98 réponses à ce sujet

[LyndseyCousland]

I don't actually see what all of you are seeing. =/

[Thrombin]

I would be very surprised if Renegades don't get equally as satisfying results as Paragons. I've not noticed any significant difference in the way Renegade Shepard is thought of compared to Paragon Shepard. Both are considered to be the hero of the citadel, both are pariahs of the council after joining Cerberus.

It's not a case of Paragons are loved and Renegades are hated.

It's also worth pointing out that each decision can be taken on its own merit. I've played a mix of Paragon and Renegade choices for some of my characters and still managed to max out one meter or the other. In fact, a couple of my run throughs have been deliberately taking the major renegade decisions while playing the majority of the game as a Paragon, and vice-versa.

It's quite easy to put Anderson in charge of a Human council and Udina in charge of a multi-racial one.

Just because there are Renegade and Paragon choices doesn't mean your character has to be black and white.

On the evidence of the first two games, I think you can get equally satisfying results whichever way you play.

Regards

Julian

[CulturalGeekGirl]

Ieldra2 wrote...

Here's another problem with the system:

Paragons and Renegades are supposed to be about a style of getting things done. But in the game it's all mixed up with political goals. It is *implied* that Renegades are pro-human, and so a pro-human outcome is implied to be a good end as far as the Renegade is concerned. But many Renegades aren't like that - my Renegade may be a stone-cold hardass and certified cynic who'd rather kill people than gamble on them not stabbing her in the back, but she'd sacrifice Earth if that meant winning against the Reapers and thinks interspecies bickering is a luxury we can't afford.

So in the end, she has a Renegade mindset but the game will paint her almost as neutral because the system is all mixed up with political goals.

I do hope they take this into consideration somewhat in the third game. I agree that there should be a way to be a Renegade without being... well... a racist. More of a loose cannon than anything else. Here's the problem I see... unless ME3 gives you a few choices where you are clearly expressing a willingness to sacrifice human interests for galactic ones, nobody can tell why you're doing what you're doing - if you're making all the same decisions as a pro-human dude does, but for different reasons, you may be unfairly lumped in with him by history.

Hilariously, when I was describing the moral choice thing to a friend who has never played the game, and I borrowed Yahtzee's "Captain Picard or Dirty Harry" analogy, his first response was to blurt out "But Dirty Harry was horribly racist!" So I think that may be where some of those associations come from.

Modifié par CulturalGeekGirl, 13 avril 2011 - 09:41 .

[Smeelia]

I've always thought of Mass Effect as being a story about being the hero and winning the day, a brilliant space opera of hope and victory (with some shady points along the way).  If either Paragon or Renegade ends up in an unwinnable situation then I'll most likely be disappointed (unless it's really well written).  Shepard has always been portrayed as a big damn hero, able to deal with any situation and come out on top.  They could have Paragon Shepard need to make a heroic sacrifice to win while Renegade Shepard can win without dying but that'd give the wrong message (Renegade Shepard isn't really selfish, just dedicated to particular goals without taking morality into account).

The fact is that being nice and good can lead to a good outcome, it may not be as reliable as shooting someone in the face but if you really think that good things can't come from taking a chance on morality then you're not the realist you might think you are.

I've played both Paragon and Renegade (as well as somewhere inbetween) and, while some choices were less than perfectly written, I've mostly been happy with the overall outcomes for both.  I've never felt like I "lost" anything as a Renegade, I always get the job done and I don't take risks by relying on things like trust.  Knowing that the risks would pay off doesn't make the choice any less valid to me, it's just a different route through the story and staying true to the character.  If it helps, you could try thinking of the Paragon and Renegade as separate stories with one more cynical and the other more optimistic.

Modifié par Smeelia, 13 avril 2011 - 12:22 .

[Mangalores]

Problem is really that Paragon Shep is cliche and the Renegade Shep is an ****.
The reason that is the problem is that you get punished for playing neutral (e.g. shooting a terrorist or being quite rogueish in your behaviour but in the end doing alot of good by following your guts)

You can't really mix the options without screwing your chances for optimal playthrough and it's weird that either extreme choices allow you to do that. Why can a Paragon or Renegade do a saving throw in the crew conflict choices but a neutral is considered an idiot because he makes decisions based on situational awareness and a case to case basis not reacting to a pickpocket the same way as to a raving lunatic terrorist?

