283 réponses à ce sujet

[GodWood]

Rurik_Niall wrote...

GodWood wrote...
I fail to see how wanting characters to be in armor when in combat is 'spoiling' them.

Well in the case of Thane and Kasumi I can see it, Thane because his chest needs to remain exposed due to his condition, therefor rendering armour pointless as no matter what his centre mass is exposed

[Rurik_Niall]

And that's precisely why I hate that outfit, it's the exact opposite of the loose fitting clothes which leave his chest exposed that Doctor Chakwas says he needs to wear in his Shadow Broker files. It's roughly equivelant to a person leaving the hospital after being diagnosed with liver failure and heading straight for a bar.

Modifié par Rurik_Niall, 15 avril 2011 - 04:47 .

[GodWood]

Rurik_Niall wrote...
And that's precisely why I hate that outfit, it's the exact opposite of the loose fitting clothes which leave his chest exposed that Doctor Chakwas says he needs to wear in his Shadow Broker files. It's roughly equivelant to a person leaving the hospital after being diagnosed with liver failure and heading straight for a bar.

LotSB added the chest thing after the DLC was released so if you are to hate anything for going against 'canon' it should be the existence of the "he needs his chest exposed" fact.

[Rurik_Niall]

Except that actually makes sense. Loose fitting clothing that allows your chest and abdomen to freely expand is actually sound medical advice when you have a respiratory condition like his, even without the files on him any real doctor could tell you that outfit is a decidedly bad idea for someone in Thane's condition.

[Relix28]

Rurik_Niall wrote...

GodWood wrote...

I fail to see how wanting characters to be in armor when in combat is 'spoiling' them.

Well in the case of Thane and Kasumi I can see it, Thane because his chest needs to remain exposed due to his condition, therefor rendering armour pointless as no matter what his centre mass is exposed, and it would only serve to restrict either of their movements which seeing as the two rely on their agility this isn't a good thing. Everyone else though I can see no reason they couldn't put on a set of armour.

I think it's much more plausible to assume that his air-tight suit (like the one from AAP) has a built in technology that prevents moisture build up and keeps him dry, than for him to be runing around with exposed chest in hostile enviroments that might be potentialy even more harmful than his air-tight suit (Jacobs loaylty mission comes to mind).
As for Kasumi, I think she's fine the way she is. Her suit compliments her role well, and there is not much skin exposure either, so it looks somewhat plausible, apart from the silly breathing mask offcourse.
There is no need for everyone to wear Collossus X and Predator X armors. I think most of use here would simply like to see a litlle bit more plausability and practicality in outfit design. And that doesn't mean that everyone should look generically a like bacause of that.

Modifié par Relix28, 15 avril 2011 - 05:07 .

[Rurik_Niall]

Honestly I'd just leave him on the ship in any environment that would require his chest to be covered. I'd prefer my assassin alive and able to perform his primary job, assassinating things, than laying in the medbay because I stupidly ordered him to disregard Chakwas' advice. Anyway, this is with regards to regular combat here, and in regular combat Thane's current outfit makes sense given his intended role and his condition.

Modifié par Rurik_Niall, 15 avril 2011 - 05:08 .

[KujiMuji]

 I'll try and post my opinion in this matter...

-I hated the over 9000 inventory options, because this cluttered my inventory. 

-I liked how Shepard's armor was customizable in ME2. It was simple, way less troublesome. If it had certain items that could upgrade a part of the armor like say, "Medical Interface for Chest Armor" a la ME1, but in no way shape or form cause the clutter that ocurred in ME1, I would have enjoyed it even more. I do not want to be constantly picking up equipment from the fallen baddies that I no longer needed, then having to sell it because it filled up my inventory.

-I agree with some of the arguments, regarding armor and extreme environments. Yes, It does not make sense to have Jack running around in a corrosive environment half-naked EVEN WITH barriers that hold off said gas. It just screams "I have a death wish, durrr", since, you never know what could happen to your barriers, or whatnots. Sure, there can be barriers to hold off against extreme environments, but still, why depend on said barriers and go half-naked, when this could spell your doom if the barriers go down due to x or y reason.

-Having said that, most people like the unique clothing each character has, instead of just slapping the armor you already used to your fellow human-asari teammate when you find a better one. Just the "un-realistic factor" of running half-naked, or just leather, or skin-tight clothing with only a mouth breather in extreme environments.

-I still play the game, and someone mentioned using characters that make the level more realistic, like Grunt, Garrus, which is something I do. I just don't go berserk if cleavage exposed Samara runs around in extreme environments.

Just my opinion...

[Relix28]

Rurik_Niall wrote...

