141 réponses à ce sujet

[ciaweth]

Carfax wrote...

ciaweth wrote...

Because other folks are pelting this thread with their own experiences and good math, and it doesn't seem to be taking.  I deal with confirmation bias on this very issue so often (I work in the game industry, in addition to being a woman--not a frigging "girl gamer"--who enjoys games) that it gets tiresome to argue with those who are 100% certain that their own experiences comprise The Universal Experience.

It's been said repeatedly in this thread that exceptions can always be found.......plenty of them.

You're asserting that anything that doesn't fit your preconceptions must be an exception.  Where is your hard evidence of that?  Please link me to it so that I can read it!

But it seems to me that many of the women in this thread want to deny the evidence that states that the bulk of the female gaming demographic aren't interested in playing games like Mass Effect and Dragon Age..

Please link me to the data--non-anecdotal, please; see my point about confirmation bias--that show definitively that the "bulk" of the "female gaming demographic" are not even interested in playing games like Mass Effect and Dragon age.  Again, I would like to see it and read it for myself.

In the end, it doesn't matter how strong my argument may be.  There will always be some fool bent on explaining how the female gaming demographic is tiny, how women only play Farmville, and how women who don't fit into the casual gaming pigeonhole must be some singular type that is somehow less feminine, or a gamer girl with pigtails and an obsession with the color pink.  (Not that I have any beef with folks who do fit into those categories.)

So you're saying the putative assumptions about female gamers are incorrect?  And by putative assumptions, I mean:

1)  That most female gamers tend to be casual and not serious

"Not serious"?  Really?  You're sabotaging your own argument there.  I think the word you want is "hardcore."  Mass Effect and Dragon Age are not viewed as hardcore gaming by those who identify as hardcore.  There is absolutely evidence that a crapton of women start out playing casual games these days.  Do they all play casual games exclusively?  Hardly.  Are the women who play hardcore or, I guess "midcore", games anomalies?  Haha, no.  There exists a vast array of fansites, forums, and communities for all kinds of gamers, and women participate on all of them.  If you don't see any, it might be because of the Fat, Ugly, or ****ty effect.  (Great website, btw.  Check it out.)

2)  That the women who do play games like Mass Effect and Dragon Age are a small minority and not representative of the greater female gaming demographic.

Again, please provide hard data on this, and on why you consider the "female gaming demographic" to be some kind of monolith with the occasional exception.

I'll gladly spend time debating with folks who ask "What is the truth of the situation?"  However, "This is how it is.  It's on you to change my mind," is a non-starter for everyone but masochists

OK,  I'll ask nicely.  Whats the truth of the situation? 

Given your posts below, I'm inclined to consider your question insincere.  You're humoring me. 

The truth is that the subject of women in gaming is vastly more complex than you make it out to be.  Go read up.

[Ashira Shepard]

"Garden variety female" is an interesting phrase. In any case...

I'm a young female writer and I play everything from Sims to Call of Duty, Dragon Age to Worms, Starcraft to Dead Space. When I see the so-called "girl" games, I think of little girls. Really young girls who willingly pick the pretty doll in the frilly pink dress instead of the dinosaurs and their hunters with guns and daggers that I went for as a child.

And as far as I'm concerned, I don't consider them "girl gamers."Or even just "gamers." They like the childish games with puppies and learning how to cook, that's fine. Whilst I might find the puppies cute, you wouldn't catch me playing anything like that.

Sims? Closet romantic.
CoD? Homicidal fury.
Starcraft? Calming.
Dead Space? Sh*ts and giggles.
Worms? How can you not like worms...?

Point is, I know there are some girls who wouldn't play these games, and plenty who would. We have tastes, and we're varied, just like you. How shocking.

Modifié par AshiraShepard, 13 avril 2011 - 08:20 .

[jellobell]

Silveryne wrote...

Ah yes. "Trends". We have dismissed this claim.

