196 réponses à ce sujet

[Addai]

Koyasha wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

I think it's before you get to the sloth demon, in the central area on the 2nd floor- an abomination is tormenting a Tranquil and if you're not quick enough, she becomes an abomination, too.  Or not??

At that point the demons might have run through the good stuff in the pantry and now are nibbling on the stale crackers from the back of the cupboard.  So to speak.

Yeesh, this comes up so often.  They're not abominations that appear, it's shades.  It is most likely the abomination is using the life/blood of the tranquils to summon shades, but at no time do the tranquils actually transform into abominations.

Touchy.    But thanks for the correction.

[Torax]

LobselVith8 wrote...

tmp7704 wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

If Owain is out in the open cleaning, then he's not hiding like Godwin was.

You make it sound like Owain is dancing down the halls swinging broom left and right, whistling merry tune as he goes.

He's "out in the open" in secluded room. Godwin is "out in the open" in a closet which is just smaller space but otherwise equally unprotected. And they both hide well enough so they don't get found by these they're hiding from.

The difference is Godwin is trying to keep quiet about his presence and Owain is actively cleaning - which involves noise - instead of keeping himself hidden from any mage rebels or abominations.

I wasn't hearing a bunch of racket that anyone was even over there. I didn't even see him through the gating until it did the Cinematic. I doubt he was making a lot of noise. The Tranquil don't seem like a loud kinds of people. Infact they even tended to speak softly and quietly in tone. I doubt he would have been noticed by most unless they were looking for him in particular. The Blood Mages that were left on that floor seemed pre-occupied. It's not like Tranquil are a threat to them anyway. I think you instead are reading far into Owain's situation than is necessary. Like an argument to simply argue. Take Owain at his word and move on.

Modifié par Torax, 13 avril 2011 - 11:26 .

[LobselVith8]

Torax wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

The difference is Godwin is trying to keep quiet about his presence and Owain is actively cleaning - which involves noise - instead of keeping himself hidden from any mage rebels or abominations.

I wasn't hearing a bunch of racket that anyone was even over there. I didn't even see him through the gating until it did the Cinematic. I doubt he was making a lot of noise. The Tranquil don't seem like a loud kinds of people. Infact they even tended to speak softly and quietly in tone. I doubt he would have been noticed by most unless they were looking for him in particular. The Blood Mages that were left on that floor seemed pre-occupied. It's not like Tranquil are a threat to them anyway. I think you instead are reading far into Owain's situation than is necessary. Like an argument to simply argue. Take Owain at his word and move on.

If he's cleaning the storeroom, it isn't going to be silent. He's out in the open in the middle of the room instead of keeping out of sight from the blood mages in the other room. I don't see his actions as sensible or logical.

[tmp7704]

LobselVith8 wrote...

The difference is Godwin is trying to keep quiet about his presence and Owain is actively cleaning - which involves noise - instead of keeping himself hidden from any mage rebels or abominations.

Technically when you speak to him and ask what he's doing, he says:

Owain: I was trying to tidy up, but there was little I could do.

that implies both he wasn't doing much cleaning there in the first place and that he isn't cleaning anymore when you find him. He's just hiding at this point.

[Torax]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Torax wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

The difference is Godwin is trying to keep quiet about his presence and Owain is actively cleaning - which involves noise - instead of keeping himself hidden from any mage rebels or abominations.

I wasn't hearing a bunch of racket that anyone was even over there. I didn't even see him through the gating until it did the Cinematic. I doubt he was making a lot of noise. The Tranquil don't seem like a loud kinds of people. Infact they even tended to speak softly and quietly in tone. I doubt he would have been noticed by most unless they were looking for him in particular. The Blood Mages that were left on that floor seemed pre-occupied. It's not like Tranquil are a threat to them anyway. I think you instead are reading far into Owain's situation than is necessary. Like an argument to simply argue. Take Owain at his word and move on.

If he's cleaning the storeroom, it isn't going to be silent. He's out in the open in the middle of the room instead of keeping out of sight from the blood mages in the other room. I don't see his actions as sensible or logical.

