23 réponses à ce sujet

[Foolsfolly]

A simple thought occured to me today: if Kirkwall had a standing army so much of this would have been avoided.

Kirkwall is a city-state. It like the others of the Free Marches, does not owe alliegence to any one crown. It controls itself and apparently has a very successful trade realationship with Starkhaven. Because of this, it has need of a defense force as much as any other sovereign body.

And had it had a standing army and not some small little guard outpost then they'd have something to force the Qunari out with. And then the Viscount would have a standing army as a political tool against the Knight Commander.

As is, the Templars are the largest fighting force in Kirkwall, which is completely unnessary considering they're a small police force for the Circle.  And because they're the only real defense the city has there's nothing the Viscount can do to them without risking the Kirkwalls security.

But the whole thing could have been avoidable if the Viscount just created an army. It takes power away from Meredith, gives jobs to the massive unemployeed refugees in Lowtown, and helps strengthen Kirkwall as a whole. There's no reason for the Templars to be the closest thing to a defense force. That's not their job.

So why isn't there a Kirkwall army? And why didn't the Viscount immedately commission one when the Qunari arrived? He had three years before the Qunari attacked, enough time to at least get some men in armor and defend the bleeding Keep.

[88mphSlayer]

Kirkwall needed a Bhelen instead they got a Harrowmont with alzheimers

[Ieolus]

Quite right, Kirkwall was in desperate need of an army of its own.

[Foolsfolly]

88mphSlayer wrote...

Kirkwall needed a Bhelen instead they got a Harrowmont with alzheimers

Either a Bhelen or an Illusive Man. They could even be commoners, their intelligence and sheer ambition would have made a great difference regardless of where they stood.

The closest we get was Petrice who wanted war....and eventually got it, but had no way of prepairing the city for that war. So....thanks your plan worked but now unarmed civilians are being hauled away and people are dying left and right. Exactly, what was your plan supposed to be now? To sit an wait for the Divine to call an Exhalted March?

[PantheraOnca]

I'm sure if there was an army for the previous viscount it either got destroyed or gutted while/after he was killed and dumar got appointed. Meredith probably just stopped any measures to build an armed force controlled by her. we see the templar react unwelcomingly to the guard being competent and effective, any military body would have gotten a similar/harsher treatment.

[TheBlackBaron]

Cost issues, most likely. The city supposedly rakes it in from its control of access to the Waking Sea, but judging from comments of certain characters corruption is rampant within the city so likely not a lot of that money actually gets used by it.

Modifié par TheBlackBaron, 13 avril 2011 - 04:54 .

[Foolsfolly]

TheBlackBaron wrote...

Cost issues, most likely. The city supposedly rakes it in from its control of access to the Waking Sea, but judging from comments of certain characters corruption is rampant within the city so likely not a lot of that money actually gets used by it.

I could almost buy that if there weren't an invading force squatting on the Docks and Meredith using her templars to strong arm her way onto the city. Costs or no costs, this is a moment to start building a force. Even a small one just to help contain the Qunari if they ever tried to break out of the Docks.

[ColdEnd]

The city guard was strong enough to defend the city against the horde of Ferelden refugees; and close it off. So they are a moderately competent, if corrupt, military force before Avaline takes charge; and the game portrays her as an effective leader when it comes to defending the guards themselves and strategic parts of the city against normal threat (notice where the guard presence actually is, Hightown).

Meanwhile, if you look at the the guards' ability to face down threats while their numbers are small (Evets Maurauders, the undead in the cave); in comparison to Hawke & party... you notice that they are vastly outclassed.

Now, compare Hawke vs. the Arishok and his contingent of qunari super soldiers... Hawke has a challenge there that takes a bit to overcome.

By my estimate 1 qunari is equal to roughly 20-30 city guards (a Sten would be worth maybe 50, a Sarabaas could take out hundreds and incidently most circle mages); which means that these 'normal' guards worked as a standing military force in mundane terms BUT they could not stand against either Templars or Mages; much less the organized combined might of a coordinated military and magical Qunari force.

Another way to measure the comparitive strength of a qunari vs. a human... humans when tainted by the blight become Hurlocks... qunari become Ogres. I would say it's a fair bet that 1 ogre is worth 20 to 30 hurlocks.

Modifié par ColdEnd, 13 avril 2011 - 05:15 .

[Tainan7509]

The viscount is the main problem in the game. He is not a good leader and that's why he is killed.If  he can manage to train an army and against templars' influence. he would not be kill by Qunari.