Your attitude, quite simply, is part of the problem and reason why women allegedly do not game, and not the solution. You have a belief and you are sticking to it. That's quite admirable. However, your belief is not universal truth. To call us exceptions to a rule is to belittle our gender and offend us personally. You will note that many women have chimed in with their annoyance with your perceptions. But you can dismiss those that chime in by declaring that we are the exception, not the rule -- somehow making us special.

Thank you, I couldn't have said it any better myself. I'm also a female who plays video games. What kinds? All kinds, mostly RPGs. After the reading the OP (and subsequent posts) I also felt rather offended, but I couldn't really express why until I read Silveryne's post. All that talk about nature vs. nurture seems calculated to show just how unnatural Carfax believes the kind of women who play these games must be. That may not have been his intention but, according to many of the other posts, it's not just me who sees it. I guess it's just that I don't particularly feel like I should have to justify my interests, or give some kind of roadmap of my childhood to show why I'm not playing Farmville like the greater female population. There is no genetic reason why women are stereotyped as liking certain things, and men others. It's purely cultural, and I find the idea that it's some kind of deeply ingrained natural process that makes young girls more partial to pink completely hilarious.

The big thing that women do seem to have in common, based on this thread's responses, is the desire to see more female protagonists, or at least the option to choose your MC's gender. And this is where advertising comes in. By virtue of being on these forums at all, I'm going to assume that we're all fans of Bioware's games. We know that Bioware always allows the choice between a male and female PC. However, not everybody knows this. When Mass Effect first came out, I had no idea that you could play a Femshep, because all the promotional materials showed was the same male PC. I'm sure I'm not the only one either. There are more women on the Bioware forums than on probably any other "hardcore" gaming forum that I've ever participated in, and I'm willing to bet that it's because Bioware actually designs games with women in mind. Something as simple as includng the option to choose your gender is a big draw. Other than that, they value the things that anybody else values: a good story, well-written characters, engaging combat, etc. Having Femshep or Femhawke in the ads or on the box isn't just a token gesture, it could actually get more women interested in Bioware games.

[mousestalker]

Here's a "girl gamer" for you. She's a little young, but she'll likely be fragging newbs any day now.

[Ashira Shepard]

mousestalker wrote...

Here's a "girl gamer" for you. She's a little young, but she'll likely be fragging newbs any day now.

I love you for posting that.

[Beocat]

Silveryne wrote...

Your belief that men or women need a lot of muscle mass in order to perform physical feats is incorrect. Athleticism, the ability to run or carry a heavy weight, does not translate into being "ripped". I know several military men who weigh in at less than 200 lbs. They are perfectly capable of doing their duty.

I'm just going to make the guess that the OP's never been to Crossfit before!    Not many in crossfit will be ripped, but they'll all be lifting more weight and running further than everyone else, the girls included.

[CroGamer002]

mousestalker wrote...

Here's a "girl gamer" for you. She's a little young, but she'll likely be fragging newbs any day now.

[MrDizazta]

mousestalker wrote...

Here's a "girl gamer" for you. She's a little young, but she'll likely be fragging newbs any day now.

She knows where her loyalities lie.

[elenilote]

What kind of a female? Well, judging from this thread - every possible kind. And I'm surprised that it has not occurred to OP that any statistics based on the gender of the in-game character are inherently false. You assume that people overwhelmingly play characters representing their own gender; this is so far off the mark you haven't even seen the target. In all my playthroughs of DAO and DA2 I play as a male character. I play a MaleShep in ME - and in numerous other games besides, my chosen character is male.

[Carfax]

Silveryne wrote...

You assertions about the fashion industry are incorrect. It does, believe it or not, come from men.

I never said it didn't.  I said it came from gay mens' influence over the fashion industry...  So unless gay men aren't men, then I wasn't wrong was I? 
 

You say you like curvy women? We try to make you happy by getting surgery that reallocates our body fat to fit the ideal "hour glass" shape.

