196 réponses à ce sujet

[AlexXIV]

Koyasha wrote...

p95h wrote...

Koyasha, if Justice was forced out of the fade and could not return, how is it that Justice can bring the fade into the world for a tranquil to re-establish connection to it? That makes no sense at all.

That's the point, he doesn't bring the fade into the world.  Instead, Justice being forced so completely out of the fade, he essentially is a small piece of the fade in the mortal realm.  Most demons and spirits seem able to have a sort of dual-existence with part of themselves in the mortal realm and part of themselves in the fade simultaneously.  Justice is the only spirit we know of which has been totally forced out of the fade to the point that he cannot simply return, and does not know what will happen if his host is killed.  All that he is is in Thedas.

Well in theory we also know the spirit which possessed Wynne. I don't see why there should apply different rules on Wynne's spirit. If it merged with a mortal, it is trapped outside of the fade. Or at least bound to the mage now.

Modifié par AlexXIV, 13 avril 2011 - 07:20 .

[Foolsfolly]

Koyasha wrote...

Yeah, keep in mind that Anders is different in that Justice was forced out of the fade and cannot return. Most abominations are made from demons who entered the host intentionally, and can return to the Fade if they so choose.

This key difference could very well be what allows Anders/Justice to 'connect' to a tranquil, while a normal abomination would not.

And it's not even a long reconnection. It's about a minute reconnect. There's still no cure to a Tranquiled mage.

[p95h]

Foolsfolly, I disagree. Tranquility is IRREVERSiBLE according to DAO. But it is apparently reversible in DA2, which is not an expansion of information, but a change to it. RETCON.

We must agree to disagree on this point.

Modifié par p95h, 13 avril 2011 - 07:24 .

[AlexXIV]

p95h wrote...

Foolsfolly, I disagree. Tranquility is IRREVERSiBLE according to DAO. But it is apparently reversible in DA2, which is not an expansion of information, but a change to it. RETCON.

We must agree to disagree on this point.

It is only a retcon if you take anything you learn in DA:O as ultimate truth and unchangable. But DG said that even codex entries may only be opinions or rumors. Not to mention things some random guy or girl tells you. I mean our world was also retconned. Some thousand years ago most of the western world were absolutely sure that our earth is the center of the universe. And some thousand years earlier many even thought it was flat. If someone tells you 'this and that is not possible' it is just his or her opinion, and this very moment. No matter how educated a guess is, it is still a guess.

Modifié par AlexXIV, 13 avril 2011 - 07:30 .

[Foolsfolly]

p95h wrote...

Foolsfolly, I disagree. Tranquility is IRREVERSiBLE according to DAO. But it is apparently reversible in DA2, which is not an expansion of information, but a change to it. RETCON.

We must agree to disagree on this point.

I'm not going to agree to disagree, because you're absolutely wrong.

There's nothing in DA2 that says it's reversible. Karl was still a tranquiled mage. It was like a blind person seeing a little fuzzy for a bit...and then going dark again.

It didn't cure Karl. He was still tranquil.

[p95h]

AlexXIV wrote...
It is only a retcon if you take anything you learn in DA:O as ultimate truth and unchangable. But DG said that even codex entries may only be opinions or rumors. Not to mention things some random guy or girl tells you. I mean our world was also retconned. Some thousand years ago most of the western world were absolutely sure that our earth is the center of the universe. And some thousand years earlier many even thought it was flat. If someone tells you 'this and that is not possible' it is just his or her opinion, and this very moment. No matter how educated a guess is, it is still a guess.

Fair enough, I will concede that it is my opinion that this is a retcon. Given that the change is made, however, and there are very noticeable diffferences between Tranquils in DAO and DA2, I believe my opinion is justified. The change being a foregone conclusion.

[Mnemnosyne]

AlexXIV wrote...

Well in theory we also know the spirit which possessed Wynne. I don't see why there should apply different rules on Wynne's spirit. If it merged with a mortal, it is trapped outside of the fade. Or at least bound to the mage now.

