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[BluGirl1968]

Hello. My name is Blu G. and I over-analyse everything. In keeping with this personal tradition, I thought I might seek like minded folks about story arcs that I found of interest to me. It is highly likely that this post will be met with a number of TL;DRs and then at least I will get a giggle. However, here are my current thoughts- such as they are: 

Main themes - Terrorism and Religious Extremism. If Bioware's writers are the triumphant wrestler and I am the defeated wrestler then these two topics are the folding chair that Bioware's writers beat me over the head with...ow – right in the metaphor. Enough said.


Fenris – This is a story that is rewarding and appealing. It is my confessed favorite because this story is about healing. Fenris comes to the story profoundly damaged by a history of abuse and brutality. The story is poignant and moving and I relate to Fenris and his struggle to overcome his own feelings of self-loathing and hatred. Fenris is a very intelligent and introspective man and able to find healing in the platonic or romantic love of Hawke. Fenris makes and excellent counterpoint to Anders.


Anders – Anders' story is a story about the deterioration of a very good man. It hurts me every time I play the game to see it happen and it further hurts that there is nothing Hawke can do to help him. I confess that I have a tendency to avoid Anders when he really breaks down. I do try to be a good victim and not meta-game the choices I make when playing Hawke but I find it hard to play the end of the game because of what Anders does. I wonder if Anders can really fall in love or if he just needs the protection Hawke offers? One of my favorite moment with Anders is, that after Hawke's first intense encounter with him, you can see the sunny and funny Anders from Awakenings peek out from the storm clouds here and there in his conversations.


As a side note, these two men are purposely built to be ridiculously attractive.


Merril – I confess, I was not thrilled at first because her choices are so blatantly and obviously stupid. However this arc becomes interesting when you realize that she forces the player of Hawke to define what kind of friend she/he will be? Will you enable her need to complete her project to gain approval or will you choose to be a real friend?


Qunari v Thedas – This is a subtle technology v nature arc. It is interesting to me that nature seems to be winning more then technology in this arc.


Mages v The Denizens of the Fade – This is a really good story arc because it contains hidden relevance. To paraphrase futurist and author Michael Ventura, people are using technology to reach for a “permanent dream state” where every wish can be fulfilled and every thought is equal to reality. (I encourage people to read his stuff. It is fascinating.) The Fade and its creatures are the stuff of Thedan's dreams and they are as real and present as tears or a smile.

[Amagoi]

'lo Blu. I thought I'd throw in some of my views on what you posted.

Main themes: With DA2 it brings in a lot of different colors to the main themes of the series. A really great one was Anders' example of how being so dedicated to a cause could be a horrible thing, as opposed to how we normally hear about dedication in a good light.

With the Mages v Templars, it's a great conflict because it reflects a lot of the concerns of the modern world. Security vs Freedom is a big issue no matter where you are, and they were able to translate it very well into a fantasy world and make it relevant.

Qunari vs Thedas: I wouldn't say technology is losing, if you'd classify it as that. The Qunari don't really fight the rest of Thedas, only the Tevinter Imperium. To me the Qunari seem to represent the dangers of discovery. When two advanced cultures finally meet, it can be a bit unpredictable. A theme like this would fit in perfectly with Mass Effect, but by the time the games start humanity is already pretty well aquanited with the rest of the galaxy.

Modifié par Amagoi, 13 avril 2011 - 11:25 .

[DoNotIngest]

BluGirl1968 wrote...

Hello. My name is Blu G. and I over-analyse everything. In keeping with this personal tradition, I thought I might seek like minded folks about story arcs that I found of interest to me. It is highly likely that this post will be met with a number of TL;DRs and then at least I will get a giggle. However, here are my current thoughts- such as they are: 

Main themes - Terrorism and Religious Extremism. If Bioware's writers are the triumphant wrestler and I am the defeated wrestler then these two topics are the folding chair that Bioware's writers beat me over the head with...ow – right in the metaphor. Enough said.

"Terrorism and Religious Extremism"? I suppose the second applies pretty well, although I'm not sure about the first one. A building full of "innocents" (debatable, since Elthina is suppost to be the peacekeeper; she watches the building start to burn, and removes small, explosive-when-heated spray cans until the fire hits the propane tank, when she should be grabbing the propane tank, throwing it outside, and beating down the flames) is blown up, if that's what you mean. Explosions harming innocents isn't the description of "terrorism", otherwise all foreign countries meddling in the affairs of others would be "terrorism".

