196 réponses à ce sujet

[MelfinaofOutlawStar]

His survival instinct isn't that strong since he kept to cleaning up in an abomination infested tower.

[Foolsfolly]

Sabariel wrote...

TobiTobsen wrote...

Foolsfolly wrote...

But Karl knew it even before the player did.

Exactly. His logical conclusion was that Anders would be better off in the circle, or as a tranquil too, before he destroyed himself or others. Look at the ending... wasn't that unreasonable, hm?

If Karl thought Anders would be better off Tranquil... then why does he beg Anders to kill him before his lucidity fades? Wouldn't... y'know... begging Anders to turn himself in be more important?

Because he doesn't want to be Tranquil, but when you're tranquil you don't care that you're tranquil. I believe the Ostagar Tranquil talks about that when you call him a monster and say that emotions are good or some-such. No one volunteers to be Tranquil but once you're tranquiled....well you don't have an emotion to care. You start runecrafting or operating a stall with no dreams or hopes for the future.

[p95h]

Sabariel, very cogent point regarding Karl's thinking about Anders. If Karl thought Anders would be better off in the circle, he may not have wanted to include Templars in the discussion to convince him of that course of action. But *somehow* being tranquil means you have to include templars in such discussions because it's "The rules". I don't think being made tranquil makes one more susceptible to acting in the rules. But I will concede that it does make one more comfortable with routine. My point is that tranquil seem more logical and steady in DAO, and more like "templar puppets" in DA2.

[Merced652]

soooooooo Gaider, why did karl lose his memory? When you're tranquil are you schizophrenic or something?

[MelfinaofOutlawStar]

Foolsfolly wrote...

Sabariel wrote...

TobiTobsen wrote...

Foolsfolly wrote...

But Karl knew it even before the player did.

Exactly. His logical conclusion was that Anders would be better off in the circle, or as a tranquil too, before he destroyed himself or others. Look at the ending... wasn't that unreasonable, hm?

If Karl thought Anders would be better off Tranquil... then why does he beg Anders to kill him before his lucidity fades? Wouldn't... y'know... begging Anders to turn himself in be more important?

Because he doesn't want to be Tranquil, but when you're tranquil you don't care that you're tranquil. I believe the Ostagar Tranquil talks about that when you call him a monster and say that emotions are good or some-such. No one volunteers to be Tranquil but once you're tranquiled....well you don't have an emotion to care. You start runecrafting or operating a stall with no dreams or hopes for the future.

Actually there are those that do volunteer to be made Tranquil if they fear their Harrowing.

[p95h]

Foolsfolly, I can see how that might explain Karl's reticence, but how does one who is cut off from the fade by magic, suddenly get a connection to the fade by proximity to an abomination? (The whole aspect of recovering, even for a moment, due to Anders/Justice using his ability is ludicrous imho). If that were the case, why wouldn't promity to any abomination cause a tranquil to pop into "Normal mode"?

The whole Tranquil idea seems retconned to me, on numerous levels.

[Joy Divison]

MelfinaofOutlawStar wrote...

His survival instinct isn't that strong since he kept to cleaning up in an abomination infested tower.

Actually it was.  He tried to leave the storeroom but was blocked by Wynne's barrier.

[Knightly_BW]

p95h wrote...

The voice actress for Meredith's aide did a horrible job in maintaining an even, non-emotional tone. Ugh.

I kinda agree with voicing but there are more things disturbing me greatly in that scene. All-mighty Knight Commander uses a tranquil as a pet. It's like having a zombie as a pet. Worse than slavery or death. It is the most disgusting event I see in DA 2. I am saying this as a player who always sides with Templars.

Tranquility as a cure? Yes. Tranquility as a way of slavery? Hell, no!

On topic, I guess biggest difference between DA:O and DA 2 according tranquility situation is different voice acting. In DA:O all tranquils were calm, emotionless and extremely logical which you can understand from their voice. In DA 2 they talk like normal people.

Also only retcon I can think about tranquils is their Chantry Roses.

