141 réponses à ce sujet

[Beocat]

Well...I'm guessing that the women (like me) who enjoy Bioware games are not the sort to play exclusively on the wii or play Gourmet Ranch... I didn't even know that was a game...or the other two you mentioned.

I think you should understand that different games appeal to different people. I personally love a good story and some good fighting (not a requirement for games mind you) and I haven't met another "gamer girl" that falls under the OP's description. It's difficult for me to imagine those kinds of games being popular, but someone must be buying them so...just understand that there are still plenty of women who enjoy playing the sometimes violent, great story-driven games out there too.

[Shirosaki17]

My aunt is into that Facebook crap. We don't talk much.

[mousestalker]

In my experience, women that play computer games are almost universally intelligent, attractive and charming. They are dolphinlike in their nurturing and possess a beauty of spirit rarely matched by any other demographic segment.

Now you know.

[Silveryne]

Carfax wrote...
Exactly..  Having one character thats already defined allows for a more personal experience imo, even if the character is completely dissimilar to yourself.

Thats one of the reasons why I'm enjoying Dragon Age 2 a lot more than Dragon Age Origins, because Hawke's story is a lot more personal than the nameless Warden..

That's one of the reasons I preferred 2 to Origins, too.

Well to be fair to the devs, it must be very difficult to create a female character thats aesthetically pleasing, yet strong in appearance.

Most people, including women, are absolutely horrified by the prospect of a woman having the kind of muscle mass required to do heavy lifting or intensive labor.  I was a personal trainer years ago, and every time I trained a female client, they would always be hesitant about lifting weights because they thought it would make them as muscular as a man.

I would constantly have to reassure them that unless they took steroids, they would never develop a man's bulk because they don't have enough testosterone.

So in the end, they (the developers) play it safe by creating stereotypically attractive female characters with scrawny arms and runway model physiques, that are yet still capable of swinging greatswords and hefting mass accelerated weapons.....

These are games after all, and all games rely on suspension of disbelief.

Eh. I agree about some of this -- a lot of women do not want to be bulky (because society dictates that a woman with masculine qualities, such as muscle, is unattractive). But a lot of us don't want to be scrawny, thin little things. To say that we want to look like models is patently wrong. Many women have issues with body image because our culture dictates to us that if we're not super skinny, we're not attractive. A lot of women will take issue with this, though -- I think if I played a game where my character had the skinniest Barbie-doll waist, I'd put it down. Immediately.

I don't think you're giving women enough credit here. We don't mind lithe figures. We just don't want to look like ridiculous pumped figures -- what is associated with working out every time there is a gym commercial on TV. There's a lot of women who are ignorant about the effects of working out, and there's a lot of us who are perfectly aware that we will never hulk out and become ripped, unless we really, really, really tried hard at it.

For every woman who hesitates about lifting weights, there's another one who has been lifting weights because she doesn't want a lot of skin and fat hanging off her arms. Because we like the look of toned bodies, just like how a man wants to be toned. 

Anyway, FemShep isn't a runway model at all, and she's gotten a lot of praise for being a more realistic female heroine. FemHawke actually grates on my nerves because, for a female combatant, she's too concerned with swinging her hips when she runs. 

Honestly, as a father of two girls and one boy, I've seen first hand how gender identities form at a very young age, seemingly independent of environment.

I can't say that I, or my wife ever pushed my daughters into playing with girls' toys or games; not consciously at least.  They just seemed to gravitate towards them on their own.. 

Even now, if I bought my youngest daughter a boy's toy, I doubt she would play with it.  She might be fascinated with it for a day or more, but afterwards, she would abandon it in favor of a barbie doll, or one of those imitation babies which are the new rage.

To be sure, there is DEFINITELY some cultural reinforcement going on; but ultimately, I think that inner nature is the true deciding factor for most boys and girls.

Oh, they don't form independent of environment at all. I imagine that your girls have access to other young girls. I imagine they've watched some TV or watched you play video games. I imagine that they watch what your wife does.

All children imitate their parents to some extent. People imitate their close friends. If you want proof of this, check out how your accent and vocabulary adapts depending on who you are with, or what friends you make. Imitation is a very base psychological thing.