Fenris – This is a story that is rewarding and appealing. It is my confessed favorite because this story is about healing. Fenris comes to the story profoundly damaged by a history of abuse and brutality. The story is poignant and moving and I relate to Fenris and his struggle to overcome his own feelings of self-loathing and hatred. Fenris is a very intelligent and introspective man and able to find healing in the platonic or romantic love of Hawke. Fenris makes and excellent counterpoint to Anders.

Fenris has convinced himself he's been abused, tortured and enslaved his entire life. While I'm sympathetic with that, his relentless comments, which he makes as cruel as possible, wore me down; when he found out he had demanded and fought for his tattoos, he tries to kill his remaining family. I don't know, maybe it's just because he didn't have any cuteness factors playing for me.

Anders – Anders' story is a story about the deterioration of a very good man. It hurts me every time I play the game to see it happen and it further hurts that there is nothing Hawke can do to help him. I confess that I have a tendency to avoid Anders when he really breaks down. I do try to be a good victim and not meta-game the choices I make when playing Hawke but I find it hard to play the end of the game because of what Anders does. I wonder if Anders can really fall in love or if he just needs the protection Hawke offers? One of my favorite moment with Anders is, that after Hawke's first intense encounter with him, you can see the sunny and funny Anders from Awakenings peek out from the storm clouds here and there in his conversations.

He really is an avalanche, all started by his seemingly good-hearted choice of taking in Justice. I can't really fault him for anything besides being an ass and not letting you in on his mass-murdering plans, and I usually let him live in the end. I'm pretty sure we more or less are on the same page with Anders.

As a side note, these two men are purposely built to be ridiculously attractive.


Merril – I confess, I was not thrilled at first because her choices are so blatantly and obviously stupid. However this arc becomes interesting when you realize that she forces the player of Hawke to define what kind of friend she/he will be? Will you enable her need to complete her project to gain approval or will you choose to be a real friend?

     Blatantly and obviously stupid? I'll use an example somebody else has stated before: "Blood magic is as evil as steel; It all depends on how you use it." Considering Merrill confined her blood magic to her own right wrist, and dealt with demons only twice, while attempting to protect others as much as possible (she asks Hawke to come along to Sundermount in Act 3 in case she needs to be slaughtered, should she become an abomination). Her choices are desperate, because she's spent years of her life trying to restore history from a mysterious object that stole two of her only friends; And yet she still takes all the precautions that she can.
     I won't go into too much detail on why I think supporting her is being a real friend. Pol ran due to Marethari's warnings and the Clan's rumouring; Merrill hadn't harmed anybody, had in fact moved away, and didn't warrant this. For Marethari to think Merrill (and Hawke & friends) was too weak, attempt to fight the demon, and find herself lacking (she says she took the demon in instead of banishing it, but this was said by one who was already possessed, so she/the Pride demon may well have been lying), proves she was incredibly prideful, not to be envied when fighting Pride Demon. And the Clan, well, "Your Keeper turned into an abomination and attacked us!" "KILL THEM ALL!"... That's not reasonable, in my opinion.

Qunari v Thedas – This is a subtle technology v nature arc. It is interesting to me that nature seems to be winning more then technology in this arc.


Mages v The Denizens of the Fade – This is a really good story arc because it contains hidden relevance. To paraphrase futurist and author Michael Ventura, people are using technology to reach for a “permanent dream state” where every wish can be fulfilled and every thought is equal to reality. (I encourage people to read his stuff. It is fascinating.) The Fade and its creatures are the stuff of Thedan's dreams and they are as real and present as tears or a smile.

Just to be clear, the Fade is a seperate "realm" and is just as real as Hawke & Co (Hah, kind of ironic). I think you stated as much, just varifying.

My thoughts are in BOLD.

[primero holodon]

1. I think the qunari vsThedas is more a question of eastern vs weastern philosophy than anything else, especially since the qunari having explosives parallels the old asian dynasties who used primitive explosive powders

2. as far as Merrills story arc is concerned, yes what she was doing was increadibly stupid, but her reasoning was rather understandable. The way I saw it, Merrill always knew it would end badly for somebody, but she figured it would be herself who was sacrificed in the end, and she believed that sacraficing her life was worth it if it could restore her peoples knowledge.  

