196 réponses à ce sujet

[p95h]

After the umpteenth playthrough, I've finally decided I had enough of the "Tranquil Solution".

In DAO, Tranquil had their connection to the fade cut, by the severing of emotions upon which demons are attracted and feast.

In DA2, somehow this makes Tranquil susceptible to Templar control. WTF?!?!? The tranquil in DAO still were able to reason logically (Owain comes to mind), but in DA2, Karl betrays Anders to the Templars (which I can see only if the templars reasoned with Karl logically in that Anders is a psychopathic Abomination of Vengeance.)

Nonetheless, the tranquil seem to be retconned to be susceptible to mind control by Templars in the "New Order", when Karl says he'd rather die than be tranquil (After experiencing being tranquil.) The Tranquil in DAO, on the other hand, liken the experience to being plunged into an ice cold bath. They have much more clarity of thought, except they are emotionless. (Guess this makes them much more like Vulcans of Star Trek).

Tranquil are not mind control susceptible. If anything, they are less so because they have the clarity of thought that is unclouded by emotional stresses.

This is one aspect of DA2 with which I am deeply perturbed.

[Foolsfolly]

In DA2, somehow this makes Tranquil susceptible to Templar control. WTF?!?!? The tranquil in DAO still were able to reason logically (Owain comes to mind), but in DA2, Karl betrays Anders to the Templars (which I can see only if the templars reasoned with Karl logically in that Anders is a psychopathic Abomination of Vengeance.)

You kinda shot your example in the foot there. It is logical to stop an Abomination bent on bringing down the Circles.

I didn't see anything resembling a retcon with the Tranquil. I don't think they're brain washed into helping the Templars or anything, it's just that's the job they'd rather do. We saw that in Origins with Owain staying at his workplace surrounded by Abominations and rampaging mages instead of looking for help. He'd rather be there. I imagine the tranquil we meet in DA2 would just rather be at the Circle doing their job.

Like they just don't have the drive to do anything else, but sitting around doing nothing isn't preferable either.

[p95h]

The trouble with my example is it's one of ex-post facto knowledge. We only find out Anders is a psychopathic abomination AFTER he finds out Karl is tranquil. In other words, my example was only to show the only possible explainaton which might have seemed logical to make things work coherently for me.

[Foolsfolly]

But Karl knew it even before the player did.

[p95h]

Also Owain says in DAO, during that mage fight in the tower, "I'd prefer not to die." Makes me think that living as a tranquil isn't as bad as the writers are making it out to be in DA2.

[Merced652]

i noticed this too, like when karl says "why are you looking at me like that?" I was like wait so being tranquil gives you amnesia or some ****? Was really retarded. His connection to the fade faded and hes like wait wut?

[TobiTobsen]

Foolsfolly wrote...

But Karl knew it even before the player did.

Exactly. His logical conclusion was that Anders would be better off in the circle, or as a tranquil too, before he destroyed himself or others. Look at the ending... wasn't that unreasonable, hm?

[stobie]

Maybe they tranquilize more of the brain! What bothered me in Origins was the scene after (I think)  the Fade - where Tranquil are being turned into abominations. (If you're not fast enough, I think they all turn) That scene still leaves me with a 'huh?"

I'd think it most plausible if the Kirkwall templars did a more aggressive lobotomy - but yup, I noticed the change.

Modifié par stobie, 13 avril 2011 - 06:09 .

[p95h]

Bingo! Merced652 hit the problem on the head as well. Ya, it makes no sense from DAO to DA2, for Tranquility to be like a mind wipe. That's the retcon aspect that I'm despising.

[David Gaider]

p95h wrote...
After the umpteenth playthrough, I've finally decided I had enough of the "Tranquil Solution".

In DAO, Tranquil had their connection to the fade cut, by the severing of emotions upon which demons are attracted and feast.

In DA2, somehow this makes Tranquil susceptible to Templar control. WTF?!?!? The tranquil in DAO still were able to reason logically (Owain comes to mind), but in DA2, Karl betrays Anders to the Templars (which I can see only if the templars reasoned with Karl logically in that Anders is a psychopathic Abomination of Vengeance.)

Nonetheless, the tranquil seem to be retconned to be susceptible to mind control by Templars in the "New Order", when Karl says he'd rather die than be tranquil (After experiencing being tranquil.) The Tranquil in DAO, on the other hand, liken the experience to being plunged into an ice cold bath. They have much more clarity of thought, except they are emotionless. (Guess this makes them much more like Vulcans of Star Trek).

