196 réponses à ce sujet

[LobselVith8]

Camenae wrote...

I don't get why, just because Owain did not do what YOU feel was the logical thing, it automatically meant that he is not logical. Maybe Owain just did what HE thought was logical, but you clearly disagree with him. Which is fine, but it doesn't mean Owain wasn't being logical period.

Because when your life is in danger, it isn't logical to be cleaning the storeroom out in the open, it's logical to make certain you don't get killed.

[Rockpopple]

@ Camenae -  Yup.

I mean, he could've just thought he was gonna die, so he'd do something he was used to doing until death came. Look at those Tranquil you save later in the tower, where demons and abominations are actually literally around them. They're like, "Thanks, that was unpleasant." Not hiding, not cowering. They figured, "eh, we're dead", and just stood there about to take it.

Tranquil aren't robots. There's no "universal logic" that they're all programmed to. Owain stocked the storeroom day in day out, so he decided he'd do that if he was dead anyway, since he couldn't escape the Tower.

Modifié par Rockpopple, 13 avril 2011 - 08:04 .

[stobie]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Torax wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Logic should dictate a barrier that can only be errected by a mage means that there are likely mages on the other side of the barrier, which is why Wynne asked why Owain didn't say anything when he saw the barrier.

Logic to you may dictate something different than the logic of others. Just because you would assume a mage is just on the other side.

Owain is a tranquil mage, he would recognize a magical barrier constructed by a mage. It's not like Wynne says otherwise when she asks why he didn't tell her he was on the other side.

Torax wrote...

Obviously both Wynne and Owain could not see each other. One logic would be to make noices like speaking or shouting could draw the attention of the Abominations.

And cleaning the storeroom won't?

Torax wrote...

Owain wasn't the only one. Don't forget about the non tranquil closet case who didn't want to shout to get through the barrier. Both he and Owain may have also known that getting past that barrior still meant a door was locked well past that.

Godwin hid while Owain was cleaning.

Ok, hiding in a wardrobe is *really* that much help against raging abominations?  They don't think to check in the drawers?  Fail, Abominations! Fail!  Owain appeared to be in a safe spot - a spot he knew & felt comfortable in.  I say, 'felt,' but really, it's 'thought himself comfortable, familiar.'  I don't see that Tranquil mages have lost intellect - just the emotion behind intellect - or obscuring it, whichever you prefer.  

Do deeply emotional people honestly feel pain more than very left-brained people? I don't think so.  They react differently - I'm not sure there's anything wrong with this part of it.

[Torax]

We're all governed by emotions in some way. Happyness, fear, sadness and so on. Tranquil don't quite have this. When I was younger my Father used to try to scare me. He'd make loud sounds or jump out at me to see if changed my mood. It wouldn't. Now I am not a Tranquil but point is he thought that was strange. He expected me to be afraid. I didn't act the way he thought I should. I worked against his logic. Owain is a different type of case. He has no defense against abominations. I wager they are not really interested in hunting down all the Tranquil either. It's Templars and Mages the demons feed on cause they have emotions.

If a Tranquil has no fear and basically takes the stance of "I don't see any Abominations". What is to stop them from trying to repair some of the damage in the area. Which was what Owain was doing. It's not our logic but it's apparently his and he was entitled to it.

[stobie]

So basically that scene right after the Fade part is a mistake? (where you see Tranquil being turned into abominations) Or is that akin to the possessed templars?

[LobselVith8]

stobie wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Godwin hid while Owain was cleaning.

Ok, hiding in a wardrobe is *really* that much help against raging abominations?  They don't think to check in the drawers?  Fail, Abominations! Fail!  Owain appeared to be in a safe spot - a spot he knew & felt comfortable in.  I say, 'felt,' but really, it's 'thought himself comfortable, familiar.'  I don't see that Tranquil mages have lost intellect - just the emotion behind intellect - or obscuring it, whichever you prefer.  

I don't know what intellect Owan was using when he decided to clean the storeroom out in the open, and there were blood mages in the other room.

stobie wrote...

So basically that scene right after the Fade part is a mistake? (where you see Tranquil being turned into abominations) Or is that akin to the possessed templars?