[DoNotIngest]

Woops. Forgot to add in at the end of my Merrill bit that I found I was quite susceptible to pointy ears and Welsh accents So cuteness was a factor in my opinion-forming too. Of course, with Merrill, if it isn't, you're an infant-eating monster.

Modifié par DoNotIngest, 14 avril 2011 - 02:27 .

[cJohnOne]

I thought Merrill was stupid too but I got over it for the most part.

[JasmoVT]

primero holodon wrote...

1. I think the qunari vsThedas is more a question of eastern vs weastern philosophy than anything else, especially since the qunari having explosives parallels the old asian dynasties who used primitive explosive powders.  

Agree completely, this is clearly the eastern Harmony as the highest social value versus western Freedom as the highest social value.

[Apathy1989]

DoNotIngest wrote...

"Terrorism and Religious Extremism"? I suppose the second applies pretty well, although I'm not sure about the first one. A building full of "innocents" (debatable, since Elthina is suppost to be the peacekeeper; she watches the building start to burn, and removes small, explosive-when-heated spray cans until the fire hits the propane tank, when she should be grabbing the propane tank, throwing it outside, and beating down the flames) is blown up, if that's what you mean. Explosions harming innocents isn't the description of "terrorism", otherwise all foreign countries meddling in the affairs of others would be "terrorism".

No its most definetly terrorism. Attacks on civilians without a declaration of war is terrorism.

Anders is a revolutionary mage, igniting a civil war across kirkwall and all lands under the chantry.

I think Merrill is far smarter than Anders in this regard. She knows all spirits are dangerous and should be approached cautiously. Anders took a spirit into his body, perhaps he thought he would end up like wynne, but it was a foolish risk and I would call him possessed.

[cJohnOne]

I like the Religion in the Dragon Age fantasy setting and I also find terrorism to be interesting also.

[Infaela]

Apathy1989 wrote...

DoNotIngest wrote...

"Terrorism and Religious Extremism"? I suppose the second applies pretty well, although I'm not sure about the first one. A building full of "innocents" (debatable, since Elthina is suppost to be the peacekeeper; she watches the building start to burn, and removes small, explosive-when-heated spray cans until the fire hits the propane tank, when she should be grabbing the propane tank, throwing it outside, and beating down the flames) is blown up, if that's what you mean. Explosions harming innocents isn't the description of "terrorism", otherwise all foreign countries meddling in the affairs of others would be "terrorism".

No its most definetly terrorism. Attacks on civilians without a declaration of war is terrorism.

If his intent was to terrorize civilians and if you accept the notion that the chantry, which oversees and legitimizes the templars who have been kidnapping, imprisoning, and locking up mages (including Anders) for centuries, deserves no blame for the actions of the templars that it oversees, then sure, it was terrorism.

Personally, I think it was his intent to attack the institution that was responsible for the repression of his people at the most troublesome time he possibly could.  He wasn't really trying to scare anyone, which is a necessary component of terrorism, just murder a bunch of folks and start a war.  That's not necessarily better, but it is different.

Seriously, the word terrorism comes with sooo much real modern world baggage that just doesn't apply.  Why do people keep using it?

Anders is a revolutionary mage, igniting a civil war across kirkwall and all lands under the chantry.

I think Merrill is far smarter than Anders in this regard. She knows all spirits are dangerous and should be approached cautiously. Anders took a spirit into his body, perhaps he thought he would end up like wynne, but it was a foolish risk and I would call him possessed.

She might have a clearer understanding of the difference (or lack thereof) between demons and spirits, but even knowing better she was still well on her way to making a tragic mistake that would unleash a demon.  That's not smarter, if anything, it's less so.  She knew how dangerous what she was trying to do could be, and persisted in doing it despite the near inevitability of a tragic result.  Marethari's interference saved her from the fate she was courting, not Merrill's intelligence or wisdom. 

Anders, on the other hand, had no one to step in and say, "Look, maybe this isn't the best idea you've had," until it was way too late.  He had an apparently mistaken understanding of the nature of spirits and demons, learned both from how he was taught to view them in the circle and from Justice's own ignorance about the matter, which I think was somewhat willful from the things he said in Awakening.  Anders believed demons and spirits were fundamentally different beings, that spirits were inherently good, embodiments of human virtues, etc.  He seemed to know that they could be corrupted, but had no real way of knowing if it were true or how it might happen.