Well I can't speak for every man, but if my wife told me she was getting any kind of plastic surgery done, I'd be horrified  

Today, a woman who is skinny (skinny and scrawny does not refer to T&A, but rather, to a lack of muscle and fat around the waist, most importantly) is considered to be of a higher socio-economic class than women who are overweight or obese. They can afford gym memberships and fancy organic food, after all. If you observe older art, you'll note that this wasn't always the case -- observe odalisques, or even the Venus of Wilendorf.

So basically it's skinny vs overweight or obese?  It's a bit more complicated than that..  Being overweight or obese is often viewed as unhealthy, and a sign of laziness for valid reasons..  So I can understand why men wouldn't want to date an overweight or obese woman.

The times have changed however.  Food can be had in abundance (at least in developed countries), and instead of people being underfed, we now have the exact opposite; and it's just as dangerous as the former.

And to me, skinny means you don't have much flesh on your bones (Callista Flockhart).  A woman thats 5'9" that weighs 120lbs is skinny in my opinion.  My wife is 5'11" and weighs over 160lbs, so she doesn't qualify as skinny...at least not to me.

http://webcenters.ne...omen/curvywomen

Your belief that men or women need a lot of muscle mass in order to perform physical feats is incorrect.

Well it depends highly on the physical feat wouldn't you say?  For example, lifting a heavy weight requires a lot of strength, and since muscle mass and physical strength have a direct (almost proportional) correlation, then it doesn't mean I was incorrect.
 

Athleticism, the ability to run or carry a heavy weight, does not translate into being "ripped". I know several military men who weigh in at less than 200 lbs. They are perfectly capable of doing their duty.

I define athleticism as your overall physical capabilities, ie strength, endurance and speed.  For example, power lifters are extremely strong, but you probably won't be seeing one in a track meet, so their athletic ability is one dimensional only. 

You're ignoring a lot of historical and mythological matriarchies when you state that there's a precedent in the world for men being dominant, but whatever, I'll let that slide. If you want proof that women are capable there is plenty of that online. Celtic legal codes didn't screw over women, I know that, so whatever. I'm sure someone with a better background in history than me can come in and nail you on that.

I researched this myself once long ago..  It seems that although there are mythological references to matriarchical Societies, there aren't any historical ones.....or if there was, I couldn't find any such reference.

Examine that quote very carefully and you will see a contradiction in logic.

It could be construed that way I agree, but does that mean I was incorrect?  The fact remains, that the upper echelon of Mathematicians is comprised almost completely of men.  This doesn't necessarily mean that men in general have an advantage over women in Mathematics however. 

The upper echelon of Mathematicians is pretty exclusive, and only a very small percentage of people have that ability.  And I think this has more to do with male intelligence being so extreme at opposite ends, than simply men being better at math than women.

Think about this. It is your attitude and perspective that we are strange or unusual for playing video games that discourages women from enjoying or even picking up video games in the first place. It is your insistence that there are "TRENDS" that suggests that there is a behavior that deviates out the norm or is wrong and incorrect. It is you calling us "exceptions" that implies that there is some sort of rule that we are breaking.

Playing video games isn't unsual for women.  It's the TYPE of video games that raises eyebrows, and the only reason why it does, is because it's comparatively rare to see a woman playing FPS and other violent games..

I never said or claimed the women that do these things are breaking any rules or any such thing..  I've personally always tried very hard to get my wife to be interested in the kind of games that I play, but I've never been successful at it.

Your attitude, quite simply, is part of the problem and reason why women allegedly do not game, and not the solution. You have a belief and you are sticking to it. That's quite admirable. However, your belief is not universal truth. To call us exceptions to a rule is to belittle our gender and offend us personally. You will note that many women have chimed in with their annoyance with your perceptions. But you can dismiss those that chime in by declaring that we are the exception, not the rule -- somehow making us special.

I think you're making this out to be more than it really is.  I'm not on some Crusade to dissuade females from playing these kinds of games, or any other game.  I just wanted to know why some women play these kinds of games (and not others), and how they got started in it.....  Why?  Because it's unusual from what I've seen and read.