There are many studies about whether the differences between the genders are inspired by nature or nurture.  Certainly both play a big role, but from what I myself have read (and experienced), the latest research seems to be suggesting that many of the differences between boys and girls are hardwired from birth.

http://www.parenting...-boys-and-girls

http://www.telegraph...not-social.html

Those articles pretty much confirms what I as the father of two girls and one boy has witnessed.

Eh. If you want to look for all the evidence in the world to decide that boys are more so-and-so than girls, be my guest. However, I imagine you know that all of these are extremely hotly debated issues, which is why I'm not really going to touch this. There's lots of studies going both ways for these things, and a lot of it comes down to the researchers and their own biases.

And there's a section in one of those articles that talks about boys getting flack for playing with barbie dolls. It does happen. It is a concern. It affects development. And it happens with women, too -- did you hear about the little girl who got teased for bringing a Star Wars water bottle to school, because "Star Wars is for boys"? Here's that article.

http://articles.cnn....atize-kids-geek

And here's an article about boys defying their gender norms. Except now the kid isn't getting flack from his peers, he's getting pressure from adults.

http://well.blogs.ny...-for-halloween/

The above article is a fascinating read, although it might not seem connected to the topic at first. You'll note that a psychologist accused the mother of "outing" her son? Just because you have a psych degree doesn't mean you don't have biases or preferences either... We still think that there is something horribly wrong if a boy decides to do something feminine. And we are encouraged to be ashamed of them when they do that.

I would also like to say that there's also a lot of studies that say that girls are "bad at math". That have been proved to be patently untrue. It has turned out that many girls are simply "bad at math" because it ends up being what is expected of them socially. Nobody might have ever told them that they're horrible at math outright, but they have an innate psychological understanding that they are supposed to be bad at math.

http://abcnews.go.co...tory?id=9658944

There's a lot more factors in this debate of nature v nurture than what we'd like to believe it is. Only after a long time in the distant future will this be completely understood, because the fact that we are still embroiled in debates about what women can and can't do, our concern about whether our kids are going to turn out one way or another... that doesn't promote more neutral gender stereotypes that facilitate children developing in a way that they can discard things as "male" and "female" in nature. There is considerable reinforcement and punishment going on at a very base psychological level.

And really, your children grow up in your house. They are trying to please you and your wife. They are, by no means, representative of all human children.  Although I applaud you for observing their behavior and being concerned with it.

Honestly, I doubt it would make much of a difference.  It all goes back to the nature vs nurture debate.

I've tried EVERYTHING to get my wife interested in computer gaming (the kind of games that I myself play), since it's one of my favorite hobbies and she was always curious as to what I'm doing when I "lock myself in the computer room."

What I discovered, was that although a female protagonist (ie Lara Croft) might get her interested, it was never enough to hold her attention.  She would play for a bit, but she would always eventually quit.  Eventually I decided it was the overall content and theme of the game that she didn't find appealing.

Games that were violent in nature didn't interest her at all.  She would play games on the Wii like Mario Kart (a fun game when you play as a family), or games like Rollercoaster Tycoon and the Sims on her laptop quite readily however.  After reading that IGN article, it's women like my wife that are the ones those developers are identifying as the "female gamer," and not women who play masculine oriented type games like Mass Effect and Dragon Age.

And funnily enough, my almost 2 year old son absolutely loves to watch me playing games on my computer 

In my very first reply, I stated several times that all women are different. I stand by that now. You are going to find women who like ME and DA and action/adventure games. You are going to find women who prefer the Sims. You are also going to find men who have no interest in gaming, or like to play more casual or social games (I know guys that play only Mario Kart and Guitar Hero). All people are different, and to shove people into a box because of their gender would be wrong.

I know a lot of women that are into "violent" video games (myself included). I know some women that are absolutely horrified by violence. Are they horrified by violence because they're women? No, they're horrified by violence because they are simply different people with different preferences. I imagine that your wife has a unique background that had encouraged her social development. I imagine she is genetically different from myself and all the other women that I know personally. She doesn't speak for all women everywhere -- just like how I don't. And you are different from other men!

