196 réponses à ce sujet

[LobselVith8]

tmp7704 wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

We have Karl saying he doesn't want to be a templar puppet,

But is this actually different from people being dramatic when they yell how they're slaves of the System? We don't really know.

Since he's addressing what it's like to be tranquil from personal experience as opposed to making an uninformed remark?

[Avissel]

tmp7704 wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

We have Karl saying he doesn't want to be a templar puppet,

But is this actually different from people being dramatic when they yell how they're slaves of the System? We don't really know.

It's not. People in the fourms just have this odd habit of taking anything a character says as being completely literal and the absolute Truth.

[Rinji the Bearded]

LobselVith8 wrote...

tmp7704 wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

We have Karl saying he doesn't want to be a templar puppet,

But is this actually different from people being dramatic when they yell how they're slaves of the System? We don't really know.

Since he's addressing what it's like to be tranquil from personal experience as opposed to making an uninformed remark?

So because it was a personal remark on his own experience as a tranquil, being an actual templar puppet in his case, he was uninformed?  Or perhaps he was talking about all tranquil in that instance instead of commenting on his own personal experience, in which he WAS being used by the templars?

Modifié par RinjiRenee, 13 avril 2011 - 06:20 .

[tmp7704]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Since he's addressing what it's like to be tranquil from personal experience as opposed to making an uninformed remark?

But people who complain how they are slaves to the System also do it from their own personal experience. They genuinely feel this way, even though objectively --without emotions colouring the perception-- this is/can be false.

Modifié par tmp7704, 13 avril 2011 - 06:21 .

[LobselVith8]

RinjiRenee wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Since he's addressing what it's like to be tranquil from personal experience as opposed to making an uninformed remark?

So because it was a personal remark on his own experience as a tranquil, being an actual templar puppet in his case, he was uninformed? 

I was addressing the difference between Karl saying he was a "templar puppet" as a tranquil with Hawke calling the Chantry controlled Circles slavery.

[LobselVith8]

tmp7704 wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Since he's addressing what it's like to be tranquil from personal experience as opposed to making an uninformed remark?

But people who complain how they are slaves to the System also do it from their own personal experience. They genuinely feel this way, even though objectively --without emotions colouring the perception-- this is/can be false.

Except the tranquil handle menial tasks for the templars and the Chantry, and we see from Owain that he would rather clean the storeroom than hide from the abominations infesting the Circle Tower. I don't think we can claim the tranquil simply lack emotion.

[Rinji the Bearded]

LobselVith8 wrote...

RinjiRenee wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Since he's addressing what it's like to be tranquil from personal experience as opposed to making an uninformed remark?

So because it was a personal remark on his own experience as a tranquil, being an actual templar puppet in his case, he was uninformed? 

I was addressing the difference between Karl saying he was a "templar puppet" as a tranquil with Hawke calling the Chantry controlled Circles slavery.

And there is a big difference between the two.

[tmp7704]

LobselVith8 wrote...

and we see from Owain that he would rather clean the storeroom than hide from the abominations infesting the Circle Tower.

Given how you're presenting it in the way that completely ignores all the arguments i made about it the last time, I really don't feel like repeating this particular angle of discussion

[LobselVith8]

RinjiRenee wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

I was addressing the difference between Karl saying he was a "templar puppet" as a tranquil with Hawke calling the Chantry controlled Circles slavery.

And there is a big difference between the two.

I agree completely.

tmp7704 wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

and we see from Owain that he would rather clean the storeroom than hide from the abominations infesting the Circle Tower.

Given how you're presenting it in the way that completely ignores all the arguments i made about it the last time, I really don't feel like repeating this particular angle of discussion

It doesn't change that Owain decided to clean the storeroom rather than concern himself with the abominations who were killing mages left and right.

Modifié par LobselVith8, 13 avril 2011 - 06:33 .

[nos_astra]

LobselVith8 wrote...
Except the tranquil handle menial tasks for the templars and the Chantry, and we see from Owain that he would rather clean the storeroom than hide from the abominations infesting the Circle Tower. I don't think we can claim the tranquil simply lack emotion.

Owain is hiding in the store room. And since he can't do anything irrational like crying, screaming, running in circles, he did something that made sense to him. He cleaned the store room, albeit as quietly as possible.

Why would he be attacking abominations that managed to kill mages?

And where does that come from?

Modifié par klarabella, 13 avril 2011 - 06:37 .

