196 réponses à ce sujet

[Wulfram]

Tranquils seem to be made extreme Lawful Neutral, as far as I can see.

[TEWR]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Blood-Lord Thanatos wrote...

I don't think Godwin was a tranquil. He sounded more like a true mage.

He wasn't tranquil. He was dealing lyrium to the templars (like Carroll) with his connection in Orzammar.

Regardless of the consensus on the Rite of Tranquility, it's fortunate that Ella doesn't suffer the same fate Alain does.

wait what? Alain's never made Tranquil. At least not if you ask Cullen to go easy on him. I don't know if he's made Tranquil if you **** him over.

[Boiny Bunny]

My view:

In DA:O I felt the tranquil were intellgent beings undisturbed by emotions, and devoted to their position/jobs.

In DA2, I felt like the tranquil were mentally disabled - only a step or so above Sandal.

[LobselVith8]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

wait what? Alain's never made Tranquil. At least not if you ask Cullen to go easy on him. I don't know if he's made Tranquil if you **** him over.

I meant Alain's confession about being raped, which Ella was threatened with until Hawke rescues her.

[TEWR]

LobselVith8 wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

wait what? Alain's never made Tranquil. At least not if you ask Cullen to go easy on him. I don't know if he's made Tranquil if you **** him over.

I meant Alain's confession about being raped, which Ella was threatened with until Hawke rescues her.

oh. oops.


This never happened

[TobiTobsen]

LobselVith8 wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

wait what? Alain's never made Tranquil. At least not if you ask Cullen to go easy on him. I don't know if he's made Tranquil if you **** him over.

I meant Alain's confession about being raped, which Ella was threatened with until Hawke rescues her.

Alrik and Karras both needed to Murder Knife. I mean... just look at those two. They couldn't look more obviously evil, even with EVIL branded to their foreheads. I think even without the knowledge what pricks those two are I would have murdered them.

Alriks eyes... and Karras beard...  *pulls the murder knife*

[Plaintiff]

I'm not seeing any continuity issues here. Tranquil do not seem very bright. Owain's logic was extremely flawed in DA:O when he opted to return to the storeroom. In the face of certain death, he returned to the storeroom. Why? Because running the storeroom is his job and with the lack of further instruction he defaults to his prime directive.

Karl wasn't under "mind-control". With his emotions gone, he was incapable of judging the situation from the perspective of a normal human being. With his feelings for Anders gone, he has no reason to disobey the templars. He'd do whatever he was told.

Also, nowhere does he state that Anders is an abomination. His words are "here is the apostate". Neither he nor the templars know that Anders is joined with Justice, and with his connection to the Fade severed, he has no way of detecting demons or spirits that we know of.

[atheelogos]

Wulfram wrote...

Tranquils seem to be made extreme Lawful Neutral, as far as I can see.

It doesn't really matter what they end up as. It's wrong to force that on someone period.....

[Superloganprime1]

Doesn't being tranquil make a mage kinda sociopathic towards others. Wouldn't they have no qualms to kill a person if they're told to do so?  

[Plaintiff]

p95h wrote...
In DA2, somehow this makes Tranquil susceptible to Templar control. WTF?!?!?

Tranquil always followed instructions from authority figures without question. They will obey a senior mage, or a templar of any rank, because all templars rank higher than mages, with the possible exception of First Enchanters and above.

The tranquil in DAO still were able to reason logically (Owain comes to mind)

No they weren't. Owain is entirely lacking in the critical faculties required to save his own life. Wynne asks him "Why didn't you call out? I would've lowered the barrier for you."

Owain did not call out because, without instructions, he defaults to his standing orders: cleaning the storeroom.

Tranquil are not mind control susceptible. If anything, they are less so because they have the clarity of thought that is unclouded by emotional stresses.

Wrong. It is impossible to think critically without emotion.

When a mage loses their ability to love or care for another human being, they see no reason to refrain from hurting them. When a mage loses their ability to hate and fear a templar that tormented them, they see no reason to disobey them when they demand sexual gratification.

This is one aspect of DA2 with which I am deeply perturbed.

Sorry, but you're objectively wrong to feel that way. It is not a retcon. Tranquil are not susceptible to mind-control. The templars do not use mind-control, they do not need to. Tranquil don't have a mind to control.

[GodWood]

You do realise you're responding to a year old post. A year old post that you already responded to, a year ago.

Furthermore...

Plaintiff wrote...
Wrong. It is impossible to think critically without emotion.

This is false. Critical thinking is merely using reasoning to question asumptions. Now unless you consider logic or skepticism emotions, emotions are not necessary for critical thinking.

[Plaintiff]

GodWood wrote...

You do realise you're responding to a year old post. A year old post that you already responded to, a year ago.

Furthermore...

Plaintiff wrote...
Wrong. It is impossible to think critically without emotion.

