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Roleplaying with a Fully Voiced Avatar


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#1
Hatchetman77

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A huge criticism of this game was the fact that unlike DA:O, you had to play as a specific character and had very little variation in the personality the player could inpart to him. In the game we have Bioware tracking your good, smartass and **** options, and Hawke's personality and dialouge changing slightly because of it. So my question is, why aren't we tracking more dialouge options so the player can feel more in control of Hawke's personality? I always thought the game should have tracked if your character was pro mage or pro templar on top of good/silly/bad. What if we tracked the amount of times Hawke expressed belief in the maker in conversation. So depending on our dialouge choices we could have a good, maker fearing mage hating Hawke or a smartass athiest mage loving Hawke. Just those three things create a huge amount of personality variations.

This could make for some dramatic scenes in the game. If your Hawke was a mage lover and a mage did something horrible to a loved one then you could have a sceen where you could make a dramatic switch and have your character hate mages now (and actually have a character arc). Or if something really bad happens and you are religious, you could now have a crisis of faith and choose to hate the maker. It brings up some interesting roleplaying options.

There is also the problem of Hawke not wanting to get flagged for a dialouge choice made to appease companions rather than being something Hawke actually believes in. This would be no problem with the handy dandy "bluff button" in the middle of the dialouge wheel. Press it then pick your dialouge option and the game flags it as a bluff. It won't flag it as part of your core personality but it will flag it as a bluff to a particular character and track it, noting that you are saying this dialouge not because it is part of your core personality but because you want a desired result from saying this dialouge to a certain character. So if you continually bluff the same character and pick options that the character will like then the game flags that you want to be nice to this character despite your core personality being an ****. Or it could even go vice versa, you could be nice but want to antagonize a certain party member for some reason. So even though your character may be a complete jerk, it will use what would have been the "nice" dialouge on this certain character.  Excessively using the bluff button may also be a personality option all of it's own, and "bluffer" could be your personality. You could also put non combat abilities back in to include the persuasion talent. This would make your character have to do a bluff roll which is countered by the person you are trying to bluff. A failed role would give you the opposite effect of the choice you picked. It would also be much harder to bluff Isabella or Verric than say Merrill in this system.

So what does everyone think? Am I off base on this or do we think we can still roleplay with a fully voiced avatar with a system like this?

Edit: To avoid confusion I'll point out that my post is working under the assumption that in Origins many people liked the voiceless avatar because they could imagine themselves what the avatar was saying when they picked a response. I think those people feel restricted with Hawke voicing their responses. While I sympathize with this view as it is one that I share myself, I also don't think that we'll be returning to the voiceless avatar any time soon. I think that we can have a voiced avatar, with the restrictions that having a voiced avatar brings, yet still give people many options to feel like they are in control of that voiced avatar's personality.  The other assumption I am making is that choice makes people feel like they are in control.  In Origin's we had several choices that significantly impacted the game world (werewolves vs. elves/ saving or abandoning Redcliff, etc.)  I think that if we brought that same level of choice to Hawke's personality that we can satisfy the roleplayers that feel left out by the restrictions of having Hawke voice their responses.

Modifié par Hatchetman77, 14 avril 2011 - 03:58 .


#2
Tekman9

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ive said it a few times but im really disappointed with the way that being a mage (even a blood mage) has like no affect on the game. DA:O wasnt very good with this either. I dont get why you would put that type of lore into the game but then not really have it exist in the actual gameplay/story.

#3
Ieolus

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The design decision to make Hawke fully voiced really limited the choices of the player character. There is no real reason (other than the voice) that Hawke couldn't have been an elf or dwarf.

#4
Tekman9

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not true. i guess its also complicated to script the conversations or 'cut-scenes' or whatever for different races. Not an excuse, but im just saying i read that.

DA:O did have a 'voice' for your character. Did they have different choices for elf/dwarf as well? I cant remember.

#5
neubourn

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Ieolus wrote...

The design decision to make Hawke fully voiced really limited the choices of the player character. There is no real reason (other than the voice) that Hawke couldn't have been an elf or dwarf.


Resources.

If Hawke were an Elf or Dwarf, then it would require even more dialogue and options when dealing with the Daelish in Sundermount, the Alienage, and with Varric and Bartrand. If there wasnt, then you can guarantee people would be here fuming about THAT as well. 

#6
Tekman9

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again, not excuses though...