Humans are individuals, unique to themselves. Accept this, embrace it, love your sister humans who game and accept them with open arms, and move on. Do not treat us like we are alien or strange. We do not appreciate it. Nobody likes to be told they are wrong, strange, awkward. I cannot state this enough: it is this kind of attitude that is the problem in the first place.

I understand that individualism is a strong component of human nature, but so is conformity as well.

And please, don't be so sensitive.  We are just having a debate, thats all.  You're going to have differing opinions in any debate aren't you?

Modifié par Carfax, 13 avril 2011 - 08:57 .

[Deztyn]

I always wonder where people get their information about what women like to play because it seems very different from my own experiences. Most of the women I know play Call of Duty, God of War, Devil May Cry, the Final Fantasy Series and/or WoW, a few more casual types play facebook games. Only the little girls I know play Nintendogs, Cooking Mama and such and most of them also play things like Pokemon and Mario which aren't slanted towards females.

(For what it's worth if someone had given me a game like Fashion World when I was twelve my response would have been to kill it with fire. Then I would have popped Mortal Kombat into my Sega or Resident Evil into my Playstation and played one of those instead.)

Modifié par Deztyn, 13 avril 2011 - 08:48 .

[Maria Caliban]

Carfax wrote...

So with that said, just what kind of women play games like Mass Effect and Dragon Age?

I'm actually a dude. I pretend to be a lesbian to trick men into thinking they can be my first and/or that my bisexual girlfriend would be interested in having them join in.

[Dominus]

I'm actually a dude. I pretend to be a lesbian to trick men into thinking they can be my first and/or that my bisexual girlfriend would be interested in having them join in.

I knew it. I freaking knew it. 20 Bucks more for me...

[Carfax]

Pacifien wrote...

Really, I didn't get that sense that you were looking for an answer to the strategy behind BioWare's marketing based on your original post.

I have an abrasive posting style so perhaps that threw you off..  I'm a nice guy in real life, but on the net I can be an ass...

Because they're chicken**** would be my answer. It's not very eloquently put and it doesn't have a lot of research behind the statement, but I'd guess that people looking to sell high don't like to market outside their comfort zone until someone else does it successfully first. Which means someone has to take a risk.

Actually I'd agree with this.  For the longest time, I thought Bioware was amongst the most successful developers when it came to pulling in female gamers.  But, I suppose appearances can be deceiving.

Bioware undoubtedly conducts their internal statistics to guide their marketing and development strategies, so I was surprised at their constant failure to market any of their big name games with a visible female PC..

[Godak]

Maria Caliban wrote...

I'm actually a dude. I pretend to be a lesbian to trick men into thinking they can be my first and/or that my bisexual girlfriend would be interested in having them join in.

I can vouche for him. He totally fooled me!

Hahahaha.

I am irreparably scarred for life.

[LadyJaneGrey]

"What kind of women play these games"? Those who enjoy them - just like the men.

[Aggie Punbot]

LadyJaneGrey wrote...

"What kind of women play these games"? Those who enjoy them - just like the men.

Beat me to it.

[Pacifien]

Carfax wrote...
I think you're making this out to be more than it really is.  I'm not on some Crusade to dissuade females from playing these kinds of games, or any other game.  I just wanted to know why some women play these kinds of games (and not others), and how they got started in it.....  Why?  Because it's unusual from what I've seen and read.

Well, ****, I thought this was a discussion about whether your answer to BioWare's failure to alter its marketing strategy to appeal to the female gamer was correct or not, but turns out you really do want to know what sort of women play BioWare games. I guess you don't know any in real life. That's fine, not many people, male or female, knew what I was talking about when d20 rules came up in conversation.

[Eradyn]

LadyJaneGrey wrote...

"What kind of women play these games"? Those who enjoy them - just like the men.

Best and most accurate answer. +1 internet for you. Moving along now...

[Carfax]

ciaweth wrote...

Please link me to the data--non-anecdotal, please; see my point about confirmation bias--that show definitively that the "bulk" of the "female gaming demographic" are not even interested in playing games like Mass Effect and Dragon age.  Again, I would like to see it and read it for myself.