He certainly didn't make a good decision when he let Justice into his head, but it seems to me that the person who jumps off a bridge with their eyes wide open is maybe not guilty of being smarter than the one who stumbles off the edge blindfolded and thinking that drop is just a staircase or something.

[Knight of Dane]

DoNotIngest wrote...

Blatantly and obviously stupid? I'll use an example somebody else has stated before: "Blood magic is as evil as steel; It all depends on how you use it." Considering Merrill confined her blood magic to her own right wrist, and dealt with demons only twice, while attempting to protect others as much as possible (she asks Hawke to come along to Sundermount in Act 3 in case she needs to be slaughtered, should she become an abomination). Her choices are desperate, because she's spent years of her life trying to restore history from a mysterious object that stole two of her only friends; And yet she still takes all the precautions that she can.
     I won't go into too much detail on why I think supporting her is being a real friend. Pol ran due to Marethari's warnings and the Clan's rumouring; Merrill hadn't harmed anybody, had in fact moved away, and didn't warrant this. For Marethari to think Merrill (and Hawke & friends) was too weak, attempt to fight the demon, and find herself lacking (she says she took the demon in instead of banishing it, but this was said by one who was already possessed, so she/the Pride demon may well have been lying), proves she was incredibly prideful, not to be envied when fighting Pride Demon. And the Clan, well, "Your Keeper turned into an abomination and attacked us!" "KILL THEM ALL!"... That's not reasonable, in my opinion.

Will you marry me?
No really this is the best thing i have seen written about Merrill, i couldn't have come up with this myself despite my slitting wrists and Merrill-worship.

[BluGirl1968]

Thank you for your opinions! I hadn't hoped for this but I deeply appreciate your input.

Qunari v. Thedas becomes more clear after reading the lore presented in the information scattered around the city. Although currently the Qun only fights the Tivinters, this was not always the case.
The first time the Qun rose, it took the entire whole of Thedas to fight them to a standtill. I believe the record of note is called "The llomeran Accords." The information provided states that the Qun used thier special violent explosives and that the resisting Thedans use the mages to bring the Qun to the negotiating table. It is not something that can be gleaned from the surface.

I am curious about the reaction to Merril.
To quote - Blatantly and obviously stupid? I'll use an example somebody else has stated before: "Blood magic is as evil as steel; It all depends on how you use it."

It seems to me you have explored one and only one outcome of the story here. May I suggest the gathering of more data through other choices? The characters really only become focused by pushing them around with the various decisions. I do not say your views are invalid however, I respectfully disagree and suspect an emotional grounding in your argument.

Do not ingest - I also disagree with the Fenris information. While I agree that his bitterness could easily drive people away, in talking to him it becomes clear that he is trying to rise above his own irrationality. I'd encourage you to seek friendship with the character in order to see what I have seen.

[Asguardwolf]

For the dalish clan I have never killed them on any walkthrough since they are a carry over from DAO and my elf rouge in DAO was from that clan and was the one who found the mirror originally made me feel sorta responsible for introducing merril to it also Flem seems to have a link with them since the rezzed her. Maybe she hooks up with my original rogue in DA3 again. Was hoping for a bit more from the clan about how my hero was from them.

[Archangel01]

Merrill is 14 when you meet her for the first quest. You can't be too hard on her.
According to his sister, Fenris wanted to be what he became, he competed against others for the role. So, did he not remember, or does he want to forget?
Anders,Merrill, Fenris,Isabella all seem to blames outside forces for choices they made. And the grim way they hold on to theses choice, regardless of the evidence, seems to me what DA2 is about. No one adapts to the situation, but try to force events to conform to their beliefs. The Qunari, the templars, the mages are all victims of themselves. It is kind of interesting.

[Apathy1989]

Infaela wrote...

Apathy1989 wrote...

No its most definetly terrorism. Attacks on civilians without a declaration of war is terrorism.

If his intent was to terrorize civilians and if you accept the notion that the chantry, which oversees and legitimizes the templars who have been kidnapping, imprisoning, and locking up mages (including Anders) for centuries, deserves no blame for the actions of the templars that it oversees, then sure, it was terrorism.

Personally, I think it was his intent to attack the institution that was responsible for the repression of his people at the most troublesome time he possibly could.  He wasn't really trying to scare anyone, which is a necessary component of terrorism, just murder a bunch of folks and start a war.  That's not necessarily better, but it is different.

Seriously, the word terrorism comes with sooo much real modern world baggage that just doesn't apply.  Why do people keep using it?