Brief aside and rhetorical question: My ex and I have considered joining the military (which I actually fully intend on doing after I graduate from college). He is absolutely terrified of the prospect of getting hurt or dying. Neither prospect bothers me that much. We both play video games. Am I more "masculine" than he is because he is scared of being hurt, even though I am a woman? Is he more "feminine" than I am because he doesn't want to be hurt, even though he is a man? No, we just have very, very, very different outlooks on life. Because we are very, very, very different people.

I really can't emphasize enough that we don't play video games because we're horrible genetic mutants closer to men than we are our own gender, but because the individual variables -- perhaps biological, but social and historical play a MASSIVE role -- that define our character and personality traits have placed us there. We are people, just like you, with all the same social, physical, and mental concerns you have. Please don't place us into a box because we've got an X and you've got a Y.

Modifié par Silveryne, 13 avril 2011 - 05:36 .

[ciaweth]

Carfax wrote...

ciaweth wrote...

This thread contains so many egregious examples of confirmation bias, I don't know where to begin.  So I won't, because even describing my personal experience, and the experiences of the people close to me, wouldn't even make a dent in the preconceived notions on display here.

Part of the thrill of debating and discussing is that some part of us always hopes to "win" by convincing the other side.

If your arguement is strong, then who's to say that you won't not only make a dent, but completely sweep aside many of those preconceived notions that you find so distasteful?

Because other folks are pelting this thread with their own experiences and good math, and it doesn't seem to be taking.  I deal with confirmation bias on this very issue so often (I work in the game industry, in addition to being a woman--not a frigging "girl gamer"--who enjoys games) that it gets tiresome to argue with those who are 100% certain that their own experiences comprise The Universal Experience. 

In the end, it doesn't matter how strong my argument may be.  There will always be some fool bent on explaining how the female gaming demographic is tiny, how women only play Farmville, and how women who don't fit into the casual gaming pigeonhole must be some singular type that is somehow less feminine, or a gamer girl with pigtails and an obsession with the color pink.  (Not that I have any beef with folks who do fit into those categories.)

I'll gladly spend time debating with folks who ask "What is the truth of the situation?"  However, "This is how it is.  It's on you to change my mind," is a non-starter for everyone but masochists.

[Silveryne]

ciaweth wrote...

Carfax wrote...

ciaweth wrote...

This thread contains so many egregious examples of confirmation bias, I don't know where to begin.  So I won't, because even describing my personal experience, and the experiences of the people close to me, wouldn't even make a dent in the preconceived notions on display here.

Part of the thrill of debating and discussing is that some part of us always hopes to "win" by convincing the other side.

If your arguement is strong, then who's to say that you won't not only make a dent, but completely sweep aside many of those preconceived notions that you find so distasteful?

Because other folks are pelting this thread with their own experiences and good math, and it doesn't seem to be taking.  I deal with confirmation bias on this very issue so often (I work in the game industry, in addition to being a woman--not a frigging "girl gamer"--who enjoys games) that it gets tiresome to argue with those who are 100% certain that their own experiences comprise The Universal Experience. 

In the end, it doesn't matter how strong my argument may be.  There will always be some fool bent on explaining how the female gaming demographic is tiny, how women only play Farmville, and how women who don't fit into the casual gaming pigeonhole must be some singular type that is somehow less feminine, or a gamer girl with pigtails and an obsession with the color pink.  (Not that I have any beef with folks who do fit into those categories.)

I'll gladly spend time debating with folks who ask "What is the truth of the situation?"  However, "This is how it is.  It's on you to change my mind," is a non-starter for everyone but masochists.

Thank you for saying what I was trying to figure out how to edit into my post!

Sisyphean tasks are the worst.

Modifié par Silveryne, 13 avril 2011 - 05:47 .

[Milana_Saros]

Carfax wrote...

My sister saw me play plenty of games, yet she never became interested at all herself..

There will always be exceptions though I suppose.

*shrug*

I guess it's just simply a combination of different factors (Edit: In both genders I might add). I've always been a very curious person and if I wasn't bugging my brothers with questions about their computer games, I was poking dad's fish catch with a stick to see what they had eaten

And as I said, I've always enjoyed solitude, having my own little world I can relax in. If I didn't play computer games, I would probably read and draw a lot.

Modifié par Milana_Saros, 13 avril 2011 - 05:57 .

[Addai]

If a game is marketed to women, I"m probably going to hate it.  Those Wii games?  Facebook games?  No.  Just, no.    For TV, I'd rather hang myself than watch Lifetime.  Spike is much more appealing.