That spirit possessed Wynne in much the same way that any spirit (demon) possesses a mage.  There's no indication that her possession was any different than that of any other mage that is dying or in a crisis situation and suddenly turns into an abomination, other than the fact that it was (apparently) not a typical demon that possessed her but a relatively benevolent spirit.  In theory this spirit can leave her at any time, just as the desire demon could leave Connor, or any other spirit can leave their host at will, as far as I am aware.

Justice, on the other hand, was forced out of the fade.  He didn't come willingly, and it wasn't even intended for him to be driven out - the Baroness herself (well, the pride demon that had assumed her identity) had not expected that to be the result.  There is no known precedent for what happened to Justice, and no known similar circumstance - his situation is potentially unique.

[p95h]

Foolsfolly wrote...
I'm not going to agree to disagree, because you're absolutely wrong.

There's nothing in DA2 that says it's reversible. Karl was still a tranquiled mage. It was like a blind person seeing a little fuzzy for a bit...and then going dark again.

It didn't cure Karl. He was still tranquil.

It reversed for a moment, we disagree on the definition of reversible (and irreversibility) then. In any case, there are quite noticeable differences between the tranquils of DAO, and DA2, to make me confident that a retroactive continuity (your term) took place, and that it is now canon.

If you are not going to agree to disagree, then perhaps you agree to agree?

[Kilshrek]

I don't know about mind control, but the Tranquil seemed extremely subservient to the Templars. Ser Alrik (may he rot in a cold hell) comes to mind. Do the Tranquil just go along with whatever the Templars want, especially when threatened with violence?

[Foolsfolly]

p95h wrote...

Foolsfolly wrote...
I'm not going to agree to disagree, because you're absolutely wrong.

There's nothing in DA2 that says it's reversible. Karl was still a tranquiled mage. It was like a blind person seeing a little fuzzy for a bit...and then going dark again.

It didn't cure Karl. He was still tranquil.

It reversed for a moment, we disagree on the definition of reversible (and irreversibility) then. In any case, there are quite noticeable differences between the tranquils of DAO, and DA2, to make me confident that a retroactive continuity (your term) took place, and that it is now canon.

If you are not going to agree to disagree, then perhaps you agree to agree?

You, as always, are missing the point. Tranquil have their connection to the Fade cut. Nothing Anders did reconnected that. All that happened was Karl got a bit of his old personality back for a brief moment and then it was gone.

He was still a tranquil. He still had no connection to the Fade.

And I'm done here. You've hijacked your own thread into something else. It started off with:

the tranquil seem to be retconned to be susceptible to mind
control by Templars in the "New Order"

And now you're on a different subject all together because Tranquil aren't mind controlled and there is no New Order ever mentioned in the entire game.

I feel foolish for having fed you as long as I did.

[p95h]

Kilshrek wrote...

I don't know about mind control, but the Tranquil seemed extremely subservient to the Templars. Ser Alrik (may he rot in a cold hell) comes to mind. Do the Tranquil just go along with whatever the Templars want, especially when threatened with violence?

So it seems. I was quite happy to send Ser Alrik to the maker, and Ella away from Kirkwall. Too bad Karl got caught early.

It seems a far cry from the tranquils who had no fear of abominations in the Ferelden circle (Owain did try to leave, but finding himself barred, he returned to his place of duty). Threats of violence are probably dealt with logically. Oh, I'm tranquil, the templars are threatening me, by.....turning me tranquil if I don't obey them?!?!?!? Something does not compute.

[Oneiropolos]

Templar: If you don't go along with what I say, I'm going to cut off your arm.
Tranquil: Logically, cutting off my arm would cause pain and also decrease my ability to do the activities I wish by 50%. Logically, I should do what is asked.