This is false. Critical thinking is merely using reasoning to question asumptions. Now unless you consider logic or skepticism emotions, emotions are not necessary for critical thinking.

I did actually realise, after the fact.

Excuse me for not keeping an exhaustive catalogue of my activity on every internet forum for the past several years, I didn't mean to offend your pedantic sensibilities.

Doubt is an emotion.

Modifié par Plaintiff, 22 mai 2012 - 09:44 .

[Ice-Whiz]

GodWood wrote...

You do realise you're responding to a year old post. A year old post that you already responded to, a year ago.

Furthermore...

Plaintiff wrote...
Wrong. It is impossible to think critically without emotion.

This is false. Critical thinking is merely using reasoning to question asumptions. Now unless you consider logic or skepticism emotions, emotions are not necessary for critical thinking.

But motivation is necessary and motivation normally stems from emotions regarding a topic. For tranquil there is no other motivation than that they were told to. For a computer or robot, motivation is in the programming, for tranquil it is in the order given and as such if they are ordered to think critically about something they will, otherwise they have no reason to.

[GodWood]

Plaintiff wrote...
Excuse me for not keeping an exhaustive catalogue of my activity on every internet forum for the past several years, I didn't mean to offend your pedantic sensibilities.

It was only 3 posts above.

Doubt is an emotion.

Doubt can characterise an emotional state but it is not in of itself an emotion.

Ice-Whiz wrote...
But motivation is necessary and motivation normally stems from emotions regarding a topic. For tranquil there is no other motivation than that they were told to.

There we go, tranquil have motivation. 

For a computer or robot, motivation is in the programming, for tranquil it is in the order given and as such if they are ordered to think critically about something they will, otherwise they have no reason to.

And yet they'd still have the capacity to do so even without emotions thus emotions are not necessary.

Modifié par GodWood, 22 mai 2012 - 10:21 .

[Ice-Whiz]

I'm not saying emotions are necessary, but a tranquil will never think critically of his/her own accord. Normally, humans have an inner motivation that stems from emotions, and that is what makes us think critically about certain topics, however, a tranquil is severed from that inner push and so will only do so when commanded and only based on information and parameters given from the one who commands.
That is probably also why a lot of people would not call it critical thinking but rather logical reasoning, because they reach a conclusion based on information and parameters not on their own beliefs and questionings.

Modifié par Ice-Whiz, 22 mai 2012 - 11:15 .

[Karlone123]

Not really, tranquil still seem to be devoid of feelings other then "peace" and unable to use magic and still enchant things.

[Plaintiff]

GodWood wrote...
It was only 3 posts above.

So ****ing what? I read the first post, and then I reply to it. I'm not going to read through an entire thread to see if I already passed by it years ago. Why the hell should I?

This thread is just lucky.

Doubt can characterise an emotional state but it is not in of itself an emotion.

According to who, exactly?

[hitenchi]

I was sure that anders technically wasn't abomination since he willingly let the spirit into his body, and he still maintains some semblance of control over his body, also even if he can be classified as an abomination he is by no means what you would usually expect, and him carrying part of the fade with him makes sense since thats the reason why justice can survive in his body.

[Gervaise]

Some of these points were clarified in the novel Asunder.
Tranquil do possess freewill to decide not to do something they have previously been ordered to do if they are offered a sufficiently good reason to do so. "Obedience is prudent (logical)" I would assume that following the orders of an armed templar if you know they are in close proximity would fall into that category. Whereas if you have been left unattended while the templar goes in search of someone and that person happens by, the tranquil might elect to ignore them on the grounds it is not their job to apprehend them and to do so might place them at risk.

Whether or not you consider Anders an abomination is down to your beliefs about chantry law and spirits/demons. Most people raised in the Chantry/Circle would tend to view him as such. In Asunder Rhys is disturbed to discover that Wynne is inhabited by a spirit and thinks of her as an abomination at least until he has had a chance to discuss the matter with her. And Adrian, despite her revolutionary sentiments, definitely says to him "I think Wynne is an abomination", purely on the basis that she is inhabited by a spirit.
The whole point is that owing to Chantry control over magic, no one has sufficiently studied the business of the relationship of spirits and demons with mages. In Rivain their wise women apparently allow themselves to be deliberately possessed - however this could well be a relationship more akin to that enjoyed by Wynne (and beneficial). It is hard to imagine they would have such popular support is their were regularly ripping people's heads off.

[Josielyn]

Thank you for this thread! I would love to see more about this in the DA3 discussions.

[Qyla]

Thank you Mr.Gaider

[Lotion Soronarr]

Plaintiff wrote...
Tranquil always followed instructions from authority figures without question. They will obey a senior mage, or a templar of any rank, because all templars rank higher than mages, with the possible exception of First Enchanters and above.

Didn't DG prove you wrong on that one on the first page?