You do realize you've been assuming what he is doing the entire time right? You also assume he has no logic simply because YOU do not agree with his logic. Implications on your part of what a Tranquil is like without being one yourself. I understand you not liking the idea of Tranquils on some level. But Owain didn't appear to be one by force. He liked being Tranquil. So move on and go talk about Karl or someone else. Leave Owain to what he wanted to do. It's not like he was a prisoner to Blood Mages or Abominations at that point. So I doubt he was as obvious to be found like you try to imply he was. I want to tell you to get over it, but then you'd tweak it to me trying to order you to do something. Maybe eventually you will move on. I just doubt it.

[hoorayforicecream]

[spam image removed]

Modifié par Stanley Woo, 14 avril 2011 - 01:38 .

[LobselVith8]

tmp7704 wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

The difference is Godwin is trying to keep quiet about his presence and Owain is actively cleaning - which involves noise - instead of keeping himself hidden from any mage rebels or abominations.

Technically when you speak to him and ask what he's doing, he says:

Owain: I was trying to tidy up, but there was little I could do.

that implies both he wasn't doing much cleaning there in the first place and that he isn't cleaning anymore when you find him. He's just hiding at this point.

He's hiding... by standing in the middle of the room?

[Torax]

LobselVith8 wrote...

tmp7704 wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

The difference is Godwin is trying to keep quiet about his presence and Owain is actively cleaning - which involves noise - instead of keeping himself hidden from any mage rebels or abominations.

Technically when you speak to him and ask what he's doing, he says:

Owain: I was trying to tidy up, but there was little I could do.

that implies both he wasn't doing much cleaning there in the first place and that he isn't cleaning anymore when you find him. He's just hiding at this point.

He's hiding... by standing in the middle of the room?

If he heard fighting and then saw Wynne walking into the room would he maybe get out of hiding?

[LobselVith8]

Torax wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

If he's cleaning the storeroom, it isn't going to be silent. He's out in the open in the middle of the room instead of keeping out of sight from the blood mages in the other room. I don't see his actions as sensible or logical.

You do realize you've been assuming what he is doing the entire time right?

By assuming, you mean I addressed what he explicitly said?

Torax wrote...

You also assume he has no logic simply because YOU do not agree with his logic.

What I stated is that I don't find cleaning a storeroom when there are abominations taking over the Circle Tower to be logical.

Torax wrote...

So move on and go talk about Karl or someone else.

You need to stop trying to police every thread you post at.

[Torax]

Let me ask you this Lob. What is your goal with all of this. You keep arguing about a character that was NOT caught by Abominations or blood mages. Saying how he was going to get CAUGHT when he was not. That his logic was flawed. He didn't see Wynne across the door and neither did she see him. So yelling for what may or may not be on the other side could be suicide. He goes back to tidy up. Which if you are doing it by hand is extremely quiet. Picking up a little bit of dirt and put it down in more of a pile is very quiet. You may not agree but it doesn't change the fact that he was NOT caught.

You say I'm trying to police? I'm just wonder what you keep posting about the character for without adding to it. Assuming and filling in holes of your mind as if fact to simply argue that a Tranquil is wrong or flawed? Is it a hate of Tranquils that fuels this? Owain obviously wasn't stupid or he would have been caught long before you got there. Something you should maybe consider before you try to look at him as strictly a negative.

[p95h]

The whole point of this thread, for those who have wandered beyond into realms unknown, is that Tranquil from DAO are much different that tranquil from DA2. It is a change that I did not like to see, and I hope from all the comments, that the developers realize they fubar'd the tranquil in DA2 as they were originally conceived in DAO.

[tmp7704]

LobselVith8 wrote...

He's hiding... by standing in the middle of the room?

Yes. He wasn't found by either demons or the blood mages so it appears effective enough.

[TEWR]

tmp7704 wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

He's hiding... by standing in the middle of the room?

Yes. He wasn't found by either demons or the blood mages so it appears effective enough.

I guess if you stand very, very still blood mages, abominations, and demons will just think you're a statue and pass you over.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 14 avril 2011 - 12:57 .

[tmp7704]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

I guess if you stand very, very still blood mages, abominations, and demons will just think you're a statue and pass you over.

Heh. Realistically, i'd say it's simply because the storeroom is supposed to be both filled with shelves/items and be in state of major mess -- as such it'd be faily easy to remain out of view in one. But the game has this area mostly empty making whoever happens to be inside stick out like sore thumb.

[Mnemnosyne]

p95h wrote...