They don't know FEAR in the same way, but just as they do not prefer to die, they do not prefer pain. They also do not like to not be efficient. The difference you're seeing between the Tranquil of DAO and DAII is Knight Commander Gregoir would probably throw any templar threatening a Tranquil that way into the lake and see if they can swim in the skirt and plate armor. Meredith might even too, there's no indication that her tranquil servant is a 'slave' more than a servant. Meredith just finds Tranquil more efficient because they're able to stay with monotonous tasks longer. David Gaider confirmed in another post that the Tranquil are not slaves, but they ARE efficient workers and they have every right to leave the circle as they are no longer technically mages by what the Templars believe.

Would the Templars be a little more worried if they heard that it was possible to reverse tranquility even for a few minutes? Uh. Yes. But Tranquils cannot go to the Fade, and Anders is a VERY unique case of Justice still being a "Fade Spirit" without any indication of weakening like the spirit in Wynne that she believed had watched over her her entire life and stepped in to protect her when she died.

However, Karl says AS a Tranquil that he knows Anders too well, and seems to think that Anders cannot find peace because of his rebellious nature. The same nature that would disappear with being made Tranquil. By a Tranquil's logic, Karl is doing what is correct. As far as the Amnesia...well, as far as we know, no Tranquil has EVER been brought out of Tranquility before and then slipped back into it. We know NOTHING about the circumstances of the Fade being brought to a Tranquil except what we see in the case of Anders/Justice for one quest.

That's way, way too soon to call retcon. It just means that there's an entirely new unique situation that indicates it SHOULD be impossible for a person to be made untranquil and that's what the Circle and Templars believe... but for a moment, we saw it differently. It doesn't mean it is something that will -ever- be repeated, even after Karl is brought out of Tranquility, Anders snaps at you if you try to say perhaps there is a cure. Anders saw for himself that somehow Justice did something, but also views it as "Can you cure a beheading?" Well. In this one case, somehow, someone stuck the head back on for two minutes and the person spoke. But even if we see that occur in front of us, we're not going to run around to all the other beheaded corpses in the world and think they're going to come back to life too. Weird situation, weird happening, there's no reason any codex would have EVER read: Unless you have an abomination that is unique from most other abominations in that it's more a cohabitation and the spirit has a full personality too and the Tranquil happens to be near when the spirit surfaces, Tranquility is not reversible. That just gets convoluted for a codex entry of explanation of tranquility in general, don't you think?

[JohnZ117]

While the op might see the difference of Tranquils between the two games as a retcon, I see it as a sign of a different social environment.  In Ferelden's Circle, the relationships between templar and mage seemed nearly cordial, Gregoir was quite tolerant of the casters under his care, and very hesitant to invoke annulment.  In Kirkwall, Meredith and her templars, esp. Alrik and Karras, were more tyrannical.  So, perhaps the differing behaviors and appearances of the two sets are reflective of this.  It has already been speculated that the submissive mindset of Kirkwall's set was due to their treatment by the templars, so I will suggest that the visible brand of Tranquility might be seen as a useful addition to what is essentially a walking, talking threat against protest of any sort.

[AlexXIV]

There is also this 'fact' that Riordan stated. There is only one way to kill an Archdemon. A Warden kills it, which destroys the Archdemon and the Warden. Morrigan retconned it only minutes later and proposed a ritual that allowed the Warden to live and still kill the Archdemon. I wouldn't believe that a tranquilisation cannot be unmade unless Morrigan or Flemeth confirm it. They seem to be the only ones who know what they are talking about anyway (at least in regards to magic and the fade).

[_Aine_]

I don't think it is a retcon at all, personally. Why?

Tranquility is supposed to sever the connection to the Fade.

Karl was severed from the Fade. Meaning, that in normal worldly existence, he would not have access to the fade etc. Apparently, strength of emotions etc are fade-like things. Anyhoo....

Justice WAS from the fade. When Anders goes all rabid-abomination skin break-out, the FADE is right here technically. Kind of like Fade-take-out for Karl. It is in front of him. During the conversation, it is implied that anders is back in control.