The scene is before the Fade. The Rite of Tranquility is supposed to severe the mage's connection from the Fade. However, it doesn't make the tranquil mage any more immune to possession than regular people, animals, trees, and apparently rock wraiths.

Modifié par LobselVith8, 13 avril 2011 - 08:29 .

[Camenae]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Camenae wrote...

I don't get why, just because Owain did not do what YOU feel was the logical thing, it automatically meant that he is not logical. Maybe Owain just did what HE thought was logical, but you clearly disagree with him. Which is fine, but it doesn't mean Owain wasn't being logical period.

Because when your life is in danger, it isn't logical to be cleaning the storeroom out in the open, it's logical to make certain you don't get killed.

Don't you see that you're saying: *I* don't see any possible way that I could view what Owain did as being logical, therefore he was not logical. 

By that line of reasoning, if I disagreed with absolutely every single thing you've ever said, and I really cannot for the life of me understand why you'd possibly say any of the things that you said, then I can automatically assume that you are someone who is incapable of reason?  Because, if *I* can't see any reason for something, then there must BE no reason?

First of all, I don't disagree with absolutely everything you say, BUT even if I did, I would not think that you are simply incapable of reason, because I know that my own private reasoning is not the end-all-be-all yardstick of measuring logic.

[Torax]

stobie wrote...

So basically that scene right after the Fade part is a mistake? (where you see Tranquil being turned into abominations) Or is that akin to the possessed templars?

I didn't see any of the Tranquil being turned into abominations. They were just standing around as an Abomination was casting on them. I assumed using their life force for power or something. I never once saw a Tranquil turned into something else. I doubt it's possible.

[hoorayforicecream]

Why should all tranquil behave the same way? They're not the same people. As we can see, mages can be smart (Quentin), mages can be of average intellect (Alain), or mages can be stupid (Emile). If you snip their emotions, that doesn't somehow normalize their intelligence, or any other qualities about them. Why wouldn't it be entirely possible to have a stupid tranquil, or a tranquil that was tranquilized as a child who never really spent much time learning about abominations? Perhaps Owain believed that hiding would serve little purpose, so he did what seemed most logical.

[Addai]

stobie wrote...
Ok, hiding in a wardrobe is *really* that much help against raging abominations?  They don't think to check in the drawers?  Fail, Abominations! Fail!  Owain appeared to be in a safe spot - a spot he knew & felt comfortable in.  I say, 'felt,' but really, it's 'thought himself comfortable, familiar.'  I don't see that Tranquil mages have lost intellect - just the emotion behind intellect - or obscuring it, whichever you prefer.  

Do deeply emotional people honestly feel pain more than very left-brained people? I don't think so.  They react differently - I'm not sure there's anything wrong with this part of it.

Yeah, I think the key here is that those who felt fear weren't necessarily acting logically, either.

And I've read some interesting research on pain- a lot of it *is* in the emotional response.  Those who react with fear/ panic/ rejection of pain might actually feel more pain than those who don't.

[Addai]

Torax wrote...

stobie wrote...

So basically that scene right after the Fade part is a mistake? (where you see Tranquil being turned into abominations) Or is that akin to the possessed templars?

I didn't see any of the Tranquil being turned into abominations. They were just standing around as an Abomination was casting on them. I assumed using their life force for power or something. I never once saw a Tranquil turned into something else. I doubt it's possible.

I think it's before you get to the sloth demon, in the central area on the 2nd floor- an abomination is tormenting a Tranquil and if you're not quick enough, she becomes an abomination, too.  Or not??

At that point the demons might have run through the good stuff in the pantry and now are nibbling on the stale crackers from the back of the cupboard.  So to speak.

Modifié par Addai67, 13 avril 2011 - 08:32 .

[LobselVith8]

Camenae wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Because when your life is in danger, it isn't logical to be cleaning the storeroom out in the open, it's logical to make certain you don't get killed.

Don't you see that you're saying: *I* don't see any possible way that I could view what Owain did as being logical, therefore he was not logical. 

Because cleaning out in the open when abominations have taken over the Circle Tower isn't logical. I don't see why anyone would think otherwise. If bank robbers took over a bank and you wanted to avoid getting caught or killed, are you going to start cleaning out in the open instead of hiding where you'll be safe from notice? Logically, you hide.