[Kingthlayer]

I don't get this topic you're comparing one tranquil to another tranquil. So great Owain doesn't want to die and he's happy as he is. That's not the same for every tranquil. Plus is it ever said when Owain was made tranquil? We know Karl was a full mage who was made tranquil that has to leave a completely different taste in his mouth then a mage being made tranquil before the Harrowing.

[p95h]

Big Mac Heart Attack wrote...

I don't get this topic you're comparing one tranquil to another tranquil. So great Owain doesn't want to die and he's happy as he is. That's not the same for every tranquil. Plus is it ever said when Owain was made tranquil? We know Karl was a full mage who was made tranquil that has to leave a completely different taste in his mouth then a mage being made tranquil before the Harrowing.

The topic is I believe Tranquility was Retconned (Retroactively Conceived for those that don't understand the term). I give examples of where I think the Tranquil state is changed from DAO to DA2.

I'll summarize:

DAO Tranquils are cut off from the fade (They cannot dream, and have no emotions). One tranquil in DAO likens the effect to being "Plunged into an ice cold bath". To me this means everything has improved clarity as in being shocked into alertness. Improved clarity, logical mindedness and the ability to work with Lyrium without going mad are the positive traits from DAO tranquil state. The negative is that you cannot dream, and lack emotions, and talk without inflection in a steady cadence.

DA2 Tranquils are cut off from the fade only unless they apparently are in proximity to an abomination (like Anders with Karl), Tranquility seems to induce memory altering affects and makes Tranquils susceptible to suggestion from authority figures. This seems to me a lack of clarity, a muddleheaded state of amnesia, yet with an improvement to organizational skills (from Meredith's aide - even within DA2 there are contradictions!). The voice acting is also inflective and with variable cadence.

I prefer the DAO tranquils to the DA2 tranquils. They at least make more sense in a coherent manner for the millieu.

As far Karl being made Tranquil after being a mage, THAT I can agree would be cause for concern. After all, that is "against the rules" 

Modifié par p95h, 13 avril 2011 - 06:50 .

[Foolsfolly]

Merced652 wrote...

soooooooo Gaider, why did karl lose his memory? When you're tranquil are you schizophrenic or something?

If you're talking about the line "Why are you looking at me like that?" I just took it as now he's lost his connection to the Fade again. And as such he's back to being what a normal Tranquil is like. Which means he cannot understand human emotion.

To Karl it was like if Anders was talking about ducks and then put a shoe on his head. He doesn't understand emotion anymore; he doesn't see a connection between killing himself and feeling sad.

That's how I took that line. Mechanically, the writer of that scene just needed a point where you could point to and say "now he's switched back."

[stobie]

I didn't get that he had any memory loss, either - just that he didn't understand the emotion he saw in Anders.

I would also like to question why mages keep *stabbing* people, and why my rogues always seem to yank out a third dagger upon execution.

[p95h]

Foolsfolly, it makes no sense for Karl to ever have had even a moment of clarity after being cut off from the fade. Proximity to an abomination using his abilities would make every tranquil pop in and out of "Normalcy". That would make the rite of tranquility pretty useless. It makes no sense at all, and is another reason I think DA2 botched it in regard to tranquils.

[Foolsfolly]

p95h wrote...

The topic is I believe Tranquility was Retconned (Retroactively Conceived for those that don't understand the term). I give examples of where I think the Tranquil state is changed from DAO to DA2.

I'll summarize:

DAO Tranquils are cut off from the fade (They cannot dream, and have no emotions). One tranquil in DAO likens the effect to being "Plunged into an ice cold bath". To me this means everything has improved clarity as in being shocked into alertness. Improved clarity, logical mindedness and the ability to work with Lyrium without going mad are the positive traits from DAO tranquil state. The negative is that you cannot dream, and lack emotions, and talk without inflection in a steady cadence.

DA2 Tranquils are cut off from the fade only unless they apparently are in proximity to an abomination (like Anders with Karl), Tranquility seems to induce memory altering affects and makes Tranquils susceptible to suggestion from authority figures. This seems to me a lack of clarity, a muddleheaded state of amnesia, yet with an improvement to organizational skills (from Meredith's aide - even within DA2 there are contradictions!). The voice acting is also inflective and with variable cadence.