Modifié par Tainan7509, 13 avril 2011 - 05:18 .

[Foolsfolly]

Tainan7509 wrote...

The viscount is the main problem in the game. He is not a good leader and that's why he is killed.If  he can manage to train an army and against templars' influence. he would not be kill by Qunari.

See, that's part of why I made the thread. I can't decide if we're simply not supposed to question why Kirkwall lacks a simple garrison of troopers (or locks to the Keep's gates) or if we're supposed to believe that the Viscount is so stupid and ill-deserving of his job that he can't even raise a small contingant of Royal Guards. Only Local Guardsmen are inside the Keep and they seemed to have been utterly destroyed or all at the Hanged Man at the time of the Qunari attack.

But even the guards are outnumbered. Characters within the game sometimes refer to the fact that if the City were attacked the Templars would defend the people because they're the largest force in Kirkwall. That's a little weird since they're just a small jailor/police group for the mages.

[PantheraOnca]

I am pretty sure the reason Meredith allows him to be viscount is BECAUSE he is relatively ineffective. He got his position precisely for his lack of capability.

[Amagoi]

Onca's probably right. Following that logic, Meredith would indirectly be responsible for a lot of the city's troubles. With a half-decent Viscount: an army could be raised, the guards would be more effective at their job, corruption would either be curbed or at least contained.

So with that, it's possible the Qunari wouldn't nearly be as dangerous as they had been, blood magic would have been so rampant (Templars could focus on their job), and serial killers wouldn't be hiding in obvious lairs while under-trained guards stumble over trap doors.

All this because of some jerk Viscount that thought it'd be fun to kill some Templars.

[Foolsfolly]

PantheraOnca wrote...

I am pretty sure the reason Meredith allows him to be viscount is BECAUSE he is relatively ineffective. He got his position precisely for his lack of capability.

The Templars did kill the last Viscount. But the way I understood it was Dumar was elected by the city's "elite" and since his death Meredith's held off on appointing a new Viscount until one comes by that she likes. Which means, I believed she didn't have anything to do with the appointment of Dumar as Viscount.

Unless by "elite" the seneschal meant "The Templars." Which is likely seeing how Kirkwall operates without any sort of sense.

EDIT:

And I don't mean to bad mouth the Viscount. He's one of my favoirte characters. He's just a well-intended father trying to cope with problems beyond his ability. He's very likable and very well written and acted.

Modifié par Foolsfolly, 13 avril 2011 - 06:01 .

[Mnemnosyne]

She may not have had anything to do with appointing Dumar as Viscount, but I'm pretty sure she made certain he knew that if he pissed her off, he was going to leave office the same way as Perrin. While there's no indication of it in-game at any point, I would not doubt that he tried, at some point, to establish an army and Meredith made it 'subtly clear' that she wasn't going to let that happen. Dumar was clearly not personally powerful, and he didn't seem to have guards that could (and would) stand up to Meredith. I don't think he had any options.

[Tainan7509]

Foolsfolly wrote...

PantheraOnca wrote...

I am pretty sure the reason Meredith allows him to be viscount is BECAUSE he is relatively ineffective. He got his position precisely for his lack of capability.

The Templars did kill the last Viscount. But the way I understood it was Dumar was elected by the city's "elite" and since his death Meredith's held off on appointing a new Viscount until one comes by that she likes. Which means, I believed she didn't have anything to do with the appointment of Dumar as Viscount.

Unless by "elite" the seneschal meant "The Templars." Which is likely seeing how Kirkwall operates without any sort of sense.

EDIT:

And I don't mean to bad mouth the Viscount. He's one of my favoirte characters. He's just a well-intended father trying to cope with problems beyond his ability. He's very likable and very well written and acted.

I'm surprised. The last viscount is killed by templars? wow this makes me hate templar more and more. seriously, one of the biggest problem i have with templars is that abuse of power. Mereidth has no right to control or influence city guard authority and yet she does it ever since my Hawke enter the Kirkwall. The guards said: something about templars demand guards to prevent people entering the city. Anyway, i believe Bioware purposely makes the city and viscount weaker in order to set the story for Hawke. That is my gues.

Modifié par Tainan7509, 13 avril 2011 - 06:55 .

[Foolsfolly]

I'm surprised. The last viscount is killed by templars?

Yep. Talk to the seneschal in Act 3. He'll tell you all about it. Well, he will a bit.