Camenae wrote...

By that line of reasoning, if I disagreed with absolutely every single thing you've ever said, and I really cannot for the life of me understand why you'd possibly say any of the things that you said, then I can automatically assume that you are someone who is incapable of reason?  Because, if *I* can't see any reason for something, then there must BE no reason?

You're comparing philosophical differences with Owain cleaning the storeroom instead of hiding where he would be safe?

[Torax]

hoorayforicecream wrote...

Why should all tranquil behave the same way? They're not the same people. As we can see, mages can be smart (Quentin), mages can be of average intellect (Alain), or mages can be stupid (Emile). If you snip their emotions, that doesn't somehow normalize their intelligence, or any other qualities about them. Why wouldn't it be entirely possible to have a stupid tranquil, or a tranquil that was tranquilized as a child who never really spent much time learning about abominations? Perhaps Owain believed that hiding would serve little purpose, so he did what seemed most logical.

Obviously it can't be logical cause a player who isn't even a Tranquil has decided it isn't logical. Another thing to remember is that many npcs seemed to find the Tranquil odd and scary. Something they just didn't understand. A player is just as unlikely to understand what it would be like void of emotions and left only with reasoning. The average person waking up may have a completely different first thought than others. Why would Tranquil be any different?

[stobie]

Addai67 wrote...

Yeah, I think the key here is that those who felt fear weren't necessarily acting logically, either.

And I've read some interesting research on pain- a lot of it *is* in the emotional response.  Those who react with fear/ panic/ rejection of pain might actually feel more pain than those who don't.

I suppose so - and there's the 'enlightened to the point of being above or apart from pain' angle, too - a spiritual separation that you are not your thoughts or emotions.  But I don't think I'd see the Tranquil as 'forced enlightened.'  

The Tranquil *are* being turned into abominations in that scene. (and I don't remember if it's pre fade or after-fade.)  There are 3 tranquil there.  If you're fast, you can stop it.  If you're not, you see them turn. 

[In Exile]

I wouldn't try to make too much sense of what being a tranquil is like. To put my cognitive neuroscientist (it may well be the most uselessly impressive sounding major out there) cap on, what we use emotions for and what people think we use emotions for is very different.

Take Spock - if he didn't have emotions, his behaviour would actually be highly irrational. Emotions are an important feedback mechanism that regulate a fair amount of what we do because of how they help to filter experience.

A tranquil... welll.. it wouldn't be clear what a person like that might do. Motivations may be emotions... it's complicated.

[Magicman10893]

My understanding of it is that Tranquil have no real drive and just "look" for someone to tell them what to do. Owain was probably assigned to be a shopkeeper, like a lot of other Tranquil it seems. Karl and Meredith's assistant were probably told by the Templars to do that particular work because they have no real desire to do anything else. They may be free to choose what they want, but their lack of emotions probably doesn't give them the desire to do anything in particular.

Karl was probably told that Anders was dangerous and needed to be caught by the Templars, and without emotions he complied because it was logical (Anders is dangerous, that means people could be hurt, dangerous person needs to be stopped) and didn't have any emotions to object to that decision.

When Karl got his emotions back, he realized he didn't want to go back to not having any feelings or drive to do anything and didn't want to go back to servicing the Templars and wanted Anders to kill him. His choice of death was purely emotional, like pretty much all suicide.

People that commit suicide do it because they feel all these negative emotions and want to get away from it. Their emotions cloud their logic and that is why they go through with it. If their emotions weren't in the way of their judgement, they would realize that things will eventually get better and what they feel at that moment won't last forever.

[stobie]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Camenae wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Because when your life is in danger, it isn't logical to be cleaning the storeroom out in the open, it's logical to make certain you don't get killed.

Don't you see that you're saying: *I* don't see any possible way that I could view what Owain did as being logical, therefore he was not logical. 

Because cleaning out in the open when abominations have taken over the Circle Tower isn't logical. I don't see why anyone would think otherwise. If bank robbers took over a bank and you wanted to avoid getting caught or killed, are you going to start cleaning out in the open instead of hiding where you'll be safe from notice? Logically, you hide.