#7
Cyberstrike nTo

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I've replayed Dragon Age II about 7 times (4 times on PS3 and 3 times on Xbox 360), now and I have no problem with a fully voice avatar. In fact I enjoy playing as Hawke a lot more than the Grey Warden because I can relate to her (or him) because of the voice acting than the silent mute Grey Warden in Dragon Age: Origins which took me out of the game more than put me in it.

#8
Maverick827

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I think the idea of being able to "bluff" with every response is interesting, but I believe that would be much more difficult to implement than it sounds.

Regardless, I would expect to see the "personality" system expanded more in subsequent Dragon Age games.

#9
AkiKishi

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You can't roleplay with the paraphrase system. Not knowing what is going to come out of the characters mouth makes it impossible that you are the character. It makes you more of a director, you direct what you want and the actor takes care of it.

#10
Scnew

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Tekman9 wrote...

ive said it a few times but im really disappointed with the way that being a mage (even a blood mage) has like no affect on the game. DA:O wasnt very good with this either. I dont get why you would put that type of lore into the game but then not really have it exist in the actual gameplay/story.


At lead DA:O figured out a reason why you could go be out and about as a mage without Templars coming down on you... you're inscripted as a Grey Warden.  Granted, I'm not sure that excuses the use of blood magic in DA:O, but at least most of being a mage was okay. Plus you're not around Templars all day every day in the first one.

#11
bigSarg

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Cyberstrike nTo wrote...

I've replayed Dragon Age II about 7 times (4 times on PS3 and 3 times on Xbox 360), now and I have no problem with a fully voice avatar. In fact I enjoy playing as Hawke a lot more than the Grey Warden because I can relate to her (or him) because of the voice acting than the silent mute Grey Warden in Dragon Age: Origins which took me out of the game more than put me in it.



I have to agree, the voice over in DA2 was one of the few things I liked about it, it deffinately made it more enjoyable and easier to get into the feel of the character, although having more race options (Elf, Dwarf) would have been much better.  It was something I always wondered about with DA:O, since your response options are limited to whats available why not have a voice over for the Warden, it really wouldn't have been that much different than voice overs for any of the other companions or NPC's.

#12
Deylar

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I have said this before. And you can beat me over the head all you like about comparing two games. I am not comparing the games, I comparing in the way the techniques are used.

In DA2 Bioware gives you an oppurtunity to create your Hawke, I have addressed this before in another one of my thread, but no matter how you create your Hawke sometimes the way you want Hawke to look doesn't match the Voiceover. Its kind of like a Half ass this is your character. The Voiceover predetermines what Hawke should look like with the way he sounds. I had to restart a few Hawkes until I got the right facial structure for the Voiceover.

Now take a look at a game like Fable 2 and 3. Your character is Voiceovered, but there is a big difference. You have a character already preset with a body type. You the player only make suggestions on the appearance throughout the game. What they should wear, how they should look, if they have a beard or a moustache.

DA2 sorta half already predetermines what your character will look look, but giving you the illusion that you can create any character you want.

I don't mind voiceover in games like Fable.

But in games like DA2 or even DAO. Voiceover kind of doesn't work. Its like if the TES series tried to voiceover.

I thought the point of DA was that you can create your character as you imagined. Any age or race.

Voiceover in some ways already predetermines your character.

I have no problem with Voiceover. I just feel limited because of Voiceover.

#13
Volaren

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I would love it if Bioware could have a fully voiced avatar but lets face it it would be VERY expensive. To have it the way DAO fans would like it - it would mean 5 or more dialogue choices with at least 8 different voices. That's not including any party dialogue.

I think financially Bioware will have to make the choice between limited voiced protagonist or a silent (with but with many dialogue options) protagonist. I prefer choice personally.

But hey if Bioware can afford it, a fully voiced protagonist is fine with me.

#14
Morroian

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BobSmith101 wrote...

You can't roleplay with the paraphrase system.

Wrong, you just can't conceive of it, in reality it just comes down to preference. 

#15
Loc'n'lol

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If you could be a dwarf or an elf, then your family wouldn't be Kirkwall nobles for generations... because there's no such thing as elf nobles, and although dwarves can be respected among humans, they can't be nobles in human settlements.
If you can be a dwarf or an elf, then suddenly, you being Fereldan isn't really relevant anymore... People will still discriminate you but Fereldans won't look up to you.
Speaking of which, I don't recall seeing any dwarves at Ostagar, and the only elves who were there were running errands for the human army.
If you're a dwarf, Bethany can't be a mage and neither can you. Plot instantly falls apart.
If you could be a dwarf or an elf, then they'd have to adapt all the new armor models to fit on non-humans
They'd also have to make the combat animations for dwarves (Varric is unique because he only uses Bianca, every other dwarf uses DAO animations in combat). They'd also have to make female dwarves...