I prefer the DAO tranquils to the DA2 tranquils. They at least make more sense in a coherent manner for the millieu.

As far Karl being made Tranquil after being a mage, THAT I can agree would be cause for concern. After all, that is "against the rules" 

You're going to have to retcon this post because retcon actually stands for "Retroactive continuity" not "Retroactively Conceived."

Had to say it, I'm an old school comic book reader. I know retcons.

[Foolsfolly]

p95h wrote...

Foolsfolly, it makes no sense for Karl to ever have had even a moment of clarity after being cut off from the fade. Proximity to an abomination using his abilities would make every tranquil pop in and out of "Normalcy". That would make the rite of tranquility pretty useless. It makes no sense at all, and is another reason I think DA2 botched it in regard to tranquils.

That's what makes it an interesting scene. Anders isn't your normal Eldritch Abomination going all "glurb-kill" before attacking. He's a semi-rational Abomination who's loosing his grip over many years.

Perhaps Justice steps forward into Anders, bringing the Fade with him when he goes all blue-veiny. In fact, Karl's line about how it was like Anders brought the Fade kinda supports that idea.

Anders is not normal anymore.

[p95h]

Foolsfolly wrote:

You're going to have to retcon this post because retcon actually stands for "Retroactive continuity" not "Retroactively Conceived."

Had to say it, I'm an old school comic book reader. I know retcons.

Same Rose, different name. It's RETROACTIVE CONCEPTION OR CONTINUITY. In other words, what happens after something happens, changes so that what happens next didn't happen as it did originally.

[Sabariel]

p95h wrote...

Foolsfolly, it makes no sense for Karl to ever have had even a moment of clarity after being cut off from the fade. Proximity to an abomination using his abilities would make every tranquil pop in and out of "Normalcy". That would make the rite of tranquility pretty useless. It makes no sense at all, and is another reason I think DA2 botched it in regard to tranquils.

Anders is a "special" kind of Abomination though.

[p95h]

Foolsfolly wrote...

That's what makes it an interesting scene. Anders isn't your normal Eldritch Abomination going all "glurb-kill" before attacking. He's a semi-rational Abomination who's loosing his grip over many years.

Perhaps Justice steps forward into Anders, bringing the Fade with him when he goes all blue-veiny. In fact, Karl's line about how it was like Anders brought the Fade kinda supports that idea.

Anders is not normal anymore.

No abomination is normal. But they are all spirits (or demons). Bringing the fade into proximity with the tranquil does not give tranquils a connection to it. This is my biggest fault with the entire encounter. It should not have happened as the DA2 writer made it out to be. Branding is like a scar, you can never remove scar tissue completely (though fade cream does help over time....lol, fade cream...double entendre).

My point is the whole way it was written was a violation of what was set forth in DAO. A Retcon.

Modifié par p95h, 13 avril 2011 - 07:02 .

[Mnemnosyne]

Yeah, keep in mind that Anders is different in that Justice was forced out of the fade and cannot return. Most abominations are made from demons who entered the host intentionally, and can return to the Fade if they so choose.

This key difference could very well be what allows Anders/Justice to 'connect' to a tranquil, while a normal abomination would not.

[p95h]

Koyasha, if Justice was forced out of the fade and could not return, how is it that Justice can bring the fade into the world for a tranquil to re-establish connection to it? That makes no sense at all.

[AlexXIV]

The only 'retcon', which isn't really one, I saw in DA2 is that in DA:O it was more or less stated that being made tranquil is inreversible. Though Karl finds his connection again, even if only for a short while, when talking to Anders/Justice. Which lets me think the connection to the Fade is maybe just 'blocked', not 'lost'. And who knows, maybe if 'magic returns to the world' the tranquil regain their connection as well.

What bothered me in DA2 is that tattoo the tranquil got on their forehead. It is a bit like marking your cattle to show everyone that it is yours. Or slaves in less civilized times.