Camenae wrote...

By that line of reasoning, if I disagreed with absolutely every single thing you've ever said, and I really cannot for the life of me understand why you'd possibly say any of the things that you said, then I can automatically assume that you are someone who is incapable of reason?  Because, if *I* can't see any reason for something, then there must BE no reason?

You're comparing philosophical differences with Owain cleaning the storeroom instead of hiding where he would be safe?

Or logically, you think, 'there's nothing I can do about this now, so I might as well tidy up?  Also, this overlooks the current reality for Owain, which is that he *isn't* besieged by abominations and he *isn't* their main target.  He's just as safe as the jittery guy in the closet.  He's realized the situation, and is reacting unemotionally to it.  Maybe he's thinking, 'well, if we do get through this, it's going to be a hell of a mess. Might as well get started. And it's better than sitting around with Wynne..."

[Mnemnosyne]

Addai67 wrote...

I think it's before you get to the sloth demon, in the central area on the 2nd floor- an abomination is tormenting a Tranquil and if you're not quick enough, she becomes an abomination, too.  Or not??

At that point the demons might have run through the good stuff in the pantry and now are nibbling on the stale crackers from the back of the cupboard.  So to speak.

Yeesh, this comes up so often.  They're not abominations that appear, it's shades.  It is most likely the abomination is using the life/blood of the tranquils to summon shades, but at no time do the tranquils actually transform into abominations.

[stobie]

Ah! Well, that makes sense, then! Maybe it just kills them & summons a shade?

[Torax]

Koyasha wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

I think it's before you get to the sloth demon, in the central area on the 2nd floor- an abomination is tormenting a Tranquil and if you're not quick enough, she becomes an abomination, too.  Or not??

At that point the demons might have run through the good stuff in the pantry and now are nibbling on the stale crackers from the back of the cupboard.  So to speak.

Yeesh, this comes up so often.  They're not abominations that appear, it's shades.  It is most likely the abomination is using the life/blood of the tranquils to summon shades, but at no time do the tranquils actually transform into abominations.

Yes that. In that entire fight the only abomination I ever remember seeing is the boss of them all. It's just a bunch of shades and skeletons.

[tmp7704]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Godwin hid while Owain was cleaning.

Owain was cleaning while hiding in the storeroom. Godwin was without doubt doing something while hiding in his closet, too. Does doing that 'whatever' make Godwin somehow not hiding?

Note that neither Godwin nor Owain get found by the abominations/blood mages so as far as we can tell both their hiding places turn out equally effective.

Modifié par tmp7704, 13 avril 2011 - 10:53 .

[LobselVith8]

tmp7704 wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Godwin hid while Owain was cleaning.

Owain was cleaning while hiding in the storeroom. Godwin was without doubt doing something while hiding in his closet, too. Does doing that 'whatever' make Godwin somehow not hiding?

Note that neither Godwin nor Owain get found by the abominations/blood mages so as far as we can tell both their hiding places turn out equally effective.

If Owain is out in the open cleaning, then he's not hiding like Godwin was.

[tmp7704]

LobselVith8 wrote...

If Owain is out in the open cleaning, then he's not hiding like Godwin was.

You make it sound like Owain is dancing down the halls swinging broom left and right, whistling merry tune as he goes.

He's "out in the open" in secluded room. Godwin is "out in the open" in a closet which is just smaller space but otherwise equally unprotected. And they both hide well enough so they don't get found by these they're hiding from.

[EmperorSahlertz]

The four Tranquil in the tower being tortured by an abomination, dont get turned into abominations. Play the scene again. Their lifeforce is used to summon Shades.

[LobselVith8]

tmp7704 wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

If Owain is out in the open cleaning, then he's not hiding like Godwin was.

You make it sound like Owain is dancing down the halls swinging broom left and right, whistling merry tune as he goes.

He's "out in the open" in secluded room. Godwin is "out in the open" in a closet which is just smaller space but otherwise equally unprotected. And they both hide well enough so they don't get found by these they're hiding from.

The difference is Godwin is trying to keep quiet about his presence and Owain is actively cleaning - which involves noise - instead of keeping himself hidden from any mage rebels or abominations.