That said, it is a stretch as the Anders character is not terribly consistent. Anders claims they are one now ( doubtful. Sorry Anders, I don't believe you) but they fight constantly...at first anyway. I think it is the way Anders was written to progress that makes it appear like a retcon. If it was consistently a spiritual battle for physical space, justice showing up completely explains bringing the fade to karl, waking him up slightly until Justice slunk back into the shadows of Anders psyche to plot and scheme or think dirty thoughts, or whatever an abomination does in someone's head.

[EmperorSahlertz]

It isn't a retcon at all. But people on this forum don't know what a retcon actually is, so they throw the term around alot.

[David Gaider]

Torax wrote...
Only a light question. In Origins it is mentioned to non mages how the Tranquil get their foreheads branded with magic in the process to make them Tranquil. But we never saw markings or scars on the forehead of Tranquil in Fereldon. Was the branding on the foreheads of the Kirkwall Tranquil something that is unique to Kirkwall or was it just not applied in Origins due to budget constraints. The Branding had a hint of blood like scars to me in talking to Meredith's assistant. I could be wrong.

That should fall under the category of "things that were intended to be in Origins but which we never received the resources for." If you prefer, perhaps the Fereldan Circle brands their mages somewhere other than on their forehead (no, not there, dirty minds).

Merced652 wrote...
soooooooo Gaider, why did karl lose his memory? When you're tranquil are you schizophrenic or something?

There is no memory loss as a Tranquil. If you choose to interpret it as such, that's up to you.

Modifié par David Gaider, 13 avril 2011 - 01:59 .

[Wulfram]

Is the brand a necessary part of the process, or just something they do so you can recognise them?

[David Gaider]

p95h wrote...
I'll summarize:

DAO Tranquils are cut off from the fade (They cannot dream, and have no emotions). One tranquil in DAO likens the effect to being "Plunged into an ice cold bath". To me this means everything has improved clarity as in being shocked into alertness. Improved clarity, logical mindedness and the ability to work with Lyrium without going mad are the positive traits from DAO tranquil state. The negative is that you cannot dream, and lack emotions, and talk without inflection in a steady cadence.

DA2 Tranquils are cut off from the fade only unless they apparently are in proximity to an abomination (like Anders with Karl), Tranquility seems to induce memory altering affects and makes Tranquils susceptible to suggestion from authority figures. This seems to me a lack of clarity, a muddleheaded state of amnesia, yet with an improvement to organizational skills (from Meredith's aide - even within DA2 there are contradictions!). The voice acting is also inflective and with variable cadence.

I prefer the DAO tranquils to the DA2 tranquils. They at least make more sense in a coherent manner for the millieu.

You're applying your own interpretation to the events and calling it a retcon? I'd consider that an interesting definition of retcon, to say the least.

Tranquil neither have their memory altered nor are they more susceptible to suggestion than they were previously. They're more agreeable, but that's because Tranquil don't tend to argue-- why would one oppose an authority figure unless there were a logical reason to do so? If someone agrees to do as you ask/demand, does that mean you're controlling their mind? Perhaps if you're Ser Alrik, but I'd argue that's hardly an unbiased source of information.

As far Karl being made Tranquil after being a mage, THAT I can agree would be cause for concern. After all, that is "against the rules" 

That's incorrect. The Rite of Tranquility is not only performed before the Harrowing. The use of it as a punishment or potentially as a control over unruly mages, however, does venture into territory that borders on abuse... but that was the entire point of the adventure.

Modifié par David Gaider, 13 avril 2011 - 02:13 .

[David Gaider]

Wulfram wrote...
Is the brand a necessary part of the process, or just something they do so you can recognise them?

It's part of the rite, the lyrium being what severs the link to the Fade.

[Icinix]

Retcon? You keep on using that word, I do not think it means what you think it means.

[Rinji the Bearded]

I think any perceived memory loss we might interpret is more of a "the feelings I experienced during these memories are not relevant." They can be asked to recall details and what not, but a part of what makes memories significant to us are the feelings attached to them. Karl did not lose his memory at all; in fact, he said he knew Anders would never give up because of his memories of him being a tenacious sort of guy. The feelings of attachment to him, however, would be but mere shadows of what they were before.

