98 réponses à ce sujet

[Golden Owl]

100k wrote...

I think the important thing is that there is no value in the middle ground of Shepard's decisions that really makes this 2D morality damaging.

Paragon gives you Paragon options, along with raising your rep throughout the galaxy.

Renegade gives you Renegade options, along with raising your rep throughout the galaxy.

Both of these options allow you to often advert difficult situations that would otherwise be difficult. I get that.

What I don't get, is why the Neutral option doesn't also give you some kind of bonus! I mean, for much of ME and ME2, I didn't realize that the best option to any conversation wheel, was located at the polar ends. Despite the fact that Shepard's middle option makes him seem like a rational human being, it yields no reward in the long run.

Example:

Paragon) The genophage was horrible!
Neutral) The genophage was a necessary evil!
Renegade) The genophage kicked ass!

If the player chooses either the paragon or renegade option, they get points. If the player chooses the logical option, they get d*ck.

I agree with you...I play a paragon, but feel Shep comes off as not the sharpest tool in the shed and quite short sighted, especially given the fact that he is meant to be a marine...Idealism is all very well and good and is a desperatley needed sociatal balancer, but in combat and with the galactic stakes so high, I would expect even a paragon Shep as a marine to be somewhat more realistic...His being horrified at Vigil in ME1 for turning off most of the pods to save the necessary few and the issue with the genocide are two outstanding points that just don't make sense, his a Marine God dammit!! He should be well aware that tremendous sacrifies are sometimes a necessary evil...he should be able to see the greater picture....And yes, I am an uber paragon in life, but I can afford that luxury, I don't have to make high stakes decisions.... I can also see Shep as being able to have strong ethical leanings and can be very paragon, but he does need to balance this with at the very least, the ability to at least investigate further before he throws around his judgements (not very pargon mind you) or makes a final decision...That is often the case where the so called neutral can step in (until further info is available, etc....)...Neutral in game is not given the credit it needs, from both a paragon players point of view and from those who wish to actually, fully Role Play (I can't speak for Renegade, haven't played it, so don't know)....I would love to see more thought given to your actual role playing given benefits, instead of punishments, as it appears now...I personally do think ME1 had the better system to achieve that and would like to see it returned for ME3.

[CulturalGeekGirl]

Saphra Deden wrote...

DPSSOC wrote...

Well we kind of ask for the lack of cameos Renegades kill most of those people.  I suppose they could have a related cameo but aside from variations of "you killed my father, prepare to die." I can't really think of anything right now.

There are some cases where a Renegade alternative is obvoius. Say if you took the renegade path on Noveria (the really renegade path where you dont help Gianna or she dies) you could meet Maeko Matsuo. On Feros if you killed Shiala you could meet Lizbeth Baynham.

I'm not sure how you'd replace Fist or Shiala though, but I'm sure with enough brainstorming something could be invented.

If the Council died you should get to meet the new Council.

As others have said, humans should not be as happy with you if you sacrificed Alliance ships to save the old Council.

Eliminating Balak should have weakened the batarian terrorist movement and allowed you to stop both missiles in N7: Javelin Missiles Launched mission. I think this mission should have been unlocked pre-Horizon as well. The trade-off for a Paragon is that they can't stop either missile but they do get an extra conversation and boss fight with Balak, to stop him once and for all.

You can punish Shepard but reward the player. Shepard being betrayed by somebody he helped and having an extra mission dealing with them is a backfire for Shepard but a reward for the player in the form of new content.

So somebody confronting Renegade Shep and swearing vengeance would be a good reward for a Renegade player even if it is technically something backfiring on Shepard himself.

Just a note: Conrad Verner was originally supposed to be a Renegade reward of the kind you mention: he was supposed to only appear in Renegade save files if you had threatened him. Unfortunately the import bugs and even if you finished the Paragon way, he still thinks you did the Renegade thing. This isn't so much a bad design decision, as it is a programming mistake. They were trying to reward you.

That said, I think that killing a person or a race should eliminate future content for that person or race, and not necessarily add new content in its place. Some of this content should be "backfiring" content, though.