Tranquil are not mind control susceptible. If anything, they are less so because they have the clarity of thought that is unclouded by emotional stresses.

This is one aspect of DA2 with which I am deeply perturbed.

I'm not even sure what you're talking about.

The templars consider them pliable, or agreeable. Someone laughing that "they'll do anything we tell them" is expressing an opinion. There is no mind control.

[Joy Divison]

I don't think it is a retcon. Tranquil strips away emotions and desires; saying "no," stems from a desire not to do something or an emotional repulsion. Tranquil have neither. Tranquil also just follow rules and procedure. Owain gives the same speech every time you go to see him for a rod of fire and he cleans the stockroom when abominations are destroying the tower. Karl betraying Anders is not because Anders is an abomination or was under mind control, but Anders was breaking the rule being an apostate and Karl no longer had any emotions or desire to understand why someone would possibly be an apostate or would want to.

[p95h]

If Tranquil will do anything a templar tells, them, then why as a mage, would Owain NOT give you a fire rod without approval from first enchanter. Hell, why not instead ask Cullen (who is supposedly in love with you in DAO if you play a female mage) to get owain to get you a fire rod instead, and thus not involve any of the higher ups (at that point). But nooo, Owain says you need approval from an enchanter. Owain was not a blithering idiot like Karl seemed to be after returning to his tranquil (Who the blazes are you, and why are you looking at me like that?) state.

[Joy Divison]

Ninja'd by the source himself. 

Edit: Owain would not give you the rod of fire because it was breaking procedure and precisely because you couldn't pull a jedi-mind trick on him.  Pliable in this cases means "has less emotional and psychological resistance to ordered procedure".

Modifié par Joy Divison, 13 avril 2011 - 06:18 .

[MelfinaofOutlawStar]

I thought I was the only one. I just started playing Origins again and was chatting with Owain and was like, "Wait...somethings changed between now and DA2."

[Foolsfolly]

::shrugs::

I still didn't see any retcon with them. I did think the voice actors added more humanity to their voices but that could be my imagination. Besides, it was welcome. Owain's voice is understandably grating on the mind.

[p95h]

To Joy Division, I disagree that it strips desires away. Owain pointedly states "I would PREFER NOT TO DIE." Sounds like a desire to me. It strips away the emotions. hate, love, etc...

[Torax]

David Gaider wrote...

p95h wrote...
After the umpteenth playthrough, I've finally decided I had enough of the "Tranquil Solution".

In DAO, Tranquil had their connection to the fade cut, by the severing of emotions upon which demons are attracted and feast.

In DA2, somehow this makes Tranquil susceptible to Templar control. WTF?!?!? The tranquil in DAO still were able to reason logically (Owain comes to mind), but in DA2, Karl betrays Anders to the Templars (which I can see only if the templars reasoned with Karl logically in that Anders is a psychopathic Abomination of Vengeance.)

Nonetheless, the tranquil seem to be retconned to be susceptible to mind control by Templars in the "New Order", when Karl says he'd rather die than be tranquil (After experiencing being tranquil.) The Tranquil in DAO, on the other hand, liken the experience to being plunged into an ice cold bath. They have much more clarity of thought, except they are emotionless. (Guess this makes them much more like Vulcans of Star Trek).

Tranquil are not mind control susceptible. If anything, they are less so because they have the clarity of thought that is unclouded by emotional stresses.

This is one aspect of DA2 with which I am deeply perturbed.

I'm not even sure what you're talking about.

The templars consider them pliable, or agreeable. Someone laughing that "they'll do anything we tell them" is expressing an opinion. There is no mind control.

Only a light question. In Origins it is mentioned to non mages how the Tranquil get their foreheads branded with magic in the process to make them Tranquil. But we never saw markings or scars on the forehead of Tranquil in Fereldon. Was the branding on the foreheads of the Kirkwall Tranquil something that is unique to Kirkwall or was it just not applied in Origins due to budget constraints. The Branding had a hint of blood like scars to me in talking to Meredith's assistant. I could be wrong.

[Foolsfolly]

If Tranquil will do anything a templar tells, them, then why as a mage, would Owain NOT give you a fire rod without approval from first enchanter

Because it's the rules and Tranquil always color within the lines.....well they would if they did anything recreational.