#16
TomY90

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i do not miss the varying races it did not effect the game that much and much prefer fully voiced characters than you fill in the blanks.

I do feel as well origins made it very very tricky for the hero to appear at all in 2 because of the variations of the character which hawke on the other hand should not have such issues especially considering the voice actor and the one story is in place already and the platform is their for him/her

#17
ZombiePowered

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_Loc_N_lol_ wrote...
They'd also have to make female dwarves...


No. No. No no no. Nonononononononono!

#18
Sylvius the Mad

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I insist that if you're viewing Hawke as an avatar rather than a character in his own right, you're doing it wrong.

#19
Vicious

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I thought the point of DA was that you can create your character as you imagined. Any age or race.


Wrong.

I insist that if you're viewing Hawke as an avatar rather than a character in his own right, you're doing it wrong.


This.

It depends on the story they're trying to tell. Sometimes a semi-blank state works. Sometimes they want to go with a preset character. DA3 they will probably try to marry the two ways.

#20
elearon1

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BobSmith101 wrote...

You can't roleplay with the paraphrase system


Actually, what you're saying is You can't roleplay with a paraphrase system; I didn't have a problem with it.  

#21
Sylvius the Mad

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Vicious wrote...

I insist that if you're viewing Hawke as an avatar rather than a character in his own right, you're doing it wrong.

This.

It depends on the story they're trying to tell. Sometimes a semi-blank state works. Sometimes they want to go with a preset character. DA3 they will probably try to marry the two ways.

I don't think we actually agree.  An avatar is a representation of the player in the game environment.  A character has his own thoughts and interests distinct from the player.  That's the distinction I'm tying to make.

You're comparing characters whose personality is preset, and those whose personality is determined by the player.  Those can both be characters, and that distinction isn't relevant to my point.

elearon1 wrote...

BobSmith101 wrote...

You can't roleplay with the paraphrase system

Actually, what you're saying is You can't roleplay with a paraphrase system; I didn't have a problem with it. 

No, that's not what he's saying.  I don't think you can roleplay with the paraphrase system either, because the paraphrase system prevents you from making the fine distinctions necessary to maintain character coherence.

Modifié par Sylvius the Mad, 14 avril 2011 - 02:53 .


#22
Hatchetman77

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Maverick827 wrote...

I think the idea of being able to "bluff" with every response is interesting, but I believe that would be much more difficult to implement than it sounds.

Regardless, I would expect to see the "personality" system expanded more in subsequent Dragon Age games.


I got the idea when I thought of Westwoos Studio's Blade Runner game from 1997.  They put in a bunch of flags to track what the character was doing to give you one of 10 different endings while also changing your playthrough each time you played (ie, at some points in the game someone would jump you in an alley but if you do things in a different order on your next playthrough then that person may not be there).  If Westwood could do that over a decade ago I don't see why BioWare couldn't do that today.  It may not be easy, but BioWare keeps saying that they want to "innovate".  This would be their chance to prove that innovate isn't company jargon for "do things for as cheap as we can get away with." 

Modifié par Hatchetman77, 14 avril 2011 - 03:05 .


#23
ransompendragon

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I think the ideas are interesting but would be easier to implement without fully voiced characters.

And I think  I am  my avatar [is] in love with Sylvius. I almost always agree with everything he says!

Modifié par ransompendragon, 14 avril 2011 - 03:10 .


#24
Deylar

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Vicious wrote...


I thought the point of DA was that you can create your character as you imagined. Any age or race.
 

Wrong.


You cannot really call my argument wrong, when DAO DID sell itself as that game. The game to create any character you imagined. 

#25
AkiKishi

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Morroian wrote...

BobSmith101 wrote...

You can't roleplay with the paraphrase system.

Wrong, you just can't conceive of it, in reality it just comes down to preference. 


No it's not possible. I know what I am going to say before I say it. If I am supposed to be the character then not knowing what I am going to say makes it rather clear that the character and I are not the same entity.

elearon1 wrote...

Actually, what you're saying is You can't roleplay with a paraphrase system; I didn't have a problem with it.  


Then you are not roleplaying, you are simply directing how you want the story to go.

Modifié par BobSmith101, 14 avril 2011 - 09:18 .