196 réponses à ce sujet

[Rinji the Bearded]

David Gaider wrote...

RinjiRenee wrote...
@Mr. Gaider -- I remember Anders saying that it was against the rules or something back in Awakening even, but I guess mages can elect to become Tranquil at anytime? Or perhaps if there has been evidence of contact with demons, that the Rite of Tranquility can be performed as a precautionary measure even on Mages who have completed the Harrowing? What kind of permission from higher-ups does a Templar need to even perform it?

It's against the rules to perform the Rite of Tranquility without both significant provocation (provocation in this case meaning the mage in question either cannot control their magic or has shown no signs of a willingness to do so) AND the agreement of the First Enchanter (who is present as a sort of ombudsman on behalf of the mages). The system will fall out of balance anywhere where the First Enchanter is either weak or ignored.

Mages don't generally elect to become Tranquil after their Harrowing, but it's not impossible-- and with the agreement of the First Enchanter, as mentioned, could certainly happen.

Yeah, I figured that most mages would never elect to be made Tranquil.  And I see now, Orsino's approval was what was missing.  I'm guessing that he was ignored rather him being weak, then again I don't think he was a strong First Enchanter, nor was he given much room to be one.  What a nasty situation.

Thanks for the clarification! 

[LobselVith8]

Foolsfolly wrote...

In DA2, somehow this makes Tranquil susceptible to Templar control. WTF?!?!? The tranquil in DAO still were able to reason logically (Owain comes to mind), but in DA2, Karl betrays Anders to the Templars (which I can see only if the templars reasoned with Karl logically in that Anders is a psychopathic Abomination of Vengeance.)

You kinda shot your example in the foot there. It is logical to stop an Abomination bent on bringing down the Circles.

We have no idea whether Karl even knew that Anders let Justice inside him - and I can see why some would assume that Anders never told him (as even Anders admits to Hawke he's never told anyone), since Karl is surprised that Anders transformation allowed him to regain his humanity and never once made mention of the Spirit of Justice.

[LobselVith8]

Koyasha wrote...

Sabariel wrote...

If Karl thought Anders would be better off Tranquil... then why does he beg Anders to kill him before his lucidity fades? Wouldn't... y'know... begging Anders to turn himself in be more important?

Because that's the logical, emotionless conclusion to come to.  When Karl regains his ability to feel, he also regains his emotions, and his desire to be killed is an illogical, emotion-based request.  He feels he would rather die than exist as a tranquil - there's no logical argument for it.  He also would rather see his friend free, and probably agrees with Anders' goals, but this is all based on his emotions, not absolute reasoning.

I don't agree that reasoning doesn't come into it. Karl says he doesn't want to be a "templar puppet" anymore. I don't think it's simply an issue of an emotional response if he sees death preferable to life as a tranquil mage.

[nos_astra]

LobselVith8 wrote...
I don't agree that reasoning doesn't come into it. Karl says he doesn't want to be a "templar puppet" anymore. I don't think it's simply an issue of an emotional response if he sees death preferable to life as a tranquil mage.

Anders calls the mages "slaves", Karl calls the tranquils "templar puppets".

I can see a pattern.

Modifié par klarabella, 13 avril 2011 - 03:34 .

[LobselVith8]

klarabella wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...
I don't agree that reasoning doesn't come into it. Karl says he doesn't want to be a "templar puppet" anymore. I don't think it's simply an issue of an emotional response if he sees death preferable to life as a tranquil mage.

Anders calls the mages "slaves", Karl calls the tranquils "templar puppets".

I do see a pattern.

No, Karl said he didn't want to live the rest of his life as a templar puppet, and he would be more informed about this than we would.

[Rinji the Bearded]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Foolsfolly wrote...

In DA2, somehow this makes Tranquil susceptible to Templar control. WTF?!?!? The tranquil in DAO still were able to reason logically (Owain comes to mind), but in DA2, Karl betrays Anders to the Templars (which I can see only if the templars reasoned with Karl logically in that Anders is a psychopathic Abomination of Vengeance.)