The whole point of this thread, for those who have wandered beyond into realms unknown, is that Tranquil from DAO are much different that tranquil from DA2. It is a change that I did not like to see, and I hope from all the comments, that the developers realize they fubar'd the tranquil in DA2 as they were originally conceived in DAO.

Yes, it really does seem that they are significantly different.  There are plausible explanations that could cover this without it being a retcon, such as conditions in the Kirkwall Circle being considerably different, however.  The templars being more authoritative, threatening them, giving them no recourse to report their misbehavior, etc.  Meredith does not seem to care, and Elthina refuses to use her authority, so even if the tranquil were inclined to report the behavior of the templars, they have no one to report it to who is willing to take action.  Their only recourse then, is to accept the conditions they are in.

I would have liked to see those explanations explored further in-game however, rather than leaving us to speculate on why these tranquil seem so different than those we previously met.  I also think that the voice acting for these tranquil was strangely different, and I wonder why that was, whether it was intentional or an error/oversight on the part of the voice actors or director.  Every tranquil in DA:O had that very distinctive even voicing, while the ones in DA2 seem to vary significantly.  The first time I heard Karl speak when it was revealed he was tranquil, my initial thought was: He doesn't sound like a tranquil.  The same applied to several other tranquil throughout the game, including Elsa (I think that's her name, Meredith's assistant) near the end.

[Torax]

I think the only one that sounded more like an Origins Tranquil is the one at the mage vendor next to the potions guy in the Gallows.

[TEWR]

Koyasha wrote...

p95h wrote...

The whole point of this thread, for those who have wandered beyond into realms unknown, is that Tranquil from DAO are much different that tranquil from DA2. It is a change that I did not like to see, and I hope from all the comments, that the developers realize they fubar'd the tranquil in DA2 as they were originally conceived in DAO.

Yes, it really does seem that they are significantly different.  There are plausible explanations that could cover this without it being a retcon, such as conditions in the Kirkwall Circle being considerably different, however.  The templars being more authoritative, threatening them, giving them no recourse to report their misbehavior, etc.  Meredith does not seem to care, and Elthina refuses to use her authority, so even if the tranquil were inclined to report the behavior of the templars, they have no one to report it to who is willing to take action.  Their only recourse then, is to accept the conditions they are in.

I would have liked to see those explanations explored further in-game however, rather than leaving us to speculate on why these tranquil seem so different than those we previously met.  I also think that the voice acting for these tranquil was strangely different, and I wonder why that was, whether it was intentional or an error/oversight on the part of the voice actors or director.  Every tranquil in DA:O had that very distinctive even voicing, while the ones in DA2 seem to vary significantly.  The first time I heard Karl speak when it was revealed he was tranquil, my initial thought was: He doesn't sound like a tranquil.  The same applied to several other tranquil throughout the game, including Elsa (I think that's her name, Meredith's assistant) near the end.

Well, when I first heard Karl he sounded Tranquil to me. His voice just sounded unnatural for a human being, but sounded very, well, tranquil.

[stobie]

I thought what they did with the Tranquil was a little like what they did with the elves - they polished them and made them a little more defined. That wouldn't be my idea of a retcon. It's just an ongoing story, & since it's evolving with games, that is a visible edit. If it was a single book, you might go back & tweak the Tranquil - but you can't, so you put forth a slightly different scenario. (Maybe. I'm not convinced they're all that different - you were just seeing Tranquil in a freer, more positive environment in Ferelden.)

Getting mad because the story evolves & the writers didn't know the future seems futile & doesn't allow for fluidity in creation.

[Ymladdych]

LobselVith8 wrote...
*snip*
What I stated is that I don't find cleaning a storeroom when there are abominations taking over the Circle Tower to be logical.
*/snip*

In RL, people with the equivalent of "Tranquil" syndrome can take hours trying to decide what day of the week they want to schedule an appointment.

Does that sound logical to you?  It sure doesn't to me, but it's a consequence of logic only going so far in human decision-making, even when "emotions" wouldn't seem to play a part.  Knowing that abominations are dangerous is one thing, but if you're not getting a fear response from thinking about them (even on a subconscious level), and there's nothing else for you to do...cleaning the storeroom during a blood mage attack might seem like a good idea.