I like war movies and military history, so I'd play a lot of the testosterone shooters if I weren't so bad at them.  No hand-eye coordination.  The modern RPGs allow a slower pace and more story with the combat.  I"m still not much of a gamer, really.  Other than the few games I play obsessively, not a lot of them appeal to me.

[Addai]

mousestalker wrote...

In my experience, women that play computer games are almost universally intelligent, attractive and charming. They are dolphinlike in their nurturing and possess a beauty of spirit rarely matched by any other demographic segment.

Now you know.

They also have chaste but heaving breasts and a glowing nimbus!

[LyndseyCousland]

I, uh, feel sort of offended by the OP though I can't really pinpoint why...

So... I'm just going to throw out some thoughts that pop into my head.

I like ALL sorts of games. I know many women who play a variety of games and not just the 'girlie' ones. I have seen many other women online who are the same. So I don't think those statistics can be correct.

I understand that gender differences are going to happen and are sometimes even important. That's fine. All I ask is if we could step back from them for one damn minute and realise that we don't all have to blindly follow what is expected of us. A lot of men might actually like games geered towards women if they tried them; the opposite is just as true.

Agh. My brain is melting from trying to explain what I mean.

Godak wrote...

Carfax wrote...

The women on these forums obviously aren't your everyday garden variety female.

Yeah, see...such a thing doesn't exist.

Exactly.

[Carfax]

[quote]Silveryne wrote...

Eh. I agree about some of this -- a lot of women do not want to be bulky (because society dictates that a woman with masculine qualities, such as muscle, is unattractive). But a lot of us don't want to be scrawny, thin little things. To say that we want to look like models is patently wrong. Many women have issues with body image because our culture dictates to us that if we're not super skinny, we're not attractive. A lot of women will take issue with this, though -- I think if I played a game where my character had the skinniest Barbie-doll waist, I'd put it down. Immediately.[/quote]

I always wondered where the "if we're not super skinny, we're not attractive" sentiment came from.  It certainly didn't come from men I'll tell you that much.  Most men prefer voluptuous women, and not scrawny chicks..

If I had to guess, I'd say it came from the elite fashion industry, which is run mostly by gay men that impose their own personal aesthetic views on the models, making them more androgynous so their bodies look more like young boys than women.

[quote]I don't think you're giving women enough credit here. We don't mind lithe figures. We just don't want to look like ridiculous pumped figures -- what is associated with working out every time there is a gym commercial on TV. There's a lot of women who are ignorant about the effects of working out, and there's a lot of us who are perfectly aware that we will never hulk out and become ripped, unless we really, really, really tried hard at it.

For every woman who hesitates about lifting weights, there's another one who has been lifting weights because she doesn't want a lot of skin and fat hanging off her arms. Because we like the look of toned bodies, just like how a man wants to be toned. [/quote]

Yes, but if you want female characters that are genuinely strong (as in physical strength) enough to justify their feats, then how can you avoid higher levels of muscularity?

Look at it this way.  If Marcus Phoenix was depicted as being 5'8" 140lbs instead of 6'1" 285lbs (estimate), do you think it would have been accepted?

[quote]Anyway, FemShep isn't a runway model at all, and she's gotten a lot of praise for being a more realistic female heroine. FemHawke actually grates on my nerves because, for a female combatant, she's too concerned with swinging her hips when she runs. [/quote]

FemHawke looks lush   She has the perfect feminine physique from a purely aesthetic perspective, but in terms of looking capable and strong, she doesn't have it. 

Like I said earlier, suspension of disbelief.

[quote]Oh, they don't form independent of environment at all. I imagine that your girls have access to other young girls. I imagine they've watched some TV or watched you play video games. I imagine that they watch what your wife does.

All children imitate their parents to some extent. People imitate their close friends. If you want proof of this, check out how your accent and vocabulary adapts depending on who you are with, or what friends you make. Imitation is a very base psychological thing.[/quote]

I agree, but what I noticed was how early this became apparent.  I think I started really noticing this when they were around 2 years of age, which is too early for them to be subjected to environmental influence to the degree at which you're saying. 