[SalsaDMA]

My biggest problem is that when I'm playing a paragon character, I sometimes feel forced to choose a blue choice even if I would have prefered the red choice for that particular incident. Simply because if I don't, I can loose too many points and thus be short in points for when I REALLY need them, like keeping my teammates loyal after an infight.

It's the artificiality of this that prevents the system from becoming a roleplaying mechanic, and instead becomes a crotch. Being punished for having to take choices you feel forced into necause of the game mechanics would be even worse.

[88mphSlayer]

the optimist in me would say if you flat-out removed the paragon/renegade stuff that gamers would often take different choices than they would otherwise

the cynic in me tho would say gamers would just complain because then they wouldn't know if they were being good or bad because they just want the santa christmas gift ending

[mr_luga]

They should just toss away this whole paragon/renegade system to be honest, go with a more dragon age approach where everything isnt so clearly black and white in extremes

[Savber100]

SalsaDMA wrote...

My biggest problem is that when I'm playing a paragon character, I sometimes feel forced to choose a blue choice even if I would have prefered the red choice for that particular incident. Simply because if I don't, I can loose too many points and thus be short in points for when I REALLY need them, like keeping my teammates loyal after an infight.

It's the artificiality of this that prevents the system from becoming a roleplaying mechanic, and instead becomes a crotch. Being punished for having to take choices you feel forced into necause of the game mechanics would be even worse.

Bingo.

As noted before, having your Paragon and Renegade be the deciding factor for getting better dialouge choices and plot points stink.

Since when does being an extreme in either side equals that you're a more intelligent or more intimidating character? Being charimatic or persuasive should be a separate from being strictly good or evil.

Give us a middle ground to stand on without having to suffer for being a complex individual where you don't always stand by your principles. It's either that or makes us suffer for standing by our beliefs. Imagine the potential with a system that rewards creating a character that goes beyond a nice, loving hero or a racist, selfish bastard.

The DA team took the dialogue wheel from ME. The ME team should take the morality system from DA (or implement something similar).

Modifié par Savber100, 13 avril 2011 - 05:28 .

[Drake_Hound]

No way not another DA2 ending ...
Forget about this whole idea of equel ending , too bad renegade choices backfire .
Being renegade is about short term profit , being a paragon is longterm without even knowing if it would pay off.

Rather have those simple choices , then stale boring one way end story .
But truth is , you are bing punished if you just click Good and Just click Evil .
It is the correct balance that makes it fun .
While I usually come out Paragon , Doesn´t mean I didn´t shoot conrad in the foot .
Killed the too talkative krogan whiner , Killed the eclipse mercenary by shoving him out of the window ETC.

Sure the main plot lines I choose paragon cause it fits my thinking .
But enough stuff in between I choose what fits right , especially the miranda romance was funny 

[Kamagawa]

just my 2 cents...

I always feel that there shouldn't be any classification of choices.
I often choose either a "renegade" option for "paragon" reasons or a "paragon" option for "renegade" reasons.

eg) save council to rub existence of reapers in tourian counciler's face in ME3. Save Rachni for Zerg-swarming reapers. Save base to make reapers suffer more...etc, etc.
Saving Wrex was because of his awesomeness.

[Schattenkeil]

This collector station thing again. Why do I have the feeling that there are frakkin spoilers around I don't wish to hear.
Anyway, the endings and consequences of your actions are never really about good and bad, the consequences were usually just different.

By my understanding a renegade course would lead to a a human dominated galaxy with a lot personal power for Shepard. Whereas a paragon course leads to a galaxy of a greater whole of all species where Shepard has a lot of friends and connections throughout the galaxy.

I don't know what you heard about the collector station and I don't want anyone to say it now. My idea was always that you actually get some useful new technologies out of the collector base if you keep it, but eventually a commando unit of reaper slaves manages to change the code of the Omega-4 relay which makes passing it impossible and the scientist crew in the galactic core gets indoctrinated. That fair: every possible choice has its own advantages and disadvantages.

[Heavensrun]

didymos1120 wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...
That doesn't count - because you can know of it in advance. Pitne For tells you that an Eclipse sister earns her uniform by killing someone. So when Elnora - who's wearing an Eclipse uniform - tells you she never killed anyone, you know she's lying.