[AlexXIV]

p95h wrote...

Koyasha, if Justice was forced out of the fade and could not return, how is it that Justice can bring the fade into the world for a tranquil to re-establish connection to it? That makes no sense at all.

Well I don't see it as a retcon, if we learn something new. Even spirits are not all-knowing, so everything you get told can be not entirely true or just part of the truth. Justice is not unable to return to the Fade, which is shown in the Fade sequence when you take Anders with you. Either it is possible because he 'merged with Anders' or it was always possible. And if it was only possible because of being merged with a mage, then Justice may now return to the fade with the mage but then be bound to the mage so again cannot stay in the fade unless the mage dies or something ...

[Mnemnosyne]

p95h wrote...

Koyasha, if Justice was forced out of the fade and could not return, how is it that Justice can bring the fade into the world for a tranquil to re-establish connection to it? That makes no sense at all.

That's the point, he doesn't bring the fade into the world.  Instead, Justice being forced so completely out of the fade, he essentially is a small piece of the fade in the mortal realm.  Most demons and spirits seem able to have a sort of dual-existence with part of themselves in the mortal realm and part of themselves in the fade simultaneously.  Justice is the only spirit we know of which has been totally forced out of the fade to the point that he cannot simply return, and does not know what will happen if his host is killed.  All that he is is in Thedas.

[Foolsfolly]

p95h wrote...

Foolsfolly wrote:

You're going to have to retcon this post because retcon actually stands for "Retroactive continuity" not "Retroactively Conceived."

Had to say it, I'm an old school comic book reader. I know retcons.

Same Rose, different name. It's RETROACTIVE CONCEPTION OR CONTINUITY. In other words, what happens after something happens, changes so that what happens next didn't happen as it did originally.

It's not the same. You said "Retroactively Conceived" which implies that it was previously conceived which is like established canon. Whereas "retroactive continuity" means this new continuity is retroactive; over-rides the established.

No abomination is normal.

Fine, the run-of-the-mill dime-a-dozen Abominations are mindless Lovecraftian monsters who only kill. Occasionally there's an Anders or Uldred who seem to keep some part of their previous psyche/identity but most are mindless.

Bringing the fade into proximity with the tranquil does not give
tranquils a connection to it.

I can actually point to an event that disproves that. The Anders/Karl scene. That isn't a retcon because no one ever said that bringing the Fade to a Tranquil wouldn't revert them. That's called expanding, not retconning.

Retconning is purposely (not accidental like many believe) changing established canon. All we knew beforehand was that Tranquil are branded by lyrium and are severed from the Fade. This is new information that does not contradict the established continuity in any way.

My point is the whole way it was written was a violation of what was set
forth in DAO. A Retcon.

NO IT'S NOT.

Never once in the game did anyone say you couldn't temporarally restore their personality by bringing the Fade in contact with them. I'm pretty sure no one's attempted it before, because why would you do it? I'm also pretty sure Anders didn't know Justice brings the Fade into the mortal realm when he takes over.

This is all new information.

A retcon in DA2 is the appearance of Elves and Qunari. That is a purposeful change to the previously established.

[p95h]

Off topic:
AlexXIV, I like your sig. "Bioware killed my hero's mother." classic.

Back to topic:
I see more retcons than just the irreversibility of tranquility. Branding is a permanent scar, though in DAO the brand was invisible. Regardless of whether or not the brand is visible, there are behavioral differences between DAO and DA2 tranquils as well, which I see as a Retcon. The amnesia like effect "Why are you looking at me that way?" Well, I was looking at you before your returned to tranquility, did you not realize that you had a connection to the fade only a moment ago? Definitely amnesia, or a poor writer's attempt to show the return to tranquil state. The very idea of reversable fade connection in a tranquil is pathetic. Why did Karl return, when Anders could have just kept Justice doing his thing to maintain the connection until some permanance spell could be cast to make the fade connection permanent again? Oh, that's right, magic has limits.

Except, apparently, in special exceptions which the writers make to screw with the DAO continuity.

Bioware killed my hero's DAO continuity.