[p95h]

The voice actress for Meredith's aide did a horrible job in maintaining an even, non-emotional tone. Ugh.

[Sabariel]

TobiTobsen wrote...

Foolsfolly wrote...

But Karl knew it even before the player did.

Exactly. His logical conclusion was that Anders would be better off in the circle, or as a tranquil too, before he destroyed himself or others. Look at the ending... wasn't that unreasonable, hm?

If Karl thought Anders would be better off Tranquil... then why does he beg Anders to kill him before his lucidity fades? Wouldn't... y'know... begging Anders to turn himself in be more important?

[p95h]

To Torax,

I believe the brand wasn't visable in DAO, but I had no problem with the visable brand in DA2 for Kirkwall. The brand is magic after all, visable or not.

[Joy Divison]

p95h wrote...

To Joy Division, I disagree that it strips desires away. Owain pointedly states "I would PREFER NOT TO DIE." Sounds like a desire to me. It strips away the emotions. hate, love, etc...

Thats not desire.  That's basic survival instict.  Desire is most certainly stripped away; it's one of the sins demons are categorized by.

[Torax]

p95h wrote...

To Torax,

I believe the brand wasn't visable in DAO, but I had no problem with the visable brand in DA2 for Kirkwall. The brand is magic after all, visable or not.

Yeah just looked almost like bloodied scaring to their foreheads as if closer to a torture and warning than the Fereldon Tranquil were recieving. Like with a burning hot iron kind of branding.

[Mnemnosyne]

p95h wrote...

The trouble with my example is it's one of ex-post facto knowledge. We only find out Anders is a psychopathic abomination AFTER he finds out Karl is tranquil. In other words, my example was only to show the only possible explainaton which might have seemed logical to make things work coherently for me.

Karl knows Anders, and knows him well enough to know that he will never give up and will potentially endanger people while working toward his goal.  Hence logic dictates that Anders is dangerous if left loose.  Even without knowing about Justice/Vengeance, it's still a reasonable conclusion for Karl to come to, knowing Anders.  If Karl has no emotional attachment, the logical thing is to turn him in to the templars.

However there are a lot of things about how the tranquil are handled in DA2 that makes me question what's going on with them.  The concept that tranquil will do anything the templars command, for instance.  Where'd that come from?  Didn't seem to be the case in DA:O.  Indeed, it seems to me that a tranquil that is being raped - or just commanded into sex - by the templars, as Ser Alrik implies he is going to do to Ella once she is tranquil, would conclude that this templar is corrupt and therefore a danger to others due to the fact that he may well not do his job properly and has shown himself willing to violate rules for personal enjoyment.  Even if the tranquil has no personal objection, it seems that following logic would lead to the inescapable conclusion that the templar in question needs to be reported to the highest available authority.

Also, the claim that Karl makes about tranquil not thinking on their lives before is in direct opposition to talking with Owain and other tranquil in DA:O, as well as the codex entry written by a tranquil mage wherein he directly compares his current existence to his life before.

The only explanation I can think of which fits with previous experience from Origins, as well as David Gaider's comment that Tranquil are not slaves and do have freedom of choice, is that something is going on very differently in Kirkwall and somehow the tranquil are being brainwashed beyond what is normal for the rite of tranquility.  Otherwise I can see no explanation for why a tranquil would do anything the templars command, and would not report abuses of authority to the Knight-Commander or the Grand Cleric, if the Knight-Commander isn't listening.  I suppose the other possibility is that they have reported to the Knight-Commander and the Grand Cleric, and neither one of them cares, and they aren't being permitted to report to the Divine in any way.

Sabariel wrote...

If Karl thought Anders would be better
off Tranquil... then why does he beg Anders to kill him before his
lucidity fades? Wouldn't... y'know... begging Anders to turn himself in
be more important?

Because that's the logical, emotionless conclusion to come to.  When Karl regains his ability to feel, he also regains his emotions, and his desire to be killed is an illogical, emotion-based request.  He feels he would rather die than exist as a tranquil - there's no logical argument for it.  He also would rather see his friend free, and probably agrees with Anders' goals, but this is all based on his emotions, not absolute reasoning.

Modifié par Koyasha, 13 avril 2011 - 06:24 .