The bulk of female gamers are undisputably of the casual persuasion, hence games like Mass Effect and Dragon Age (which aren't casual) would not be appealing to most female gamers.  Casual games are defined as games that practically anyone can play with little skill and or no experience required.  Serious games are defined as games that require some basic skill or experience to play properly, and are sometimes competitive (online multiplayer).  The vast majority of gamers that play games like Mass Effect , CoD and Dragon Age (both male and female) already have previous experience playing games like these over the years..

http://ps3.ign.com/a...0/780446p1.html

From the link above:

 Generally speaking, the more 'hardcore' the gamer, the more likely he is to be male, and conversely, the casual gamer will tend to skew female," says eMarketer Senior Analyst Paul Verna.

"Not serious"?  Really?  You're sabotaging your own argument there.  I think the word you want is "hardcore."  Mass Effect and Dragon Age are not viewed as hardcore gaming by those who identify as hardcore.  There is absolutely evidence that a crapton of women start out playing casual games these days.  Do they all play casual games exclusively?  Hardly.  Are the women who play hardcore or, I guess "midcore", games anomalies?  Haha, no.  There exists a vast array of fansites, forums, and communities for all kinds of gamers, and women participate on all of them.  If you don't see any, it might be because of the Fat, Ugly, or ****ty effect.  (Great website, btw.  Check it out.)

Well if you think I've been saying that women don't (or shouldn't) play serious (or hardcore games as you put it), then you're mistaken.  I know these women exist, as these forums demonstrate.

My questions have mostly been referring to how many female gamers play these types of games (masculine oriented games like CoD, Crysis, Mass Effect etc), versus those that play casual games only..

And this might sound like I'm arguing semantics, but games themselves aren't classified as hardcore.  Hardcore gaming typically refers to the amount of time and dedication that a gamer has for gaming, not what type of game he or she is playing. 

I'm not a hardcore gamer, as I only spend about 5 or 6 hours a week playing games..   

Again, please provide hard data on this, and on why you consider the "female gaming demographic" to be some kind of monolith with the occasional exception.

See the link above.  Also, keep in mind that many of these games feature masculine oriented themes and characters, and are marketed as such.  If female gamers were a significant percentage of the consumer base, then they would be marketed to.  But we find that they aren't.  Even developers like Bioware don't readily market towards female gamers, so one can assume that their consumer base is obviously mostly male.

Unless you're going to accuse developers of being sexist in disregarding women completely just because they're women and not because they are a small percentage of the consumer base.

Given your posts below, I'm inclined to consider your question insincere.  You're humoring me. 

The truth is that the subject of women in gaming is vastly more complex than you make it out to be.  Go read up.

Well seeing as you are an expert on these matters, I'll glady read and contemplate what you have to say

[Carfax]

rynluna wrote...

This again?  If you can't buy Lady Hawke's frame not being able to support heavy swords then how do you buy into anything in the DA universe?

Suspension of disbelief isn't a black and white issue you know.  There are many degrees...

Plus, I already stated why they made FemHawke look the way she did..  It has to do with aesthetic concerns.

Neither male or female gamers would want to see a muscular FemHawke I'm certain..

[LadyJaneGrey]

Eradyn wrote...

LadyJaneGrey wrote...

"What kind of women play these games"? Those who enjoy them - just like the men.

Best and most accurate answer. +1 internet for you. Moving along now...

If I save up the points, can I eventually trade them in for a cookie?

[jellobell]

Carfax wrote...

Neither male or female gamers would want to see a muscular FemHawke I'm certain..

*raises hand* I would. I want my warrior Femhawke to look like she's a warrior, like my Femshep looks like she's a soldier. 

[Chaos-fusion]

jellobell wrote...

Carfax wrote...

Neither male or female gamers would want to see a muscular FemHawke I'm certain..

*raises hand* I would. I want my warrior Femhawke to look like she's a warrior, like my Femshep looks like she's a soldier. 

Me too.