in the first game? I mean, all it did was make some aliens dislike you... but part of your character's inherent writing is that you don't care what aliens think! 

Because all tyrants want to be loved by their subjects.

Then all tyrants should be unicorn pegasus sun goddesses.

Yeah I said it.

[Empiro]

I'll have to agree that so far, it seems like Paragon is just better overall. I think definitely, Paragon should be more "do you stick to your principles, even if others may pay because of it?"

For example the Bring Down the Sky choice is like that, and has been debated on end.

In ME2, the main case of Paragon not working out happens during Samara's recruitment -- if you don't take the renegade interrupt and kill the Eclipse initiate, you learn later that it was she who murdered the Volus, but overall, the consequence wasn't that devastating, and elicited an "oh darn" when it happened to me.

We'll see how the Rachni thing plays out in ME3. I was actually oddly disturbed when I met the agent of the queen on Illium. I think it won't work out.

[Ieldra]

AdamNW wrote...
1) Paragons let a terrorist run free for 3 hostages

Yes...and if that terrorist never does anything again there will be no negative consequences and that was the good end.

3) Paragons let the Krogans cure the Genophage

Yes, and if the krogans don't start another rebellion there will be no negative consequences and that was the good end.

5) Paragons risked the Alliance being incriminated so Kasumi could PRETEND that Keiji was still alive.

Yes, and if that incrimination never materializes there will be no negative consequences and that was the good end.


See the pattern? Paragons are prone to gamble on a good outcome. If that good outcome materializes every single time, and the gamble never backfires, then there is no point in playing Renegades - who are, after all, supposed to be the people who avoid such gambles.

[Ieldra]

Empiro wrote...
In ME2, the main case of Paragon not working out happens during Samara's recruitment -- if you don't take the renegade interrupt and kill the Eclipse initiate, you learn later that it was she who murdered the Volus, but overall, the consequence wasn't that devastating, and elicited an "oh darn" when it happened to me.

That doesn't count - because you can know of it in advance. Pitne For tells you that an Eclipse sister earns her uniform by killing someone. So when Elnora - who's wearing an Eclipse uniform - tells you she never killed anyone, you know she's lying.

[didymos1120]

Ieldra2 wrote...
That doesn't count - because you can know of it in advance. Pitne For tells you that an Eclipse sister earns her uniform by killing someone. So when Elnora - who's wearing an Eclipse uniform - tells you she never killed anyone, you know she's lying.

Of course it counts: not everybody catches that, and you can also skip that part of his dialogue altogether.  And it is of course entirely possible to play a character who buys her story even after hearing that from Pitne For.

[Ieldra]

Here's another problem with the system:

Paragons and Renegades are supposed to be about a style of getting things done. But in the game it's all mixed up with political goals. It is *implied* that Renegades are pro-human, and so a pro-human outcome is implied to be a good end as far as the Renegade is concerned. But many Renegades aren't like that - my Renegade may be a stone-cold hardass and certified cynic who'd rather kill people than gamble on them not stabbing her in the back, but she'd sacrifice Earth if that meant winning against the Reapers and thinks interspecies bickering is a luxury we can't afford.

So in the end, she has a Renegade mindset but the game will paint her almost as neutral because the system is all mixed up with political goals.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 13 avril 2011 - 08:51 .

[NoUserNameHere]

Or you could have multiple endings for each approach. Some good, some bad, based on various outside parameters.