Anders was attacking the Chantry is a very dramatic fashion, he could not expect to do anything but terrorise civilians.

However I think that was the point. He is trying to force the issue. No more compromise, no more tolerance. He wanted open warfare, for the destruction of one side or the other. Because in his mind, or more so justices mind, the situation was a grave injustice currently.

It probably will be civilians and the templars vs the mages. I don't expect many people to be sympathetic to mages, except people who have family members that are mages.

Magic is something feared and viewed with suspicion. Wynne said in DAO, if you argue against the chantry, that the circle was for mages protect as much as the people outside the tower. How many children would have been killed for simply being a mage? How many mages might have been blamed for failed crops, stillbirths or bad weather? A powerful mage could defend against a mob, but probably not one who hadn't been guided by a mentor such as found in the circle. A mob chasing down a young mage would likely result in an abomination which kills a whole village, which just creates more fear when people hear of it.

[Infaela]

Apathy1989 wrote...

Infaela wrote...

Apathy1989 wrote...

No its most definetly terrorism. Attacks on civilians without a declaration of war is terrorism.

If his intent was to terrorize civilians and if you accept the notion that the chantry, which oversees and legitimizes the templars who have been kidnapping, imprisoning, and locking up mages (including Anders) for centuries, deserves no blame for the actions of the templars that it oversees, then sure, it was terrorism.

Personally, I think it was his intent to attack the institution that was responsible for the repression of his people at the most troublesome time he possibly could.  He wasn't really trying to scare anyone, which is a necessary component of terrorism, just murder a bunch of folks and start a war.  That's not necessarily better, but it is different.

Seriously, the word terrorism comes with sooo much real modern world baggage that just doesn't apply.  Why do people keep using it?

Anders was attacking the Chantry is a very dramatic fashion, he could not expect to do anything but terrorise civilians.

Well... yes, any dramatic overkill style attack is going to terrorize any innocents who happen to be nearby, and any attack on a prominent target is going to upset civilians who support it, or possibly kill civilians who are around but....  while blowing up the chantry could certainly scare the crap out of people who aren't involved in the conflict, most violence has that effect.  Heck, if the only standard is that it's a dramatic attack intended to terrorise civilians than the execution of criminals is terrorism too, because it intends to scare civilians out of becoming criminals.  Particularly applicable to the more grotesque execution methods which... I'm not going to elaborate on because it's a bit of a tangent, but anyway not all dramatic killing is terrorism, not even all mass murder is terrorism, not all bombing buildings is terrorism.  The use of the word terrorism comes with a lot of baggage that just doesn't apply to Thedas very well, and I think labeling it terrorism polarises the discussion in a way that makes it difficult to carry on at all.  It's a gut-level condemnation and one that I understand completely.  I just disagree with it.

I also still hold that for an act to be terrorism it really should target an institution or group of people who aren't actually responsible for the reason you're fighting in the first place. 

The chantry is the institution that oversees what he is fighting against.  As an institution, they are not innocent bystanders.  They are not a market square or a residential building.  They have their own army, they use it to hunt down and lock up mages.  Anders is a mage.  It... follows.  Blowing the chantry up with people inside can still be called murder (and with enough debris it'd probably be murder if the building was empty too), but I don't think its terrorism. 

However I think that was the point. He is trying to force the issue. No more compromise, no more tolerance. He wanted open warfare, for the destruction of one side or the other. Because in his mind, or more so justices mind, the situation was a grave injustice currently.

I agree.

It probably will be civilians and the templars vs the mages. I don't expect many people to be sympathetic to mages, except people who have family members that are mages.

Magic is something feared and viewed with suspicion. Wynne said in DAO, if you argue against the chantry, that the circle was for mages protect as much as the people outside the tower. How many children would have been killed for simply being a mage? How many mages might have been blamed for failed crops, stillbirths or bad weather? A powerful mage could defend against a mob, but probably not one who hadn't been guided by a mentor such as found in the circle. A mob chasing down a young mage would likely result in an abomination which kills a whole village, which just creates more fear when people hear of it.

Agreed again.  Though I expect there will be mobs on both sides, if the Fereldens who come out of the wood-work to harass you when you first start looking for Anders are any indication.  It will be interesting to see how the public splits on the issue in future games.  At least, I hope it will.

Modifié par Infaela, 18 avril 2011 - 06:15 .