Honestly I'd just leave him on the ship in any environment that would require his chest to be covered. I'd prefer my assassin alive and able to perform his primary job, assassinating things, than laying in the medbay because I stupidly ordered him to disregard Chakwas' advice. Anyway, this is with regards to regular combat here, and in regular combat Thane's current outfit makes sense given his intended role and his condition.

There is an awful lot of jungle worlds and other kind of moist places in ME2. Just saying.

[Rurik_Niall]

And I never bring him along for any of them. Partly because I'd rather have Garrus and Grunt, Legion, or Tali depending on whether I expect lots of organics, husks, or snythetics, and partly because I like to stay in character and my Shepard isn't stupid enough to order his assassination specialist into any environment that would exacerbate his condition.

[Relix28]

Rurik_Niall wrote...

And I never bring him along for any of them. Partly because I'd rather have Garrus and Grunt, Legion, or Tali depending on whether I expect lots of organics, husks, or snythetics, and partly because I like to stay in character and my Shepard isn't stupid enough to order his assassination specialist into any environment that would exacerbate his condition.

This kinda makes sense if you are roleplaying. But it is also rather limiting in terms of squad selection, don't you think?

[lolwut666]

Rurik_Niall wrote...

And I never bring him along for any of them. Partly because I'd rather have Garrus and Grunt, Legion, or Tali depending on whether I expect lots of organics, husks, or snythetics, and partly because I like to stay in character and my Shepard isn't stupid enough to order his assassination specialist into any environment that would exacerbate his condition.

That's just crazy.

No offense.

[Rurik_Niall]

A bit, but outside of the four previously listed and loyalty missions I hardly ever use anyone else anyway, I don't really feel the need for a biotic squad member since my trusty Widow combined with disruptor and warp ammo can rip through any form of protection I encounter so it's more effective for me to bring along Garrus for his impact shot, and Grunt for his tanking, great for husks, Legion for his hacking, and Tali for Chiktikka.

Modifié par Rurik_Niall, 15 avril 2011 - 05:52 .

[Sparda Stonerule]

I was going to post something about the ME 2 detractors just voicing their opinions and presenting them as facts. But I'll be honest, both sides do that. So before I bring my own flawed argument into this like most people are I think I'll bow out. Have fun arguing with each other with your own assumptions and opinions which have no basis in reality anyway, despite you arguing about realism. I'll just go back to enjoying both games because I like how both of them were handled, and from what I've seen I'll like ME 3 even more than the first two games.

So I'll just state the obvious and say both sides are are fighting a fruitless battle. People rarely change their pre existing views because of internal bias. They will almost assuredly feel the same way about something until hindsight or a different train of thought appears in their own mind which could change their opinions internally.

But this is the internet so I know all this arguing will go on ad infinitum regardless of whatever I or anyone else says.

[lolwut666]

Sparda Stonerule wrote...

I was going to post something about the ME 2 detractors just voicing their opinions and presenting them as facts. But I'll be honest, both sides do that. So before I bring my own flawed argument into this like most people are I think I'll bow out. Have fun arguing with each other with your own assumptions and opinions which have no basis in reality anyway, despite you arguing about realism. I'll just go back to enjoying both games because I like how both of them were handled, and from what I've seen I'll like ME 3 even more than the first two games.

So I'll just state the obvious and say both sides are are fighting a fruitless battle. People rarely change their pre existing views because of internal bias. They will almost assuredly feel the same way about something until hindsight or a different train of thought appears in their own mind which could change their opinions internally.

But this is the internet so I know all this arguing will go on ad infinitum regardless of whatever I or anyone else says.

I don't think this debate is heated enough to warrant this kind of reaction, but I'll have to admit that I haven't really been keeping track.

[Relix28]

Yeah, I think this discussion is relatively calm and civil with lots of people expressing sound arguments and ideas (mostly).

And here's to hope. A hope that folks at Bioware actually consider some of the issues, ideas and concerns that are discussed in this thread.

Modifié par Relix28, 15 avril 2011 - 06:21 .

[Rurik_Niall]

Well I do ooze sarcasm quite a bit, but by my standards that's pretty damn polite so...

[Heavensrun]

100k wrote...

Heavensrun wrote...

She doesn't -need- to, because she's never in vacuum. None of them are, except Shepard, who is covered.

In a few of the N7 missions, Firewalker missions, and the infamous Derelict Collector ship level, you are in space. Hell, the mission where you find the prothean orb really pisses me off, because you're basically on a moon.


Now, for Liara, she never goes into the vacuum. She does, however, board a giant ship flying in the wake of a massive storm of a planet on the verge of becoming a garden world. No telling what kind of toxins are being sprayed around.

None of the N7 missions or firewalker missions take place in vacuum, nor does the Derelict Collector ship.  Being a moon does not mean that there isn't atmosphere. -our- moon doesn't have one, but lots of other moons in our solar system -do-.