[quote]Eh. If you want to look for all the evidence in the world to decide that boys are more so-and-so than girls, be my guest. However, I imagine you know that all of these are extremely hotly debated issues, which is why I'm not really going to touch this. There's lots of studies going both ways for these things, and a lot of it comes down to the researchers and their own biases.[/quote]

Like you said, this is a hotly debated issue with great potential to erupt into vigorous debate, so I won't be going into much depth on it either..

I will say this however.  Civilizations and Societies the World over basically evolved along similar paths, regardless of location and time.  By paths, I'm referring to gender roles.  Men had their tasks and roles, and so did women.

If environment was the true determining factor and not biology, then I believe there would have been a lot more diversity in gender roles.

[quote]And there's a section in one of those articles that talks about boys getting flack for playing with barbie dolls. It does happen. It is a concern. It affects development. And it happens with women, too -- did you hear about the little girl who got teased for bringing a Star Wars water bottle to school, because "Star Wars is for boys"? Here's that article.

http://articles.cnn....atize-kids-geek

And here's an article about boys defying their gender norms. Except now the kid isn't getting flack from his peers, he's getting pressure from adults.

http://well.blogs.ny...-for-halloween/

The above article is a fascinating read, although it might not seem connected to the topic at first. You'll note that a psychologist accused the mother of "outing" her son? Just because you have a psych degree doesn't mean you don't have biases or preferences either... We still think that there is something horribly wrong if a boy decides to do something feminine. And we are encouraged to be ashamed of them when they do that.[/quote]

I agree that environmental conditioning plays a big role.  Only a fool would deny that.

However, the question is whether environment trumps biology or vice versa..   Thats the question thats intensely being debated.

[quote]I would also like to say that there's also a lot of studies that say that girls are "bad at math". That have been proved to be patently untrue. It has turned out that many girls are simply "bad at math" because it ends up being what is expected of them socially. Nobody might have ever told them that they're horrible at math outright, but they have an innate psychological understanding that they are supposed to be bad at math.

http://abcnews.go.co...tory?id=9658944[/quote]

Multiple studies have shown that the perception of women being bad at math is incorrect.  Men generally speaking seem to have a slight edge, but thats not where the perception came from I think.

Where it came from I think, is that the upper echelon of Mathematecians is dominated almost completely by men..  The greater your mathematical ability, the greater the chance that you're male and not female.

Male intelligence seems to be based on extremes.  Both the smartest and most idiotic people often tend to be men.

[quote]In my very first reply, I stated several times that all women are different. I stand by that now. You are going to find women who like ME and DA and action/adventure games. You are going to find women who prefer the Sims. You are also going to find men who have no interest in gaming, or like to play more casual or social games (I know guys that play only Mario Kart and Guitar Hero). All people are different, and to shove people into a box because of their gender would be wrong.[/quote]

Yes, we all know that everyone is different.  But, one cannot deny that there are TRENDS in the behaviour of men and women that are real and verifiable.

If there wasn't, developers wouldn't be trying to appeal to "female gamers" by creating certain types of games..

[quote]I know a lot of women that are into "violent" video games (myself included). I know some women that are absolutely horrified by violence. Are they horrified by violence because they're women? No, they're horrified by violence because they are simply different people with different preferences. I imagine that your wife has a unique background that had encouraged her social development. I imagine she is genetically different from myself and all the other women that I know personally. She doesn't speak for all women everywhere -- just like how I don't. And you are different from other men![/quote]

Yes I agree with this, and I'm not trying to place everyone into a simple box because I know there will always be exceptions.

I'm talking about trends and patterns in the greater population..

[quote]Brief aside and rhetorical question: My ex and I have considered joining the military (which I actually fully intend on doing after I graduate from college). He is absolutely terrified of the prospect of getting hurt or dying. Neither prospect bothers me that much. We both play video games. Am I more "masculine" than he is because he is scared of being hurt, even though I am a woman? Is he more "feminine" than I am because he doesn't want to be hurt, even though he is a man? No, we just have very, very, very different outlooks on life. Because we are very, very, very different people.[/quote]

No, but like I've said repeatedly, I'm not talking about individuals.  I'm talking about the greater populace as a whole.  I could retort to your paragraph by stating that the vast majority of the Armed Forces is comprised of men, and always has been since the dawn of Time to prove my point that there are universal behaviour patterns in human beings.