You kinda shot your example in the foot there. It is logical to stop an Abomination bent on bringing down the Circles.

We have no idea whether Karl even knew that Anders let Justice inside him - and I can see why some would assume that Anders never told him (as even Anders admits to Hawke he's never told anyone), since Karl is surprised that Anders transformation allowed him to regain his humanity and never once made mention of the Spirit of Justice.

Actually, we do know that Karl had no idea.  When he asked how Anders allowed him to see the Fade again, Anders more or less danced around the answer and then changed the subject.  I'm sure he did not want Karl to know what he had done, perhaps out of shame or fear of disapproval.

[The Angry One]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Foolsfolly wrote...

In DA2, somehow this makes Tranquil susceptible to Templar control. WTF?!?!? The tranquil in DAO still were able to reason logically (Owain comes to mind), but in DA2, Karl betrays Anders to the Templars (which I can see only if the templars reasoned with Karl logically in that Anders is a psychopathic Abomination of Vengeance.)

You kinda shot your example in the foot there. It is logical to stop an Abomination bent on bringing down the Circles.

We have no idea whether Karl even knew that Anders let Justice inside him - and I can see why some would assume that Anders never told him (as even Anders admits to Hawke he's never told anyone), since Karl is surprised that Anders transformation allowed him to regain his humanity and never once made mention of the Spirit of Justice.

I see nothing that says that you can tranquil an abomination anyway.
Given that the spirit inside is a direct connection to the fade and the idea of tranquility is to cut off that connection I'd call it impossible and Karl would conclude that, if he knew.
The only reasoning Karl would have used here is that Anders is an apostate and has a history of being a troublemaker, being made tranquil would insure his safety and the safety of others.

[AlexXIV]

LobselVith8 wrote...

klarabella wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...
I don't agree that reasoning doesn't come into it. Karl says he doesn't want to be a "templar puppet" anymore. I don't think it's simply an issue of an emotional response if he sees death preferable to life as a tranquil mage.

Anders calls the mages "slaves", Karl calls the tranquils "templar puppets".

I do see a pattern.

No, Karl said he didn't want to live the rest of his life as a templar puppet, and he would be more informed about this than we would.

Well it seems one of the two states makes you see things in the wrong light. Either being tranquil or not being tranquil. I mean ... tranquil Karl 'I want to serve the chantry and templars.' ... untranquil Karl 'I don't want to be a templar puppet.'. Strange isn't it?

[Rinji the Bearded]

klarabella wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...
I don't agree that reasoning doesn't come into it. Karl says he doesn't want to be a "templar puppet" anymore. I don't think it's simply an issue of an emotional response if he sees death preferable to life as a tranquil mage.

Anders calls the mages "slaves", Karl calls the tranquils "templar puppets".

I can see a pattern.

Karl WAS being used as a puppet, is the thing.  The whole reason why he was made Tranquil was because they discovered he was writing letters to Anders, and they used a Tranquil Karl, who would not resist, to lure Anders into a trap.  They also rid themselves of an unruly mage.  Two birds with one stone.

He didn't say ALL Tranquils are templar puppets.  But he WAS being used as one.

Modifié par RinjiRenee, 13 avril 2011 - 03:44 .

[The Angry One]

A tranquil doesn't consider themself a puppet or slave, they see the logic in providing a useful service and aiding others.
An emotional being does, because a life of eternal servitude isn't appealing to someone with ambitions and emotions.

[tmp7704]

AlexXIV wrote...

Well it seems one of the two states makes you see things in the wrong light. Either being tranquil or not being tranquil. I mean ... tranquil Karl 'I want to serve the chantry and templars.' ... untranquil Karl 'I don't want to be a templar puppet.'. Strange isn't it?

I wouldn't say either is wrong -- untranquil Karl has emotional reaction to the concept of being made tranquil, the idea is abhorrent to him. To tranquil Karl abhorrence itself doesn't exist because he doesn't experience emotions, and he's evaluating situation from purely practical standpoint.