The collectors fly.  Using wings.  There -has- to be air in the collector ship, and you never go through any kind of airlock.  Just because you don't fly through a visible field doesn't mean there isn't something keeping the ship's atmosphere contained.  There's also the fact that your weapons make sound, and given that the one time you -are- in vaccum in this game, the devs went out of their way to cut out all sound except shep's breathing, I think that lends credence to the point.

Your squaddies are never in vacuum in this game.  Ever.  That is a scientifically verifiable -fact-.  No conjecture needed.  You can argue about radiation hazards or toxic atmospheres, but not vacuum.

[Heavensrun]

Terror_K wrote...

Again, Heavensrun, you're concocting your own system to try and explain away the fact that the devs didn't come up with one. It's all theory and guesswork on your part, and it doesn't apply to Mass Effect as it is. You just don't seem to be able to accept the basic fact that when making ME2 the team decided to go for style over substance and didn't really think things through a lot of the time. If they had, there would have been some explanation in place as to how these events that currently don't make sense could make sense, but there isn't. You're just trying to formulate "what if?" and "how it could?" scenarios to fill the gaps yourself.

I do have to give you some credit though: as much as I disagree with you, you've at least given more thought to this than the ME2 devs did.

First off, I'm not concocting a system.  I'm pointing out that there is nothing contradictory in the lore about such a system existing, -if- you even -need- one, which I don't even think you -do-.

Let me break down the difference in our intellectual approaches to the events of this game.

When I land on a planet, and my squaddies throw on breathing masks, -I- assume, naturally, that the atmosphere, while toxic, must not be too corrosive, or they'd need to be wearing more.

When you land on a planet, and your squaddies throw on breathing masks, you assume that the devs were lazy and/or stupid.

I do not believe your approach is rational or reasonable.

[Heavensrun]

iakus wrote...

Heavensrun wrote...

Haestrom was a radiation hazard, not a toxic hazard, and it also constitutes practical evidence that the kinetic shields, at least in the ME2 timeframe, -can- protect against radiation.

Codex says otherwise.  Which suggests to me that the develeopers are simply saying "Screw contiuity! MOAR Awesome!" 

At any rate, some more planets:

Zada Ban (uranium dust)

Zeona (sulfur dioxide)

Canalus (Okay, not toxic but a surface temp of 99 degrees Celsius can't be good for you)

The Uranium dust storms on Zada Ban obviously aren't bad enough to stop it from -looking- quite pleasant while it's there.  That actually highlights one of the complaints I -do- have with ME2.  I feel like a lot of the codex entries for N7 mission worlds don't well-match the conditions of the place you actually visit.

Sulfur dioxide is bad for your respiratory system, but I don't know if it's corrosive to skin.  A breathing mask might be enough on Zeona.  And agreed about the temperature on Canalus, althought it's worth mentioning that the mission that leads you there involves a geth weather-control apparatus, which could possibly have screwed with the local temp.

[Heavensrun]

Rurik_Niall wrote...

Because hideous generic armour is precisely what I want. (Oozing sarcasm mode deactivated) I've no issues with my squad having customisable armour like Shepard's N7 armour, but the system in the first game sucked.

Okay, let's not strawman the other side.  Most people aren't saying they want generic armors back, they're just saying they want the squaddies to have full-coverage suits in hostile settings.  Which I honestly don't object to, but I think you can pretty easily make a case that they never enter any environments hostile -enough- that it was nessecary at any point in ME2, and even if there were, there are other explanations for why they wouldn't need such a suit.

[Admoniter]

Rurik_Niall wrote...
I would argue that the individual confident enough to go into battle without armour has a certain merit in terms of badassitude actually, it's sort of like a double bladed lightsabre. Anyone wielding a double bladed lightsabre is one of two things, foolish because they're liable to cut themself in half with it, or badass because they know they can kick your ass with it. Sort of the same principle here. Someone who charges into battle with no armour is either foolish or so badass they don't need it.

Confidence doesn't stop bullets, or bites for that matter. And I have to disagree with going into battle in tights being badass. It has no merit other than to make the professionals that compose your squad look like juvenile morons whos train of thought is more or less "My sheer recklessness and power of will will keep me alive..." so badass. As for the double bladed saber, well yes its not really the same principle. You are correct if you don't know what your doing you are likely to cut yourself in half with it. And as far as the saber staff goes it has a lot of disadvantages compared to the regular saber. The biggest advantage one has with the thing is that it has so many drawback that it isn't widely used hence not many people know what to do when they face a person using it. That said the issue isn't the same, you aren't shooting someone differently because they aren't wearing armor. I expect more professionalism from the supposed best of the best, when looters in Omega are better equiped than members of your squad there is slight problem, especially considering your squad it thrown into life or death situations 2,73 times a day. I expect better.