So in other words, the greater TRENDS are what interest me, because developers don't base their marketing and developing on individuals.....at least not if they want to stay in business.

[quote]I really can't emphasize enough that we don't play video games because we're horrible genetic mutants closer to men than we are our own gender, but because the individual variables -- perhaps biological, but social and historical play a MASSIVE role -- that define our character and personality traits have placed us there. We are people, just like you, with all the same social, physical, and mental concerns you have. Please don't place us into a box because we've got an X and you've got a Y.[/quote]

You mean you really don't have three eyes?  

[naughty99]

Silveryne wrote...

 If Bioware really wanted to pull in more women, they could help break some norms by featuring both FemHawke and BroHawke on DA2's box art, or FemShep and ManShep on Mass Effect's. The presence of a man as a central character/focal point (instead of both a man and a woman as central characters) on box art signals who the game is primarily aimed at. 

You have a very insightful perspective on this.

In my case I generally choose female characters when a choice is offered. Perhaps I simply find female characters more appealing visually in cutscenes and 3rd person view. If FemHawke and FemShep were utilized more often in the artwork and advertising, in my case I would be more inclined to purchase the game. (Although I'm already a diehard fan of these series, so maybe I'm not exactly the target of these ads.)

I've noticed that I have been selecting primarily female characters in RPGs since I picked up gaming again about two or three years ago (long hiatus since my NES days). However, when I played pen and paper RPGs many years ago, I almost always rolled male characters. I would also consider myself a fan of films with female leads in general, particularly genre films, such as horror, thriller, suspense, sci-fi and action. Although there are a lots of horror and thriller titles with female leads and a few recent action/sci-fi films, I honestly can't think of any recent novels I've read with female leads. Literary protagonists seem to be overwhelmingly male.

In my day job in the film industry, we tend to avoid film projects with female leads, especially girl protagonists. I've been told that they usually have no audience, that men and women can identify with a male protagonists, but men can't identify with a female protagonist, especially a young child.

Modifié par naughty99, 13 avril 2011 - 07:17 .

[Carfax]

ciaweth wrote...

Because other folks are pelting this thread with their own experiences and good math, and it doesn't seem to be taking.  I deal with confirmation bias on this very issue so often (I work in the game industry, in addition to being a woman--not a frigging "girl gamer"--who enjoys games) that it gets tiresome to argue with those who are 100% certain that their own experiences comprise The Universal Experience.

It's been said repeatedly in this thread that exceptions can always be found.......plenty of them.

But it seems to me that many of the women in this thread want to deny the evidence that states that the bulk of the female gaming demographic aren't interested in playing games like Mass Effect and Dragon Age..

In the end, it doesn't matter how strong my argument may be.  There will always be some fool bent on explaining how the female gaming demographic is tiny, how women only play Farmville, and how women who don't fit into the casual gaming pigeonhole must be some singular type that is somehow less feminine, or a gamer girl with pigtails and an obsession with the color pink.  (Not that I have any beef with folks who do fit into those categories.)

So you're saying the putative assumptions about female gamers are incorrect?  And by putative assumptions, I mean:

1)  That most female gamers tend to be casual and not serious

2)  That the women who do play games like Mass Effect and Dragon Age are a small minority and not representative of the greater female gaming demographic.

I'll gladly spend time debating with folks who ask "What is the truth of the situation?"  However, "This is how it is.  It's on you to change my mind," is a non-starter for everyone but masochists

OK,  I'll ask nicely.  Whats the truth of the situation? 

[fighterchick]

Addai67 wrote...

If a game is marketed to women, I"m probably going to hate it.  Those Wii games?  Facebook games?  No.  Just, no.    For TV, I'd rather hang myself than watch Lifetime.  Spike is much more appealing.

I like war movies and military history, so I'd play a lot of the testosterone shooters if I weren't so bad at them.  No hand-eye coordination.  The modern RPGs allow a slower pace and more story with the combat.  I"m still not much of a gamer, really.  Other than the few games I play obsessively, not a lot of them appeal to me.