[Rinji the Bearded]

Augh I was being all catty for no reason. The hatred in me is like a poison, and the BSN forums put it there!!

*dramatic exit*

[EmperorSahlertz]

LobselVith8 wrote...

tmp7704 wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Since he's addressing what it's like to be tranquil from personal experience as opposed to making an uninformed remark?

But people who complain how they are slaves to the System also do it from their own personal experience. They genuinely feel this way, even though objectively --without emotions colouring the perception-- this is/can be false.

Except the tranquil handle menial tasks for the templars and the Chantry, and we see from Owain that he would rather clean the storeroom than hide from the abominations infesting the Circle Tower. I don't think we can claim the tranquil simply lack emotion.

Aren't you omitting the part where Owain explains he at first tried to exit the tower, but found a barrier blocking him. When he found no other way to exit, he returned to a place he found familiar. He would prefer not to die, he even tells you, after you talk to him the first time, that he would appreciate if you kept your distance to him, so as not to attract any attention to him.

[tmp7704]

LobselVith8 wrote...

It doesn't change that Owain decided to clean the storeroom rather than concern himself with the abominations who were killing mages left and right.

He is cleaning the storeroom while concerned about the abominations, because he determines it to be the safest --and most practical-- course of action. Which is different from senselessly risking his life out of duty, like the way you choose to portray it would imply.

[stobie]

Maybe Owain decided to clean the storeroom because he'd logically determined there was no way out, nothing he could do about the fighting, and he felt comfortable cleaning? That's not exactly unusual.

[LobselVith8]

klarabella wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...
Except the tranquil handle menial tasks for the templars and the Chantry, and we see from Owain that he would rather clean the storeroom than hide from the abominations infesting the Circle Tower. I don't think we can claim the tranquil simply lack emotion.

Owain is hiding in the store room. And since he can't do anything irrational like crying, screaming, running in circles, he did something that made sense to him. He cleaned the store room, albeit as quietly as possible.

Why would he be attacking abominations that managed to kill mages?

He did something that made sense to him... as opposed to hiding from the abominations you mean?

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Except the tranquil handle menial tasks for the templars and the Chantry, and we see from Owain that he would rather clean the storeroom than hide from the abominations infesting the Circle Tower. I don't think we can claim the tranquil simply lack emotion.

Aren't you omitting the part where Owain explains he at first tried to exit the tower, but found a barrier blocking him. When he found no other way to exit, he returned to a place he found familiar. He would prefer not to die, he even tells you, after you talk to him the first time, that he would appreciate if you kept your distance to him, so as not to attract any attention to him.

Aren't you omitting the fact that he never bothered to let the mages on the other side of a magical barrier know he was on the other side?

[stobie]

He may be without emotions, but he didn't want to endure Wynne's nagging?

[LobselVith8]

tmp7704 wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

It doesn't change that Owain decided to clean the storeroom rather than concern himself with the abominations who were killing mages left and right.

He is cleaning the storeroom while concerned about the abominations, because he determines it to be the safest --and most practical-- course of action. Which is different from senselessly risking his life out of duty, like the way you choose to portray it would imply.

I didn't realize cleaning the storeroom, as opposed to keeping out of sight, was the most practical course of action when abominations are taking over the Circle Tower.

Modifié par LobselVith8, 13 avril 2011 - 07:17 .

[Torax]

Keep in mind that not all who were made Tranquil had it done by force. Tranquility was meant as a mercy instead of killing people who wouldn't survive their harrowing. Some willingly volunteer for it to be done. Owain, the one apprentice you talk to who thought of her magic as a curse. Some mages like Jowain, Karl and Anders look upon being made Tranquil as death of who they are. So give them a situation like Karl is given (Cause he was made Tranquil against his will), by being given a taste of the fade for a second he is lucid long enough. To him he was probably already dead as a Tranquil, but it was not his decision to be so. I think some other Tranquil if given the same option would probably say something like "This is odd." as they wait for the temporary effect to wear off.

[Addai]

stobie wrote...

He may be without emotions, but he didn't want to endure Wynne's nagging?

Heh.  The #1 reason for mages to request Tranquility in the Fereldan tower.

Owain does exhibit a self-preservation instinct and orderly thought, but what he's missing is a sense of urgency about any of it.  He says "I don't want to die" but can't feel the fear for his life that would lead most people to take stronger measures to protect themselves.  It reminds me of leprosy victims, who can't feel pain and so they don't have the same panic buttons about injury.