Based on the GI article, I think that is what the collector base will be - if you keep the base, you get a lot of cool "The Base is now Backfiring!" content that the people who blew it up are going to miss. This may mean that, after the base backfires on you, you'll be able to complete some cool related missions and salvage something from it... just as we might be faced with a Rachni threat and manage to overcome it. Both mean the decision were wrong, both add extra content, and both reward the player while punishing the decision.

Other than the "aliens hate me" aftermath of the council decision, I still don't see any soiid evidence that Paragons are heavily rewarded. A three minute dialogue with someone you otherwise would have shot in the head? Oh no, how could I possibly live without that! 

[Sebby]

Saphra Deden wrote...

DPSSOC wrote...

Well we kind of ask for the lack of cameos Renegades kill most of those people.  I suppose they could have a related cameo but aside from variations of "you killed my father, prepare to die." I can't really think of anything right now.

There are some cases where a Renegade alternative is obvoius. Say if you took the renegade path on Noveria (the really renegade path where you dont help Gianna or she dies) you could meet Maeko Matsuo. On Feros if you killed Shiala you could meet Lizbeth Baynham.

I'm not sure how you'd replace Fist or Shiala though, but I'm sure with enough brainstorming something could be invented.

If the Council died you should get to meet the new Council.

As others have said, humans should not be as happy with you if you sacrificed Alliance ships to save the old Council.

Eliminating Balak should have weakened the batarian terrorist movement and allowed you to stop both missiles in N7: Javelin Missiles Launched mission. I think this mission should have been unlocked pre-Horizon as well. The trade-off for a Paragon is that they can't stop either missile but they do get an extra conversation and boss fight with Balak, to stop him once and for all.

You can punish Shepard but reward the player. Shepard being betrayed by somebody he helped and having an extra mission dealing with them is a backfire for Shepard but a reward for the player in the form of new content.

So somebody confronting Renegade Shep and swearing vengeance would be a good reward for a Renegade player even if it is technically something backfiring on Shepard himself.

You can replace Fist with that one Turian C-Sec officer (Chellick) and I think you meant Rana Thanoptis not Shiala again(you mentioned her getting replaced by Liz). Rana could be replaced by one of Captain Kirahee's men investigating Okeer's activities.

[Golden Owl]

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...


Just a note: Conrad Verner was originally supposed to be a Renegade reward of the kind you mention: he was supposed to only appear in Renegade save files if you had threatened him. Unfortunately the import bugs and even if you finished the Paragon way, he still thinks you did the Renegade thing. This isn't so much a bad design decision, as it is a programming mistake. They were trying to reward you.

Is that why he says Shep shoved a gun in his face? I had always wondered where that one came from, as my Shep didn't do that.

[didymos1120]

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

Just a note: Conrad Verner was originally supposed to be a Renegade reward of the kind you mention: he was supposed to only appear in Renegade save files if you had threatened him. Unfortunately the import bugs and even if you finished the Paragon way, he still thinks you did the Renegade thing. This isn't so much a bad design decision, as it is a programming mistake. They were trying to reward you.

Interestingly, it actually ignores the Renegade plot flag completely.  You can uncheck it, re-import that save, and he'll still show up and do the Renegade routine on Ilium.  Uncheck the Paragon flag, however, and he's gone.

[didymos1120]

Golden Owl wrote...

Is that why he says Shep shoved a gun in his face? I had always wondered where that one came from, as my Shep didn't do that.

There's even a Paragon version of the dialogue, but it's impossible to access in-game because the import doesn't work right.

[CulturalGeekGirl]

I don't have Conrad in my main save, because after the second meeting I thought he was a little creepy, and decided this was going nowhere good. So I just never finished his thing.

Modifié par CulturalGeekGirl, 15 avril 2011 - 04:57 .

[Endurium]

I tried playing Renegade starting in ME1 for a career character but got tired of her always-rude responses and not a few completely ignorant statements. Oh, and there were those quests you couldn't get or would end prematurely simply by selecting the Renegade (bottom) response. I came away feeling like I was playing Chaotic Evil in a Bioware D&D game.