[100k]

[quote]Heavensrun wrote...

[quote]100k wrote...

[quote]Heavensrun wrote...

She doesn't -need- to, because she's never in vacuum. None of them are, except Shepard, who is covered.

[/quote]

In a few of the N7 missions, Firewalker missions, and the infamous Derelict Collector ship level, you are in space. Hell, the mission where you find the prothean orb really pisses me off, because you're basically on a moon.


Now, for Liara, she never goes into the vacuum. She does, however, board a giant ship flying in the wake of a massive storm of a planet on the verge of becoming a garden world. No telling what kind of toxins are being sprayed around.
[/quote]
[quote]
None of the N7 missions or firewalker missions take place in vacuum, nor does the Derelict Collector ship.  Being a moon does not mean that there isn't atmosphere. -our- moon doesn't have one, but lots of other moons in our solar system -do-.[/quote]

The Derelict Ship problem that most people have is that the SR2 shuttle lands IN a vacuum exposed tunnel. There is no door. There is no Mass Effect field (according to EDI). The characters simply run and jump on and off the shuttle. They are exposed to vacuum. 


[quote]The collectors fly.  Using wings.  There -has- to be air in the collector ship, and you never go through any kind of airlock.  Just because you don't fly through a visible field doesn't mean there isn't something keeping the ship's atmosphere contained.  There's also the fact that your weapons make sound, and given that the one time you -are- in vaccum in this game, the devs went out of their way to cut out all sound except shep's breathing, I think that lends credence to the point.[/quote]

I'm not convinced that this isn't a simple design oversight. In the beginning of ME2, Shepard walks around space, and all sounds are dimmed/silent. I liked this. It was a balance between realism, and science fiction. HOWEVER, the Normandy makes sounds when it flies around, and gets into a dog fight with the Collector Ship. There is no way around this. Hence, I'm guessing that it was just a design choice. 

[quote]Your squaddies are never in vacuum in this game.  Ever.  That is a scientifically verifiable -fact-.  No conjecture needed.  You can argue about radiation hazards or toxic atmospheres, but not vacuum.[/quote]

Yes. They. Are. At the beginning of ME2, Joker, in a T shirt and sweats, watches Shepard get blasted away from the escape pod WITH THE DOOR OPEN, AWAY FROM THE ME field THAT WAS CONSERVING HIS LIFE IN THE **** PIT. Design oversight likely. 

On top of that, Kopis, the moon Shepard finds the prothean relic, has almost NO atmosphere or gravity -- although it does have a relatively suitable temperature of 50 C*. 

Then there's the derelict research ship in an N7 mission, in which an AI slaughtered the crew, then shut off the life support (I'm assuming that that means oxygen).

An there's the Reaper corpse. That thing still has ME fields, which make life sustainable. But isn't it hovering over the poisonous clouds of a brown dwarf? 

The simple fact is that the crew needs customizable armor. I kinda get what people are saying when they say that they don't want cliche' armor to return. But then at least make every character like Shepard, with unique outfits that can be tailored to a players taste, and dictated by the environment they will be exposed to if necessary. Please PLEASE don't just give us those crappy mission prep scenes again, Bioware. I don't want to look at paintings of my characters, and have them switch between 3 costumes. If Liara's gonna wear that lab coat, then at least let us be able to choose the color, stripe design, helmet type, and plating options to go with it.

[Ahglock]

Rurik_Niall wrote...

Honestly I'd just leave him on the ship in any environment that would require his chest to be covered. I'd prefer my assassin alive and able to perform his primary job, assassinating things, than laying in the medbay because I stupidly ordered him to disregard Chakwas' advice. Anyway, this is with regards to regular combat here, and in regular combat Thane's current outfit makes sense given his intended role and his condition.

I undewrstand what you are getting at, but are there any assassination style missions?  Pretty much everything is special forces direct assaults, and for that you need armor.  I'll call that a hope for ME3, if missions could be accomplished with stealth and assassination or door kicking in style it would be awesome.  

[lolwut666]

@100k

There is oxygen on Kopis and the rogue AI base. On Kopis, you can listen to the logs left by one of the doctors (not to mention the missiles exploding), and on the AI base you could listen to the AI's voice.

As for the Reaper corpse, maybe the poisonous cloud didn't make it into the ship; and if it did, perhaps it was not hazardous enough to bother the characters.

Furthermore, you keep talking about lack of oxygen, but that's why they're wearing those oxygen masks.

I understand that you want armors on the next game, but your arguments make no sense.

[didymos1120]

Heavensrun wrote...
-our- moon doesn't have one, but lots of other moons in our solar system -do-.

Well, it does technically.  It's just very much negligible, such that "none" is close enough for most purposes:

http://en.wikipedia....ere_of_the_Moon