[Darkhour]

David Gaider wrote...

I'm not even sure what you're talking about.

The templars consider them pliable, or agreeable. Someone laughing that "they'll do anything we tell them" is expressing an opinion. There is no mind control.

"That's right. Once you're tranquil you'll do anything I ask."

Maybe you didn't write the part with Sir Alrik?

And dare I say, his tone sounds kinda like he's hinting that male templars take advantage of female tranquil. Agreeable indeed.

[tmp7704]

Darkhour wrote...

"That's right. Once you're tranquil you'll do anything I ask."

Maybe you didn't write the part with Sir Alrik?

Mr.Gaider already wrote in this thread that's Sir Alrik stating personal opinion/belief. It shouldn't be confused with actual state of things, i.e. it doesn't mean the tranquil mage will indeed do 'anything he asks'.

[Rinji the Bearded]

tmp7704 wrote...

Darkhour wrote...

"That's right. Once you're tranquil you'll do anything I ask."

Maybe you didn't write the part with Sir Alrik?

Mr.Gaider already wrote in this thread that's Sir Alrik stating personal opinion/belief. It shouldn't be confused with actual state of things, i.e. it doesn't mean the tranquil mage will indeed do 'anything he asks'.

Yeah, I can't see a Tranquil doing absolutely everything he/she is asked.  There would have to be some kind of logical underpinning to the request.

Templar> Put on this dress and dance the remigold!
Tranquil> May I ask why?
Templar> ... THE ORDER DICTATES.
Tranquil> *stare*

Modifié par RinjiRenee, 13 avril 2011 - 05:35 .

[Darkhour]

tmp7704 wrote...

Darkhour wrote...

"That's right. Once you're tranquil you'll do anything I ask."

Maybe you didn't write the part with Sir Alrik?

Mr.Gaider already wrote in this thread that's Sir Alrik stating personal opinion/belief. It shouldn't be confused with actual state of things, i.e. it doesn't mean the tranquil mage will indeed do 'anything he asks'.

Personal belief? He's a god damned veteran templar in one of the most right of tranquility happy circles in Thedas. I think he'd KNOW FOR A FACT what tranquil are like from years of experience with tranquil. Bad wrtting is bad writting... or rushed writting.

Regardless of what the writters INTENDED to say, they ACTUALLY SAID tranquil will do whatever they are told.

[Maria13]

Perhaps it's also that Tranquils are less likely to be believed, and ordinary folks think no emotions=no intelligence so the Templars can abuse Tranquils much easier and get away with it than with normal mages.

[Rinji the Bearded]

Darkhour wrote...

tmp7704 wrote...

Darkhour wrote...

"That's right. Once you're tranquil you'll do anything I ask."

Maybe you didn't write the part with Sir Alrik?

Mr.Gaider already wrote in this thread that's Sir Alrik stating personal opinion/belief. It shouldn't be confused with actual state of things, i.e. it doesn't mean the tranquil mage will indeed do 'anything he asks'.

Personal belief? He's a god damned veteran templar in one of the most right of tranquility happy circles in Thedas. I think he'd KNOW FOR A FACT what tranquil are like from years of experience with tranquil. Bad wrtting is bad writting... or rushed writting.

Regardless of what the writters INTENDED to say, they ACTUALLY SAID tranquil will do whatever they are told.

Or maybe Ser Alrik was just a jerk who was just mocking the poor girl.

[Rockpopple]

You're doing it wrong.

There was no retcon of the Tranquil. Tranquil have no emotions. That doesn't mean they're suicidal - of course they'd prefer not to die. So a Tranquil like Owain will run and hide if Abominations are making sport of the place because he'd rather not get killed. That's just self-preservation. Like, if a Templar tried to force Owain to kill himself for no reason, I'm sure Owain wouldn't do it.

But he wouldn't get angry about it.

