71 réponses à ce sujet

[Mnemnosyne]

I don't know...normally we accept that if a person declares their wishes then succumbs to a reduced mental capacity, their wishes when they were at full capacity are what counts.

[Sarielle]

Asdara wrote...

Then again, so he wants to die? There are plenty of ways to get dead in Thedas, does it have to be us and the murder knife every time?

I lol'd for real over this.

[Xewaka]

Asdara wrote...
Getting into a murky area there, but the argument could be made that Karl wasn't thinking clearly in his first "reunited with himself" moment. leaving us with a "he might have wanted to die" situation rather than a concrete sureness in his wish for death. Then again, so he wants to die? There are plenty of ways to get dead in Thedas, does it have to be us and the murder knife every time?

The murder knife thrists. It is unquenchable. I emphasize with italics.

[Miashi]

Hawke: Don't kill him!
*Anders takes his murder knife out*
*renegade interrupt*
*Shepard shoots Anders*
Shepard: "How about, you die?"
edit:
Hawke: WTF dude you killed my healer!
Shepard: I saved your tranquil and now you're judging me?

Modifié par Miashi, 13 avril 2011 - 09:51 .

[_Aine_]

Miashi wrote...

Hawke: Don't kill him!
*Anders takes his murder knife out*
*renegade interrupt*
*Shepard shoots Anders*
Shepard: "How about, you die?"
edit:
Hawke: WTF dude you killed my healer!
Shepard: I saved your tranquil and now you're judging me?

LOL.  
ah lawdy, make it a mod.  And the world... she will kiss you.  Twice, at least.    

[Paeyne]

Be funny if that brief connection to the fade fluctuated.

"Anders please kill me now. This is horrible."
"Please put that knife away Anders. Its dangerous."
"Why are you putting that knife away Anders! I want to die!"
"You should really put that knife away Anders."

I might kill him out of total frustration.

[Girl on a Rock]

The Angry One wrote...

The question is, did tranquil Karl want to die?
If he didn't, then it is in fact murder.

The argument could be made that tranquil Karl is unfit to make that decision, given the wishes of original!Karl.

[Girl on a Rock]

Miashi wrote...

Hawke: Don't kill him!
*Anders takes his murder knife out*
*renegade interrupt*
*Shepard shoots Anders*
Shepard: "How about, you die?"
edit:
Hawke: WTF dude you killed my healer!
Shepard: I saved your tranquil and now you're judging me?

Bahahahaha, perfect!

[Girl on a Rock]

Koyasha wrote...

I don't know...normally we accept that if a person declares their wishes then succumbs to a reduced mental capacity, their wishes when they were at full capacity are what counts.

This.

[stobie]

The Qunari mage does himself in with magic - they really are a more logical bunch than the rest. Karl could have immolated himself, & I think I'd rather be lightning-blasted than *stabbed.* But dead is dead, I guess.

[Alamar2078]

stobie wrote...

The Qunari mage does himself in with magic - they really are a more logical bunch than the rest. Karl could have immolated himself, & I think I'd rather be lightning-blasted than *stabbed.* But dead is dead, I guess.

Perhaps Karl didn't have enough of a connection to the fade to spell-zap himself.  He had just enough of a connection to realize who he was but not enough to magically do something about it.

Note:  Why he couldn't have suicided [with a knife or similar] instead of requesting assistance I'm not sure ....

[Saephy]

According to the Chantry, suicide is a sin and major boo-boo.
Not sure if Karl was an Andrastian or not, and therefore cares or not, but might be something.

[Alamar2078]

Saephy wrote...

According to the Chantry, suicide is a sin and major boo-boo.
Not sure if Karl was an Andrastian or not, and therefore cares or not, but might be something.

I'm not sure if "the Maker" is a rules lawyer or not but wouldn't asking to be killed by someone be just as bad as suiciding directly?   I'm sure it can be argued but the two things are almost identical to me.

[Camenae]

Since I romanced Anders, I thought things had come full circle since he killed his lover and I had to kill mine.

[Mnemnosyne]

I presume Karl didn't have a knife. Why would he?

I've never seen a comment on suicide being a sin in Chantry traditions. Not that I seriously doubt it, but do you know where exactly that's stated?

[Phantom13NWN2]

The Angry One wrote...

The question is, did tranquil Karl want to die?
If he didn't, then it is in fact murder.

Maker... A tranquil has no fear, no desire, no dreams, no ambitions. He doesnt care if he lives, he doesnt care if he dies. Thats what horrible about it, you are nothing... You just exist, its just empty. When Justice brought back his emotions for a moment he said he wanted to die. Because its just a horrible existence.

[Rifneno]

Xewaka wrote...

Asdara wrote...
Getting into a murky area there, but the argument could be made that Karl wasn't thinking clearly in his first "reunited with himself" moment. leaving us with a "he might have wanted to die" situation rather than a concrete sureness in his wish for death. Then again, so he wants to die? There are plenty of ways to get dead in Thedas, does it have to be us and the murder knife every time?

The murder knife thrists. It is unquenchable. I emphasize with italics.

So, the murder knife is from the same vein as the lyrium idol.

stobie wrote...