Of course it counts: not everybody catches that, and you can also skip that part of his dialogue altogether.  And it is of course entirely possible to play a character who buys her story even after hearing that from Pitne For.

So your complaint is that if you're a gullible person who doesn't pay attention, you get punished for it?

I'm...well...YEAH!  Of course you do!

For that matter, she goes for her weapon.  My squeaky clean paragon blew her away the instant she twitched and didn't regret it for a second.

[Sebby]

If ME1's criminals are anything to go by, Elnora will end up being a nun or start up an orphanage now that her gang is wiped out.

Yeah, not only does the Paragon/Renegade system punish actual role playing but it rewards one side over the other (Paragon).

[esideras]

Paragon and Renegade is not equal to Good and Bad.
It's more Heroic and Badass. Hero and Anti-Hero.
Sometimes you need to be a hero and sometimes you need to handle things with a rough touch.
On my standard playthrough I don't go stricly on one or the other I go for what I believe is right given the situation - what would I do IRL.

[Kreid]

Savber100 wrote...

DxWill10 wrote...

So, have paragon choices backfire, but no renegade choices back fire? The universe demands equality!

Currently (as it seems), renegade choices are going to backfire anyways with seemingly negative reprecussions for not saving the Council and Keeping the Collector's Base.

My proposal will ask for one of the renegade choices to lead to the good ending rather than having the paragon be a "INSTANT GOOD ENDING" button.

It also gives the games an extra replay value!

No happening, no one would like to do good deeds and be punished for doing so, being renegade, however, you KNOW you are making questionable acts to achieve an end, and those usually have a higher chance to backfire.

I love A song of Ice and Fire but I really doubt videogames are (yet) prepared for reflect such and ambiguous and thought demanding moral scenery, if Paragon decission started to really backfire MANY people would be upset/dissapointed, after all Shepard is supposssed to be greater than life and a Mary Sue to a certain extent so what you are suggesting is nearly impossible.

Modifié par Creid-X, 13 avril 2011 - 10:45 .

[Lapis Lazuli]

blood and guts all over video games gets a lot of complaints from parents...and now you want to make paragon choices have negative repercussions? Parents that are kool enough to let their kids play violent video games have their limits...

[sidequest]

The way I view the Paragon vs. Renegade decision model isn't one of ethical perfection. It's a model that simply unlocks dialogue options. Paragon/Renegade decisions add modus operandi (M.O.) to a player-created character more than simply producing one particular outcome versus another.

It's obvious Paragons don't make perfectly righteous or justified choices all the time. The Paragon decisions are more-or-less the choices that follow short-sighted compassion. Attempting to find a non-violent or compassionate solution to a problem sometimes complicates problems by allowing a killer to escape. The Sisterhood Initiate, for example, on Illium is still alive and on the loose in my game. I'm kind of hoping that that decision will bring another role to her on Illium or with the Eclipse gang as a whole once her story has played itself out somehow into Mass Effect 3. That would be cool since that datapad note left me wondering, and her voice acting was quite good.

As a heavily one-sided Paragon on my first play-through, I chose to DESTROY the collector station (I thought that was a Paragon choice, btw). Destroying the Reaper technology and keeping it out of the hands of Cerberus and the Illusive Man could play itself out in many ways. Preservation of the base also could backfire on humanity in many ways as well.

Renegade options in dialogue and cut-sequence decisions aren't always bad or somehow less advisable morally than making the Paragon choice. Renegade M.O. isn't always a shoot-first-ask-questions later kind of mentality, although it gets the job done many times or can lead to some tense cut scenes between characters. Sometimes Shepard may need to violate protocol by exacting judgment or using force at a pivotal moment.

Paragon/Renegade choices don't force your hand on many of the big decisions. Should you trust Cerberus or not? Trusting the Illusive Man isn't part of being a Paragon or Renegade. Neither is powering up Legion. As a Paragon I was surprised, actually, when I was able to gain both Legion's loyalty and maintain Tali's loyalty as well. Legion's story will be integral to ME3, obviously.

Modifié par sidequest, 13 avril 2011 - 11:49 .

[CreoleLakerFan]

Thrombin wrote...

I would be very surprised if Renegades don't get equally as satisfying results as Paragons. I've not noticed any significant difference in the way Renegade Shepard is thought of compared to Paragon Shepard. Both are considered to be the hero of the citadel, both are pariahs of the council after joining Cerberus.