Tranquil have no emotions. It's not that hard to rape someone if that person being raped doesn't feel it's a bad thing, especially if the Templars convince them that things will go badly for them if they don't comply. There's no emotional anger or fear involved, so there's no real reason to fight back if the choice is rape or death.

Seems like the Tranquil in II are just like the ones in Origins, except now they have a visible brand to show what's been done to them.

[tmp7704]

Darkhour wrote...

Personal belief? He's a god damned veteran templar in one of the most right of tranquility happy circles in Thedas. I think he'd KNOW FOR A FACT what tranquil are like from years of experience with tranquil. Bad wrtting is bad writting... or rushed writting.

Note that the only thing he can actually know, being god damned veteran templar nonwithstanding, is his personal experience with the tranquil, plus possibly stories of others. If he personally didn't yet experience a tranquil who'd refuse to follow an order, or didn't hear about such case from someone else, then it doesn't equal to the tranquils always doing as told, no ifs or buts. Which is what his belief is.

The only person who would know for a fact whether the tranquil always follow orders or not is the person who wrote them. And you have that person's word on it right up there.

Modifié par tmp7704, 13 avril 2011 - 06:02 .

[Avissel]

No see. If a character says something, that makes it the absolute literal truth.

All Fereldans are dogs, lots of people said that.

[nos_astra]

RinjiRenee wrote...
Or maybe Ser Alrik was just a jerk who was just mocking the poor girl.

That's what I thought.

Of course, I wouldn't dismiss the idea that he meant what he said and a tranquil mage could be easily ordered to perform sexual services.

Modifié par klarabella, 13 avril 2011 - 06:09 .

[LobselVith8]

Avissel wrote...

No see. If a character says something, that makes it the absolute literal truth.

All Fereldans are dogs, lots of people said that.

We have Karl saying he doesn't want to be a templar puppet, Alrik saying that Ella will do anything he tells her to do as a tranquil mage, and one of the tranquil mages in the Gallows says only Knight-Captain Cullen can command her now. I don't think it's unreasonable for people to see that being tranquil isn't the same as being a person with emotions, particularly when one of the mages who is released from the state of tranquility begs for death instead of a life of servitude.

[Rockpopple]

Well to be fair, Karl also complains about all the colour and music from the world being gone. I think he's begging to die instead of being made Tranquil because being made Tranquil generally sucks.

And all those other examples of Tranquils being Templar "puppets"? Alrik could make Ella do anything if the alternative was death. Knight-Captain Cullen could be given a Tranquil servant and if she was told she had to obey his orders, why wouldn't she? Unless her orders were to die in a ditch.

Many aspects of human life - even independence - is driven by some sort of emotion or another. Take that away and we can easily become a puppet if our only goal was to continue breathing.

Modifié par Rockpopple, 13 avril 2011 - 06:13 .

[Rinji the Bearded]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Avissel wrote...

No see. If a character says something, that makes it the absolute literal truth.

All Fereldans are dogs, lots of people said that.

We have Karl saying he doesn't want to be a templar puppet, Alrik saying that Ella will do anything he tells her to do as a tranquil mage, and one of the tranquil mages in the Gallows says only Knight-Captain Cullen can command her now. I don't think it's unreasonable for people to see that being tranquil isn't the same as being a person with emotions, particularly when one of the mages who is released from the state of tranquility begs for death instead of a life of servitude.

Karl was a weird case, because while he himself would never dream about turning Anders in, he was indeed convinced by the Templars to help them catch Anders, but only after he was made Tranquil.

"Here's the Apostate."  He says this right before Anders goes berserk.  I think Hawke can even point out to Anders that Karl betrayed him, or something along that line.

Modifié par RinjiRenee, 13 avril 2011 - 06:16 .

[tmp7704]

LobselVith8 wrote...

We have Karl saying he doesn't want to be a templar puppet,

But is this actually different from people being dramatic when they yell how they're slaves of the System? We don't really know.