And yeah, there's Templar inside the Keep in Act 3 too. The guards are seemingly no longer in control of safekeeping the Keep anymore.

Anyway, i believe Bioware purposely makes the city and viscount weaker in order to set the story for Hawke. That is my guess.

I can live with that. Although, it would have been nice to see the Viscount try to do something other than sit on his hands and wait for events to calm down. Same with the Grand Cleric.

[Aldandil]

The last viscount was also a bad person, so the Templars actually did what most people would consider to be a good thing. I believe there is some information about this in act I.

[Foolsfolly]

Aldandil wrote...

The last viscount was also a bad person, so the Templars actually did what most people would consider to be a good thing. I believe there is some information about this in act I.

Well, so we're told.

He apparently wasn't too bad until he wanted to throw the Chantry out of Kirkwall...and since the Chantry (and Meredith) seems to run Kirkwall to its detriment in DA2 there's no way to say he was actually a bad guy. He could have been a good guy, but he's vilified by the current power.

Not saying one way or the other here. Never met the guy. But take it with a grain of salt, you know.

[TheBlackBaron]

Foolsfolly wrote...

Aldandil wrote...

The last viscount was also a bad person, so the Templars actually did what most people would consider to be a good thing. I believe there is some information about this in act I.

Well, so we're told.

He apparently wasn't too bad until he wanted to throw the Chantry out of Kirkwall...and since the Chantry (and Meredith) seems to run Kirkwall to its detriment in DA2 there's no way to say he was actually a bad guy. He could have been a good guy, but he's vilified by the current power.

Not saying one way or the other here. Never met the guy. But take it with a grain of salt, you know.

Well, even Seneschal Bran tells Hawke that he was a tyrant, so the Templars were likely doing the city a favor by getting rid of the last vicount. The problem, of course, is they never wanted to step out of that position of power afterwards. Compare Eastern Europe and the Warsaw Pact. 

In Soviet Kirkwall, Templars rule you!

Modifié par TheBlackBaron, 13 avril 2011 - 08:51 .

[Ealos]

Kirkwall is unusual in that after the execution of a Knight-Commander who had tried to stay out of the politics of the region, the Templars ended up in charge of removing the Viscount, and thus in the rebuilding of the city. Unfortunately the new Knight-Commander does not see relinquishing this interim control as being in the best interests of the city.

With regards to the army, would the Viscount have been able to raise it? The first thing we hear entering Kirkwall is that Dumar has been very careful not to come into conflict with Meredith - would she have regarded his raising an army as another attempt to remove Templar control? In Act III even the guard are being pressured to come under Templar control, can't imagine her overlooking a new threat like an army. Similarly the Arishok might have thought of it as a potential threat, and Dumar never wanted to annoy him either.

[ForeignPatriot]

Actually if you read "The History of Kirkwall: Chapter 4" it mentions that after an attack on the Gallows by the old Viscount, the Templars pretty much became the big men on campus.

It even says that it was Meredith that appointed Dumar.

Interesting, huh? Could this mean that the Templars then became the de facto army of Kirkwall?

EDIT dragonage.wikia.com/wiki/Codex_entry:_History_of_Kirkwall:_Chapter_4 linkage

Modifié par ForeignPatriot, 13 avril 2011 - 09:16 .

[Foolsfolly]

I think there's enough of a reason to raise an army. The city needs a way to defend itself and be able to stand without Chantry supervision.

To ForeignPatriot (great name):

There's too many damned codexs! So if Meredith appointed Dumar why is everyone acting like her holding off on appointing a new Viscount is so weird? Apparently, that's Meredith's new job.

...my dislike for the Grand Cleric continues to grow. She could have reeled Meredith in at any time, even before the Idol showed up on the scene.

[Wulfram]

It's a medieval setting, so I'm not sure an actual standing army is realistic. Raising an army when the Qunari arrived would be sensible, but is the city going to be willing to keep paying for such a force indefinitely? Particularly when they've got the Templars there to protect them?

[Tainan7509]

Justice is always stay with people who has power, money and biggest army or force. (don't put fire on me, this is what i learn from Japan History) If you got bigger power, your voice is bigger. too bad this is reality. They can decide what they want. Templars in this case is the perfectly example. They are the biggest player in the kirkwall and no one would ignore them. That's why Hawke came to play an important role.. especially if you are a mage in this case.

Modifié par Tainan7509, 13 avril 2011 - 12:45 .