The Iowa gambling task shows that lack of emotional input makes it impossible for such individuals to learn from the consequences of bad decisions.  I won't go into details, but suffice it to say that such individuals will continuously pull from a stacked, losing deck, whereas normal people observe the risk almost right away and move towards playing from the "safe" deck.  The normals usually don't even know why they prefer the "safe" deck; it's on a completely subsconscious level.  In fact, the emotional regions of the brain tend to zap their input into your prefrontal cortex before you even realize that a decision needs to be made.

Once you realize that emotionless human beings tend to do extremely illogical things because they have no emotional input, then yes, it makes sense that they would be easy victims for abuse and exploitation.  The only reason we don't see it in DAO is because there was no abuse going on. 

So no, I really don't see the retcon factor here.

[GenericPlayer2]

Arlik says quite clearly that Ella will do whatever he wants when he's done making her tranquil. In other examples its quite clear that the tranquil are being used as slave labor in DA2.

I don't know if its a retconn, but its a definite change from what has been said in DAO. I don't know if this reflects a change in what tranquilizing does, or if its a change in the fact that the Templars are a much more powerful institution in Kirkwall.

Personally, I don't understand why any tranquil don't *logically* choose to leave the circle. Its never been made clear that they are free to leave since they are no longer capable of magic. Every single tranquil we see obeys the Templars and stays with them, so I really doubt that they are capable of free will.

[TEWR]

GenericPlayer2 wrote...

Arlik says quite clearly that Ella will do whatever he wants when he's done making her tranquil. In other examples its quite clear that the tranquil are being used as slave labor in DA2.

I don't know if its a retconn, but its a definite change from what has been said in DAO. I don't know if this reflects a change in what tranquilizing does, or if its a change in the fact that the Templars are a much more powerful institution in Kirkwall.

Personally, I don't understand why any tranquil don't *logically* choose to leave the circle. Its never been made clear that they are free to leave since they are no longer capable of magic. Every single tranquil we see obeys the Templars and stays with them, so I really doubt that they are capable of free will.

I don't know if they'd do everything since the only evidence we have of this is one unstable Templar and isn't concrete enough proof, but they're definitely easier to influence because their emotions have been severed. I guess they're more puppets. It's almost like the Right of Tranquility makes them a homonculus, so to speak.

But people need to take into account that while they probably can leave the Circles, their best skill after being made Tranquil (enchanting) is best served inside the Circle than anywhere else (aside from Dwarven thaigs).  Plus, would citizens of Thedas treat the Tranquil with respect and dignity? I'm not saying they would or wouldn't. Also, if their emotions and dreams have been severed, does that mean their free will is nonexistent as well? I'm not really sure if that's the case, but if so, then that explains why they don't leave.

[Blood-Lord Thanatos]

I don't think Godwin was a tranquil. He sounded more like a true mage.

[atheelogos]

David Gaider wrote...

Wulfram wrote...
Is the brand a necessary part of the process, or just something they do so you can recognise them?

It's part of the rite, the lyrium being what severs the link to the Fade.

So if one were to cut off the brand off could that fix them?

[Mnemnosyne]

Another point which I really should have considered earlier but somehow I didn't really think too much about, is that it's entirely possible Ser Alrik was intentionally lying, not mistaken or any other possibility. Anders points out how he's sadistic and likes to torment mages, and he's clearly a jackass of the highest order, so it is entirely possible he's saying what he did just to torment Ella. She's an apprentice, and from our experience in Origins it's clear that apprentices don't know a heck of a lot about the tranquil, so she would believe what he says even if it's untrue.

Another tranquil does state that only Ser Cullen can command her, I believe, but that doesn't necessarily mean he can command her to do anything - it could just as easily mean that she only needs to take orders from Cullen, and she doesn't need to follow anyone else's orders. I say 'need to follow orders' in the sense of that being her job, not that she's forced to follow Cullen's orders.

I think, and I'm at fault for this also, that in some cases we're interpreting things in the worst possible manner rather than looking for other reasonable explanations for their words and behavior. The presentation somewhat encourages that interpretation, but that in itself, is an interesting point in how our view of things can skew our perspective.

[LobselVith8]

Blood-Lord Thanatos wrote...

I don't think Godwin was a tranquil. He sounded more like a true mage.

He wasn't tranquil. He was dealing lyrium to the templars (like Carroll) with his connection in Orzammar.

Regardless of the consensus on the Rite of Tranquility, it's fortunate that Ella doesn't suffer the same fate Alain does.