[EmperorSahlertz]

LobselVith8 wrote...

klarabella wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...
Except the tranquil handle menial tasks for the templars and the Chantry, and we see from Owain that he would rather clean the storeroom than hide from the abominations infesting the Circle Tower. I don't think we can claim the tranquil simply lack emotion.

Owain is hiding in the store room. And since he can't do anything irrational like crying, screaming, running in circles, he did something that made sense to him. He cleaned the store room, albeit as quietly as possible.

Why would he be attacking abominations that managed to kill mages?

He did something that made sense to him... as opposed to hiding from the abominations you mean?

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Except the tranquil handle menial tasks for the templars and the Chantry, and we see from Owain that he would rather clean the storeroom than hide from the abominations infesting the Circle Tower. I don't think we can claim the tranquil simply lack emotion.

Aren't you omitting the part where Owain explains he at first tried to exit the tower, but found a barrier blocking him. When he found no other way to exit, he returned to a place he found familiar. He would prefer not to die, he even tells you, after you talk to him the first time, that he would appreciate if you kept your distance to him, so as not to attract any attention to him.

Aren't you omitting the fact that he never bothered to let the mages on the other side of a magical barrier know he was on the other side?

Nope, if you read my post you can see I actually included the part where he encountered the barrier. And if he couldn't see the mages on the other side, his logic may have told him not to bother contacting them, much less start shouting in a tower full of abominations.

[nos_astra]

LobselVith8 wrote...
He did something that made sense to him... as opposed to hiding from the abominations you mean?

I thought he was hiding? He was just not anxiously cowering behind a crate.

[LobselVith8]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Aren't you omitting the fact that he never bothered to let the mages on the other side of a magical barrier know he was on the other side?

Nope, if you read my post you can see I actually included the part where he encountered the barrier. And if he couldn't see the mages on the other side, his logic may have told him not to bother contacting them, much less start shouting in a tower full of abominations.

Logic should dictate a barrier that can only be errected by a mage means that there are likely mages on the other side of the barrier, which is why Wynne asked why Owain didn't say anything when he saw the barrier.

[Torax]

LobselVith8 wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Aren't you omitting the fact that he never bothered to let the mages on the other side of a magical barrier know he was on the other side?

Nope, if you read my post you can see I actually included the part where he encountered the barrier. And if he couldn't see the mages on the other side, his logic may have told him not to bother contacting them, much less start shouting in a tower full of abominations.

Logic should dictate a barrier that can only be errected by a mage means that there are likely mages on the other side of the barrier, which is why Wynne asked why Owain didn't say anything when he saw the barrier.

Logic to you may dictate something different than the logic of others. Just because you would assume a mage is just on the other side. Obviously both Wynne and Owain could not see each other. One logic would be to make noices like speaking or shouting could draw the attention of the Abominations. They did seem to be rounding up some of the Tranquil if you recall. Wynne's logic would have been for him to say something. Owain's logic could have been what was stated by Emporer. Just because it doesn't match with your's doesn't make it wrong...

editd to add.

Owain wasn't the only one. Don't forget about the non tranquil closet case who didn't want to shout to get through the barrier. Both he and Owain may have also known that getting past that barrior still meant a door was locked well past that.

Modifié par Torax, 13 avril 2011 - 07:28 .

[LobselVith8]

Torax wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Logic should dictate a barrier that can only be errected by a mage means that there are likely mages on the other side of the barrier, which is why Wynne asked why Owain didn't say anything when he saw the barrier.

Logic to you may dictate something different than the logic of others. Just because you would assume a mage is just on the other side.

Owain is a tranquil mage, he would recognize a magical barrier constructed by a mage. It's not like Wynne says otherwise when she asks why he didn't tell her he was on the other side.

Torax wrote...

Obviously both Wynne and Owain could not see each other. One logic would be to make noices like speaking or shouting could draw the attention of the Abominations.

And cleaning the storeroom won't?

Torax wrote...

Owain wasn't the only one. Don't forget about the non tranquil closet case who didn't want to shout to get through the barrier. Both he and Owain may have also known that getting past that barrior still meant a door was locked well past that.

Godwin hid while Owain was cleaning.

[Camenae]

I don't get why, just because Owain did not do what YOU feel was the logical thing, it automatically meant that he is not logical. Maybe Owain just did what HE thought was logical, but you clearly disagree with him. Which is fine, but it doesn't mean Owain wasn't being logical period.