This pretty much describes me as well, minus the aversion to shooters and the not much of a gamer.  I've always gravitated towards the more violent games where you get to either shoot people or hack them up.  :happy:  Most games that are "designed" or targer women, I'm probably not going to be interested in.  I've tried a few facebook games to see what the big deal is (since I live with a lot of other girls and most of them do spend their time playing those games) and usually end up scratching my head wondering how it's remotely entertaining.  Also, most of my favorite games don't have the option to play female players, it's a locked in male protagonist.  While the option to choose is nice, it's not going to turn me off to an awesome game.  

[Pacifien]

What exactly is your point, Carfax? To know what sort of women plays games like Mass Effect and Dragon Age or to let them know they're a minority?

[Dominus]

I would hope the former, but the latter is certainly a possibility. Perhaps he's just curious about the distinct space between tastes for video games from the women he might find on here, and the very stereotypical "women only" games like Cooking mama and shopping at the mall games. That's only speculation, but it's a somewhat educated guess.

[Silveryne]

I'm not going to bother quoting and editing because my previous reply was far too long, so I'm just going to address this as quickly and concisely as I can.

You assertions about the fashion industry are incorrect. It does, believe it or not, come from men. You say you like curvy women? We try to make you happy by getting surgery that reallocates our body fat to fit the ideal "hour glass" shape. Today, a woman who is skinny (skinny and scrawny does not refer to T&A, but rather, to a lack of muscle and fat around the waist, most importantly) is considered to be of a higher socio-economic class than women who are overweight or obese. They can afford gym memberships and fancy organic food, after all. If you observe older art, you'll note that this wasn't always the case -- observe odalisques, or even the Venus of Wilendorf.

I guess I should also discount the men I know or have dated who are uncomfortable with their women being slightly overweight, obese, or athletic. Because this is not how you believe them to be.

Your belief that men or women need a lot of muscle mass in order to perform physical feats is incorrect. Athleticism, the ability to run or carry a heavy weight, does not translate into being "ripped". I know several military men who weigh in at less than 200 lbs. They are perfectly capable of doing their duty.

I concur that FemHawke is pretty, but she doesn't look like much of a fighter. I could believe her as a rogue or a mage (more the latter), but she doesn't pass as a warrior. She exists in a fantasy world, though, so maybe weapons and armor there are a little lighter than they would be here. A world that has magic is sure to have different rules than a world that doesn't.

You're ignoring a lot of historical and mythological matriarchies when you state that there's a precedent in the world for men being dominant, but whatever, I'll let that slide. If you want proof that women are capable there is plenty of that online. Celtic legal codes didn't screw over women, I know that, so whatever. I'm sure someone with a better background in history than me can come in and nail you on that.

Multiple studies have shown that the perception of women being bad at math is incorrect. Men generally speaking seem to have a slight edge, but thats not where the perception came from I think.

Where it came from I think, is that the upper echelon of Mathematecians is dominated almost completely by men.. The greater your mathematical ability, the greater the chance that you're male and not female.

Examine that quote very carefully and you will see a contradiction in logic.

Think about this. It is your attitude and perspective that we are strange or unusual for playing video games that discourages women from enjoying or even picking up video games in the first place. It is your insistence that there are "TRENDS" that suggests that there is a behavior that deviates out the norm or is wrong and incorrect. It is you calling us "exceptions" that implies that there is some sort of rule that we are breaking.

Ah yes. "Trends". We have dismissed this claim.

Your attitude, quite simply, is part of the problem and reason why women allegedly do not game, and not the solution. You have a belief and you are sticking to it. That's quite admirable. However, your belief is not universal truth. To call us exceptions to a rule is to belittle our gender and offend us personally. You will note that many women have chimed in with their annoyance with your perceptions. But you can dismiss those that chime in by declaring that we are the exception, not the rule -- somehow making us special.

Humans are individuals, unique to themselves. Accept this, embrace it, love your sister humans who game and accept them with open arms, and move on. Do not treat us like we are alien or strange. We do not appreciate it. Nobody likes to be told they are wrong, strange, awkward. I cannot state this enough: it is this kind of attitude that is the problem in the first place.

[Pacifien]

DominusVita wrote...
I would hope the former, but the latter is certainly a possibility. Perhaps he's just curious about the distinct space between tastes for video games from the women he might find on here, and the very stereotypical "women only" games like Cooking mama and shopping at the mall games. That's only speculation, but it's a somewhat educated guess.