Paragon isn't always about a good result; terrorist escapes, mercenary gets off with a lie, Aria basically spits in my face after offering a reward, and so on. That said, the game is obviously designed to prefer Paragon since the whole theme is saving the galaxy, and Renegade responses leave me feeling like my character would rather get drunk in a violent bar on some remote colony - to hell with the galaxy!

Finally, sometimes it pays to take the default (neutral) option.

In ME2 some of the interrupt windows are so short I miss them, so for example Sidonis died. I didn't gain any morality points one way or another for it, so that was okay. But I failed a few times to comfort Liara because of the same issue, and that was irritating. Hopefully ME3's interrupts will last more than one or two seconds.

[Golden Owl]

didymos1120 wrote...

Golden Owl wrote...

Is that why he says Shep shoved a gun in his face? I had always wondered where that one came from, as my Shep didn't do that.

There's even a Paragon version of the dialogue, but it's impossible to access in-game because the import doesn't work right.

Thank you didymos...Having now watched that,I'm really, really glad BW dropped it.......Conrad Verner: what a dweep ...

[didymos1120]

Golden Owl wrote...

Thank you didymos...Having now watched that,I'm really, really glad BW dropped it....

Well, it's not really that they dropped it so much as they had to choose just one since the choice wasn't recorded properly. Personally, I find that one just as amusing in its own way.  Especially the squadmate comments after Shep gets slapped by the angry bar owner.  I mean, Jacob got to be funny for once.

Modifié par didymos1120, 15 avril 2011 - 05:31 .

[Savber100]

JKoopman wrote...

Dr. rotinaj wrote...

looloolooigotsomeapples wrote...

They need to bring back Charm/Intimidate so players can choose mostly neutral and not be nerf'd. Or perhaps tie it to their special class skill? Who knows. The way they handled this aspect in Mass Effect 2 is pretty broken.

This. The only problem with the morality system is that it rewards/punishes players by affecting Shepard's persuasion ability. Persuasion should be a skill that needs to be invested in like any other skill. By removing Charm/Intimidate skills, a huge chunk of role-playing potential is removed from conversations and is replaced with meta-gaming.

I've been saying this pretty much since ME2's release. I really hope they bring back the persuasion skill in ME3, but BioWare apparently seem to think that ME2 was perfect in every way so I'm not holding my breath.

It's really telling that I had to hack all my saves and give myself 1200 in both Paragon and Renegade just so that I could role-play a rational and balanced human being instead of a two-dimensional moral cliche.

This. Your words sadden me. I really hope Bioware can give us a surprising twist with the current ME moral system rather than think it's all good and nice. In the end, why even bother with the Paragon and Renagade meter?? Why not let us debate our decisions and give us the consequences of our choices without the game telling us that's nice or mean, good or bad?

I offer a more radical proposition. Scrap the moral meters (what's the point of them again?) and leave the choices and consequences in the games. Bold much?

Modifié par Savber100, 15 avril 2011 - 05:15 .

[Savber100]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Endurium wrote...

I tried playing Renegade starting in ME1 for a career character but got tired of her always-rude responses and not a few completely ignorant statements. Oh, and there were those quests you couldn't get or would end prematurely simply by selecting the Renegade (bottom) response.

Playing a Renegade doesn't mean always hitting the bottom dialogue choice in every conversation, you dolt.

But playing Renegade usually have you act like an ass... which is pretty much the bottom of the barrel. 

[Endurium]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Endurium wrote...

I tried playing Renegade starting in ME1 for a career character but got tired of her always-rude responses and not a few completely ignorant statements. Oh, and there were those quests you couldn't get or would end prematurely simply by selecting the Renegade (bottom) response.

Playing a Renegade doesn't mean always hitting the bottom dialogue choice in every conversation, you dolt.

I see you chose the bottom option. Thanks for proving my point.

Edit: also the manual plainly says the bottom option is generally Renegade, so I was putting it to the test.

Modifié par Endurium, 15 avril 2011 - 05:32 .