[Archangel01]

One thing that is interesting is the nature of Kirkwall itself. The Enigma of Kirkwall sequence, the Bone Pit, the story of Sundermount, the Primeval Taig all suggest the events in Kirkwall are driven by the nature of Kirkwall. There are references to a higher than normal number of abominations. Maybe the mage/ templar is exacerbated by this, maybe it's in the lyrium which both sides use. There are lots of dragons, so i guess the whole extinction aspect was premature. Maybe KIrkwall is the nexus of the events to come, like an "all roads lead to Kirkwall " thing. I don't know, but while there bad people on both sides, the action is betwen the good people being forced to choose sides, where maybe they don't want to? That sounds like Fade influence, and the next battleground, the Black City, the two Divines. Bah, all speculation.

[BluGirl1968]

The story of Isabella and the story of Aveline.

Aveline is a rock. Steady in friendship and stable in personality - Aveline is the eye of the storm to Hawke's hurricane. This is the obvious connotation however - I have recently begun to explore Isabella's story more and I have found that the interesting part of Aveline and Isabella's story is that it does not revolve around Hawke. It revolves around the enmity and eventual understanding and friendship between Isabella and Avaline. I love that this story places me into a literal third person.

*goes back to reading codex entries*

[dragonflight288]

For me, Dragon Age 2 is all about one man or woman, caught up in the mage vs templar fight by either being an apostate or related to one. He/she has a personal interest in the fight, even if they desire neutrality. And everyone around them is trying to force their opinions and beliefs on the others. The Qun, The Chant of Light, Ander's plight. Everyone wants everyone to believe they are in the right, and try to force the issue.

Sister Patrice calls the Qunari challengers of the Chantry and used the Chant to try and destroy those who posed no threat at all and would have left well enough alone if she had done nothing.

The Qunari felt sickened by the individual freedoms everyone enjoyed in Kirkwall because so many people squandered what they had, and did not benefit anyone around them. And so in the end, simply tried to take over.

The Templars hate and fear mages with good reason. But they also use the words of Andraste to exert control over the mages, often inappropriately (Ser Alrik). Mages are not allowed freedom for the sake of everyone around them.

The mages desire freedom for themselves, but their power and connection to demons make them a constant threat. Is allowing them to remain unwatched wise? Is the security necessary?

These are very significant issues and are fun thinking about and debating.

[Critical Miss]

Infaela wrote...

Seriously, the word terrorism comes with sooo much real modern world baggage that just doesn't apply.  Why do people keep using it?

I'm pretty much sick of the word "terrorism" floating around too. It's like a new mantra. The modern meaning of terrorism is any form of violence directed at white people, regardless of how bad white people treat others. Anyways, I'm going to throw in a new modern word in regards to Anders blowing the chantry up. It's blowback. Perfectly reasonable, methinks.

Modifié par Critical Miss, 25 avril 2011 - 07:52 .

[Inzhuna]

Archangel01 wrote...

Merrill is 14 when you meet her for the first quest. You can't be too hard on her.
According to his sister, Fenris wanted to be what he became, he competed against others for the role. So, did he not remember, or does he want to forget?
Anders,Merrill, Fenris,Isabella all seem to blames outside forces for choices they made. And the grim way they hold on to theses choice, regardless of the evidence, seems to me what DA2 is about. No one adapts to the situation, but try to force events to conform to their beliefs. The Qunari, the templars, the mages are all victims of themselves. It is kind of interesting.

Merrill is 14? I'm pretty sure she's older than that.

[kromify]

i have to agree that blowing up the chantry was not terrorism, but it's all been said on here before so i'll leave it there.

merrill's use of blood magic was to show the pc that it is not intrinsically evil - but her communicating with the demon was always extremely foolish. she was very prideful to think that she was in the right when literally everyone else was telling her in no uncertain terms that she was being stupid. proper fodder for a pride demon, no?

in your original post blugirl you said you don't know if anders loves you or not. i've had discussions about this before; a lot of us believe he does even though it's not in a healthy way. even he calls it an obsession in the romance scene. their relationship as i see it is of obsessive co-dependency as hawke has only her lover left by the end of act 2, and must have some mental issues of her own.
(i personally adore the anders romance option because it's so agonising to slowly lose the love of hawke's life and not be able to help in any way).

[SilentK]

dragonflight288 wrote...