To answer the former is easy. They're geeks. They're a minority to start with.

I'm somehow reminded of this Penny Arcade comic, which has nothing to do with the women who play BioWare games versus the mainstream interpretation of a girl gamer. Instead, it has more to do with the fact that geeks have to contend with the fact that their chosen hobby is mainstreamed. The guy who really liked playing Dragon Age is not going to be similar to the guy who liked Medal of Honor. Or maybe he is, I don't know.

[Carfax]

Pacifien wrote...

What exactly is your point, Carfax? To know what sort of women plays games like Mass Effect and Dragon Age or to let them know they're a minority?

You must be new to these forums.  I've been posting on Bioware forums for perhaps a decade, and one arguement that recurringly surfaces is what percentage of Bioware's consumers are women..

This is simply another debate, on top of a long list of debates about the very same subject.

Every time a new game comes out ie Mass Effect 2 or Dragon Age 2, the forum is bombarded with requests from female gamers to show the female PC in advertisements and trailers.

And yet, Bioware for the most part fails to do so, and sticks to using their iconic version which is always male.

The question is why?  I've always suspected an answer, and this thread is about discussing whether that answer is correct or not.

[Pacifien]

Carfax wrote...
And yet, Bioware for the most part fails to do so, and sticks to using their iconic version which is always male.

The question is why?  I've always suspected an answer, and this thread is about discussing whether that answer is correct or not.

Really, I didn't get that sense that you were looking for an answer to the strategy behind BioWare's marketing based on your original post.

Because they're chicken**** would be my answer. It's not very eloquently put and it doesn't have a lot of research behind the statement, but I'd guess that people looking to sell high don't like to market outside their comfort zone until someone else does it successfully first. Which means someone has to take a risk.

[Dominus]

Carfax wrote...

Pacifien wrote...

What exactly is your point, Carfax? To know what sort of women plays games like Mass Effect and Dragon Age or to let them know they're a minority?

You must be new to these forums.  

LMAO that just made my day...



Back on topic, I never got that sense either, but we may as well discuss it now. I think a lot of that is also in the comfort zone. By far the easiest way to market Mass Effect is, unfortunately, the straight male space commander fightin the bad guys and saving the day. That's just how it is for that particular franchise I suppose. Is it the right answer? Well, it's certainly not exactly the answer for everyone, but I don't know how to categorize the "right" answer either.

In short, who knows?

Modifié par DominusVita, 13 avril 2011 - 07:16 .

[FlintlockJazz]

Damn women playing games, chuck 'em out and get them back washing the dishes is what I say! Gaming is for real men, women belong in the kitchen! They're to blame for the sissification of gaming, over-abundance of stereotypes used in gaming (they fragile little minds can't cope with anything more complex), and for me not having my goddam tea!

Having said that, I'm getting the hell out of here!

*Initiates emergency teleport*

[LiquidGrape]

Pacifien wrote...

Carfax wrote...
And yet, Bioware for the most part fails to do so, and sticks to using their iconic version which is always male.

The question is why?  I've always suspected an answer, and this thread is about discussing whether that answer is correct or not.

Really, I didn't get that sense that you were looking for an answer to the strategy behind BioWare's marketing based on your original post.

Because they're chicken**** would be my answer. It's not very eloquently put and it doesn't have a lot of research behind the statement, but I'd guess that people looking to sell high don't like to market outside their comfort zone until someone else does it successfully first. Which means someone has to take a risk.

The only reason Sheploo and MaleHawke are the allegedly "iconic" versions is because marketing makes them so. It's a self-affirming circular notion.

As late as August last year, EEDAR (Electronic Entertainment Design and Research, world's largest research institution in the field of video games) published a few reliably contextual statistics on the subject of gender disparity in 7th generation video games, and how the sex of the game's protagonist is apparently a non-factor when it comes to critical acclaim, and by extension, financial revenue.

Give it a read. I think it's rather interesting.

So I have to go with Paci's assessment. It's probably a mix of blatant cowardice and a misconception of what is required to meet that desired sales quota.

Modifié par LiquidGrape, 13 avril 2011 - 07:42 .

[CroGamer002]

Woman's playing video games?

Bah! They belong in the kitch*banhammer*