It's not a case of Paragons are loved and Renegades are hated.

It's also worth pointing out that each decision can be taken on its own merit. I've played a mix of Paragon and Renegade choices for some of my characters and still managed to max out one meter or the other. In fact, a couple of my run throughs have been deliberately taking the major renegade decisions while playing the majority of the game as a Paragon, and vice-versa.

It's quite easy to put Anderson in charge of a Human council and Udina in charge of a multi-racial one.

Just because there are Renegade and Paragon choices doesn't mean your character has to be black and white.

On the evidence of the first two games, I think you can get equally satisfying results whichever way you play.

Regards

Julian

Agreed.  I usually don't play through one way or the other.  I choose what the current Shepard would do.  After a while it becomes second nature.  I finished up my last ME1 playthrough as a Renegade, which I imported into ME2, and will probably end up Renegade, but pretty balanced overall.

When it comes to the tough choices, innocent lives over everything.  When it comes to finishing a job, he gets it done brutally and effectively, and he doesn't hold his tongue when speaking.  When accompanying his crew on loyalty missions, he allows them to make what choices they will, except for when they conflict with his own morality.  Zaeed is sitting in the port cargo hold streaming, but there is a bullet in Sidonis' head with Garrus' name on it.  Shepard didn't feel it was his place to decide what was right for Tali - he followed her wishes.

Shepard would have shot Jack to keep her from doing what she wanted, but he was too slow.  Even if he weren't trying to get in Miranda's pants he would have put Jack in check, because he was tired of her incessant complaining.

Anyway ... playing through consistently choosing Paragon/Renegade is pretty unrealistic if you're playing as an RPG.  At least, IMHO.

[didymos1120]

sidequest wrote...


As a heavily one-sided Paragon on my first play-through, I chose to DESTROY the collector station (I thought that was a Paragon choice, btw).

Of course it is.  You know how to tell?  Because you get a bunch of Paragon points for it and there's a pretty blue star behind TIM after doing it.

[didymos1120]

Heavensrun wrote...
So your complaint is that if you're a gullible person who doesn't pay attention, you get punished for it?

Where'd you get "complaint" from?  I simply said it counts as a negative consequence to a Paragon decision.  I said not at thing about that being either bad or good.  It simply is. 

Modifié par didymos1120, 14 avril 2011 - 12:28 .

[Whatever42]

Ending will be "good" for whatever you choose. You will not win or lose to the Reapers because of your Renegade/Paragon actions. The only difference will be in the outcomes of the side stories and maybe in the method of your victory and the aftermath.

And no, paragon Shepard will not end with a dark Earth ruled by Cerberus and renegade Shepard will not end with humanity as a happy part of the Council with the final scene being one great group hug.

[Empiro]

One big issue I (and my others) have with the paragon/renegade systems is that it really does encourage you to be one-sided in a vicious cycle. You choose the blue or red choice for the "better" outcome, which also generates paragon or renegade points, which in turn opens up more blue or red choices in the future, which generates even more points, and so on.

It's probably too late to change now, but I wonder if a completely opposite system would have worked better -- where the blue/red choices COST you paragon or renegade points (and you have to earn those through other means), and there aren't enough points in the game to let you take the blue or red choices all the time. Ah well, I'm just totally speculating here.

Modifié par Empiro, 14 avril 2011 - 02:29 .

[sidequest]

Oh, another good example of for Paragon moral gray would be choosing to re-write the Heretics as opposed to deleting them in the Sea of Storms mission. I'm willing to bet that that seemingly humane Paragon choice could backfire just as easily as the preservation of the Reaper technology. When the entire sum of Heretic experience and memory are incorporated back into the Geth, who's to say what millions of individual Heretic perspectives will contribute to the collective AI? Will they begin to convert to a Heretical viewpoint even after the eradication of the virus? The sum of Geth experience may outweigh core logic when all those legless individuals re-integrate with core software. Will Legion eventually defect from the hive mind and become the "Heretic"?

[theelementslayer]

I think some things should backfire and others shouldnt. It doesnt have to be 100% of paragon choices were right or 100% choices were wrong. Maybe keeping the base was wrong for a renegade but letting the council die was right because they will have a more unified leadership, and that damn Turian can never airquote me