For me, Dragon Age 2 is all about one man or woman, caught up in the mage vs templar fight by either being an apostate or related to one. He/she has a personal interest in the fight, even if they desire neutrality. And everyone around them is trying to force their opinions and beliefs on the others. The Qun, The Chant of Light, Ander's plight. Everyone wants everyone to believe they are in the right, and try to force the issue.

Sister Patrice calls the Qunari challengers of the Chantry and used the Chant to try and destroy those who posed no threat at all and would have left well enough alone if she had done nothing.

The Qunari felt sickened by the individual freedoms everyone enjoyed in Kirkwall because so many people squandered what they had, and did not benefit anyone around them. And so in the end, simply tried to take over.

The Templars hate and fear mages with good reason. But they also use the words of Andraste to exert control over the mages, often inappropriately (Ser Alrik). Mages are not allowed freedom for the sake of everyone around them.

The mages desire freedom for themselves, but their power and connection to demons make them a constant threat. Is allowing them to remain unwatched wise? Is the security necessary?

These are very significant issues and are fun thinking about and debating.

Wonder what the rest of Thedas makes of all the things going on in Kirkwall. There really is quite a lot if you think about it    =)     The templar-mage-conflict is the one I get caught up on most, so easy for me to sort of stand in the middle. I can see good points on both sides, I've mostly sided with the mages on my Hawkes but my current Hawke is siding with the templars and she isn't some mage-bashing-monstrosity. She tries to help out as much as she can  (poor little girl has no idea how everything will just go downhill quite shortly). Seeing both sides would perhaps make me one of these people that are sort of middling. I can see how forcing the issue really stir things up. And I don't know a 100% how I would react had I been there. Freedom for mages but I don't want Tevinter Imperium V.02. Hmm.... difficult....

[SirGladiator]

There really seemed to be a lot more 'bad' folks than good ones in Kirkwall. Maybe the city itself somehow has that effect on people? Anders wasn't evil in DAA, but he becomes an evil murderer and terrorist by the end of DA2. Same for Meredith, Ive never seen any hard evidence that she was evil early in the game, of course that magical item probably effected her mind at the end, so who knows. Fenris I never learned a whole lot about, I didnt have him on the team very often. Merrill I think 'seems' more stupid and/or evil if you've never played DAO and just assume blood mage=evil, which is an impression that DA2 seems to give pretty strongly. Thats not the impression you get playing DAO though, so for those of us who played both, Merrill doesn't seem bad at all, it seems pretty reasonable the things she's doing. So how you see her character really depends on your perspective.

Isabella is sort of a mixed bag, she's nice and good in a lot of ways, but also her stealing that Qunari item is what ultimately leads to a lot of chaos and death, plus her promiscuous ways, she's clearly not a 'good' character, but if anything she gets better by the end of the game, not worse. Bethany is the best of all the teammates, she starts out good and only gets better by the end. She becomes a true leader in the fight for freedom for mages, she never resorts to evil like Anders, she remains good and true, a role model for all mages.

The whole mages vs templars thing is really the battle of bad vs worse, at least in Kirkwall. The mage leader becomes an abomination, the templar leader is under control of a mysterious/evil artifact, and most of the folks under both of them follow their lead into crazy/evil territory. Bethany and Merrill are almost the only decent mages in the game. Of course I can name even fewer decent templars. I hope that in DA3 if they keep this storyline up, which one would certainly assume they will, they show the good side of the mages and templars, instead of just how horrible they both can be, and ask you to pick which one you dislike the least. As it was, I only sided with the mages because of Bethany, otherwise there would've been no reason at all to care either way, i'd just want to stand back and let the evil folks on both sides kill each other. Hopefully Kirkwall is an exception, and folks in the rest of the world as we explore it in DA3 and beyond, both mages and templars alike, are really much better people. Certainly they were in Ferelden.

[1483749283]

Yes, do we actually know what Merrill's age is?

Inzhuna wrote...

Archangel01 wrote...

Merrill is 14 when you meet her for the first quest. You can't be too hard on her.
According to his sister, Fenris wanted to be what he became, he competed against others for the role. So, did he not remember, or does he want to forget?
Anders,Merrill, Fenris,Isabella all seem to blames outside forces for choices they made. And the grim way they hold on to theses choice, regardless of the evidence, seems to me what DA2 is about. No one adapts to the situation, but try to force events to conform to their beliefs. The Qunari, the templars, the mages are all victims of themselves. It is kind of interesting.

Merrill is 14? I'm pretty sure she's older than that.