Maybe? IDK.

@Mr. Gaider -- I remember Anders saying that it was against the rules or something back in Awakening even, but I guess mages can elect to become Tranquil at anytime? Or perhaps if there has been evidence of contact with demons, that the Rite of Tranquility can be performed as a precautionary measure even on Mages who have completed the Harrowing? What kind of permission from higher-ups does a Templar need to even perform it?

But poor, poor Karl. Being made Tranquil to be used an example, and/or to lure Anders. That was so very, very sad.

[Ymladdych]

p95h wrote...
I see more retcons than just the irreversibility of tranquility. Branding is a permanent scar, though in DAO the brand was invisible. Regardless of whether or not the brand is visible, there are behavioral differences between DAO and DA2 tranquils as well, which I see as a Retcon. The amnesia like effect "Why are you looking at me that way?" Well, I was looking at you before your returned to tranquility, did you not realize that you had a connection to the fade only a moment ago? Definitely amnesia, or a poor writer's attempt to show the return to tranquil state. The very idea of reversable fade connection in a tranquil is pathetic. Why did Karl return, when Anders could have just kept Justice doing his thing to maintain the connection until some permanance spell could be cast to make the fade connection permanent again? Oh, that's right, magic has limits.

Except, apparently, in special exceptions which the writers make to screw with the DAO continuity.

Bioware killed my hero's DAO continuity.

It's well-established that Meredith is more hardcore than Greagoir.  That explains the branding, or lack thereof, I think.

"Why are you looking at me like that?" - they're *not* implying amnesia and it's only weak because the scene wasn't obvious about the context and you're not putting it together on your own. 

The context being, Karl starts freaking out as the connection starts to dissipate, not really seeing Anders' reaction of horror until the transition is complete.  Once he's returned to Tranquil, and calm, he looks at Anders' broken expression and doesn't understand it because, just like in REAL LIFE where brain injuries have severed emotional input, his brain can't interpret social context and physical cues.  Also like RL brain injuries, the Tranquil can remember a time when they cared and/or acted a certain way because of their emotions, but it doesn't help them "behave correctly" once they're Tranquil. 

If you don't believe me, Google "ventromedial cortex injury" with "social (or emotional) intelligence" and a wall of scientific research will roll across your screen.

As for Justice "reconnecting" Tranquils to the Fade...eh.  Not my favorite plot device, but it makes sense with the information we're given. Tranquil are said to have lost their connection to the Fade, but that doesn't mean they're incapable of feeling emotion again if they were to somehow make a different type of connection.  Justice *is* a part of the Fade, after all, he's *physically* inside of Anders, unlike other abominations where they stay in the Fade and control a person indirectly.  (And no, Justice couldn't just stick around to keep Karl company.  Anders has no control over Justice, and something tells me Justice would never agree to it.  He's got bigger fish to fry.)

[Edge2177]

That's interesting considering what we know about Fenris's tattoos, which makes him 'Fade' out.

[David Gaider]

RinjiRenee wrote...
@Mr. Gaider -- I remember Anders saying that it was against the rules or something back in Awakening even, but I guess mages can elect to become Tranquil at anytime? Or perhaps if there has been evidence of contact with demons, that the Rite of Tranquility can be performed as a precautionary measure even on Mages who have completed the Harrowing? What kind of permission from higher-ups does a Templar need to even perform it?

It's against the rules to perform the Rite of Tranquility without both significant provocation (provocation in this case meaning the mage in question either cannot control their magic or has shown no signs of a willingness to do so) AND the agreement of the First Enchanter (who is present as a sort of ombudsman on behalf of the mages). The system will fall out of balance anywhere where the First Enchanter is either weak or ignored.

Mages don't generally elect to become Tranquil after their Harrowing, but it's not impossible-- and with the agreement of the First Enchanter, as mentioned, could certainly happen.