The Qunari mage does himself in with magic - they really are a more logical bunch than the rest. Karl could have immolated himself, & I think I'd rather be lightning-blasted than *stabbed.* But dead is dead, I guess.

Qunari can only do it because they didn't update the patch that restricted friendly fire.

Alamar2078 wrote...

Saephy wrote...

According to the Chantry, suicide is a sin and major boo-boo.
Not sure if Karl was an Andrastian or not, and therefore cares or not, but might be something.

I'm not sure if "the Maker" is a rules lawyer or not but wouldn't asking to be killed by someone be just as bad as suiciding directly?   I'm sure it can be argued but the two things are almost identical to me.

I don't know if "kill my zombie" qualifies as suicide.

[Asdara]

Phantom13NWN2 wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

The question is, did tranquil Karl want to die?
If he didn't, then it is in fact murder.

Maker... A tranquil has no fear, no desire, no dreams, no ambitions. He doesnt care if he lives, he doesnt care if he dies. Thats what horrible about it, you are nothing... You just exist, its just empty. When Justice brought back his emotions for a moment he said he wanted to die. Because its just a horrible existence.

Which - and this is completely off topic I admit - makes me wonder why, in the Maker's name didn't Anders hook Justice up with a Tranquil buddy - so he'd have a body and it'd apparently be no great loss to the previous occupant.  Cold, I know, but better than what actually occurred in terms of body-count.

[Sabariel]

XX55XX wrote...

Mr.House wrote...

You rather let a man who does want to die to suffer? That's so mean!

I don't believe in murder. Karl should have pulled out a knife and stabbed himself while he had the chance.

Killing someone who asks you to kill them is assisted suicide, not murder.

Modifié par Sabariel, 14 avril 2011 - 04:37 .

[Trophonius]

I would've agreed a month ago, but after watching that scene several times, I realize there's no point in keeping Karl alive. Anders would always bear the pain of going to the Gallows, seeing Karl banefully mistreated by templars and feeling like absolute s*** for failing him. It's also a known fact that Karl wanted to keep the last ounce of dignity he had left by dying as a mage and not some doll to be played with. The templars violated their right to make him tranquil in the first place. Anders' objective was to free him as an apostate. When that failed, the only thing he could do is to at least respect his lover's wishes.

[Saephy]

Koyasha wrote...

I presume Karl didn't have a knife. Why would he?

I've never seen a comment on suicide being a sin in Chantry traditions. Not that I seriously doubt it, but do you know where exactly that's stated?

In a banter between Anders and Fenris, Anders asks Fenris if he ever contemplated suicide, to which Fenris replies no, and continues to elaborate on it being a sin in the eyes of the maker.

Also, I believe Sebastian might mention it, however I can`t recall since I only played once with him, and didn`t pay too much attention to what he said for most of the time, so take that with a grain of salt.

[Plaintiff]

Anders does not ask you for permission, nor should he. Karl, (REAL Karl, not mind-raped beyond recognition Karl) made his desires known and the humane and respectful thing is to fulfill them.

I don't think a player should be able to control the party members to that extent anyway. In an RPG you play A role, not ALL the roles. You're not the GM.

[Saephy]

Alamar2078 wrote...

Saephy wrote...

According to the Chantry, suicide is a sin and major boo-boo.
Not sure if Karl was an Andrastian or not, and therefore cares or not, but might be something.

I'm not sure if "the Maker" is a rules lawyer or not but wouldn't asking to be killed by someone be just as bad as suiciding directly?   I'm sure it can be argued but the two things are almost identical to me.

They do, and I agree.
However I need to be a bit careful with what I say now since I`m not too well-versed in the details of religious teachings, but I seem to recall that in the catholic church for example, it´s also major boo-boo to commit suicide.
Yet, I´ve seen other works where it is indicated that it is somehow less of a sin if you ask someone else to do it.
Whether that presentation was "correct" in doing so, I can`t say for sure.

[Miashi]

Plaintiff wrote...

Anders does not ask you for permission, nor should he. Karl, (REAL Karl, not mind-raped beyond recognition Karl) made his desires known and the humane and respectful thing is to fulfill them.

I don't think a player should be able to control the party members to that extent anyway. In an RPG you play A role, not ALL the roles. You're not the GM.

Why kicking Anders in the balls to stop him from killing Karl shouldn't be allowed?
Just as a side example, you can kill Fenryiel in the fade and make him tranquil. Although he DOES ask that you do it, you still have the choice of persuading him to survive. That's 2 outcomes for a NPC instead of 1 like Karl.

It's not like Karl changes much to the story anyway. Allowing him to live would've just felt like an awesome reason to make Anders even more bitter about you, and possibly expand better dialog options.

The only explanable excuse on not allowing Karl to live is that development time was too short to allow it.

edit: I mean, no point on trying to find a chantry or whatever else reason to motivate Hawke's reasons on stopping Anders. Not every choice has to be dictated by a rule. Greasing up the dialog options just to find out they're meaningless is pointless. It adds no replay value at all.

Modifié par Miashi, 14 avril 2011 - 02:36 .

[Camenae]

If Karl didn't die, I would totally have felt like the OTHER woman.