[Empiro]

I think that whatever the case, people won't be satisfied unless the morality system is overhauled. I didn't really like the skill system either -- it was basically a skill point sink that you pumped up at every available opportunity, and there was no point in getting both Charm and Intimidate. Also, you still needed a high paragon or renegade score to get the highest ranks (for example, I couldn't talk Jeong down on Feros even though Charm was as high as I could get it).

They need to have a special "neutral position" persuasion opportunity that is unlocked if you have a low paragon/renegade score (or the two scores are close to each other). You could also make it so that in many more cases, one of the intimidate or charm choices is simply impossible, so you're more inclined to be a bit of both rather than one-sided.

[jbblue05]

Savber100 wrote...

Saphra Deden wrote...

Endurium wrote...

I tried playing Renegade starting in ME1 for a career character but got tired of her always-rude responses and not a few completely ignorant statements. Oh, and there were those quests you couldn't get or would end prematurely simply by selecting the Renegade (bottom) response.

Playing a Renegade doesn't mean always hitting the bottom dialogue choice in every conversation, you dolt.

But playing Renegade usually have you act like an ass... which is pretty much the bottom of the barrel. 

Its better than being a naive pansy paragon who's constantly bending over

[didymos1120]

jbblue05 wrote...
Its better than being a naive pansy paragon who's constantly bending over

Oh goody!  A Paragon/Renegade p!ssing match!  Can we have a platform war next?

[JKoopman]

Savber100 wrote...

Saphra Deden wrote...

Endurium wrote...

I tried playing Renegade starting in ME1 for a career character but got tired of her always-rude responses and not a few completely ignorant statements. Oh, and there were those quests you couldn't get or would end prematurely simply by selecting the Renegade (bottom) response.

Playing a Renegade doesn't mean always hitting the bottom dialogue choice in every conversation, you dolt.

But playing Renegade usually have you act like an ass... which is pretty much the bottom of the barrel. 

Although the dolt bit was rather uncalled for, I believe what he was attempting to convey was that playing a Renegade doesn't mean always choosing the first Renegade dialog option that appears in the dialog wheel. Choosing a Renegade dialog option right off the bat may cause Shepard to decline an assignment or otherwise prevent him from accessing content whereas choosing the Neutral dialog and accepting the assignment can then allow you to solve that assignment in a Renegade fashion.

Playing Renegade is more than just holding your thumbstick down and to the right and mashing the A button through every conversation. There are multiple layers. For example, just in Conrad's assignment on Illium, most people's idea of the "Renegade" path would be to shoot Conrad in the foot and then tell him to take a hike, effectively ending the assignment right there and resulting in his death. In actuality, you can take the Neutral path, accept the assignment to go talk to the weapons merchant, then Intimidate the merchant into telling Conrad that he caught the red sand dealers. OR you can take the Neutral path accepting the assignment, take the Neutral path again threatening the merchant, and then berate Conrad for being such an idiot and Intimidate him into going back home. There are multiple ways to play a Renegade without always choosing the first Renegade option that pops up. Sometimes taking the Neutral path actually opens up new and BETTER Renegade options later in the conversation.

Yes, if you only ever choose the first bottom right dialog option in every conversation, you'll end up locking yourself out of a lot of conversations and just come off as being an ignorant, petty, biggoted a-hole. But then, if you always choose the upper right option in every conversation, you'll come off as naive, gullible, foolish and holier-than-thou. Playing either side 100% just leads to Shepard being cast as a walking moral caricature.

[CroGamer002]

didymos1120 wrote...

jbblue05 wrote...
Its better than being a naive pansy paragon who's constantly bending over

Oh goody!  A Paragon/Renegade p!ssing match!  Can we have a platform war next?

PC rulez, consoles suck!




Just kidding guys.

[Schattenkeil]

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

I don't have Conrad in my main save, because after the second meeting I thought he was a little creepy, and decided this was going nowhere good. So I just never finished his thing.

So did I. Keeps me wondering what is so very important about this freak of little consequence.

Modifié par Schattenkeil, 15 avril 2011 - 07:25 .

[didymos1120]

Schattenkeil wrote...

So did I. Keeps me wondering what is so very important about this freak of little consequence.

He's not important. Most find him amusing, often when they get the opportunity to mock and/or abuse him. That's really all there is to it.