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Seriously? It's a toxic atmosphere!


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#26
Fiery Phoenix

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Terror_K wrote...

(...)

Yeah, they really do need to get over this whole "rule of cool" affair with ME3 and start making the universe believable, consistent and logical again instead of turning it into a farce.

ME1 was already believable in this regard. Basically everyone had armor and breathing masks in dangerous environments, and you had no choice about it. I'd really like that to make a return in ME3.

In ME2, this is part of the reason I take certain squadmates on certain missions -- to make things a little more consistent and realistic in my game. For example, I never take Jack or Miranda to that one N7 mission on the planet with the toxic atmosphere. Not because I dislike them, but because it wouldn't make sense to take them. Garrus, Zaeed, Tali, and Grunt are the ones I usually take on missions where vacuum or potential environmental hostility is involved.

#27
Jebel Krong

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Fiery Phoenix wrote...

Terror_K wrote...

(...)

Yeah, they really do need to get over this whole "rule of cool" affair with ME3 and start making the universe believable, consistent and logical again instead of turning it into a farce.

ME1 was already believable in this regard. Basically everyone had armor and breathing masks in dangerous environments, and you had no choice about it. I'd really like that to make a return in ME3.

In ME2, this is part of the reason I take certain squadmates on certain missions -- to make things a little more consistent and realistic in my game. For example, I never take Jack or Miranda to that one N7 mission on the planet with the toxic atmosphere. Not because I dislike them, but because it wouldn't make sense to take them. Garrus, Zaeed, Tali, and Grunt are the ones I usually take on missions where vacuum or potential environmental hostility is involved.


if they want to do that that's fine, but that also means taking away the option to play "dress up power rangers" ME1-style with your squad, too - because how realistic is that? - you can't have it both ways.

Modifié par Jebel Krong, 14 avril 2011 - 01:58 .


#28
Skarwael

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CPT Eightball wrote...
Landing on a planet with a toxic atmosphere with a thick acidic fog doesn't seem like the kind of place where you would want to leave your eyes or skin exposed .
Take a look a Miranda's, Mordin's, or Jack's equipment when they enter a hostile atmosphere or environment. It just doesn't fit.


Mass effect fields!

#29
pChar

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mass effect fields. done. case closed. move on.
If you wont settle with that....Its a god damn game, enjoy it.

#30
GodWood

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Jebel Krong wrote...
if they want to do that that's fine, but that also means taking away the option to play "dress up power rangers" ME1-style with your squad, too - because how realistic is that? - you can't have it both ways.

How is it unrealistic?

pChar wrote...
If you wont settle with that....Its a god damn game, enjoy it.

The ridiculous outfits obviously hinder some player's enjoyment of the game and thus they'd like it to be like how it originally was.
If what your companions wear is of no concern to you than I don't see why it should bother you if if there are people who would like it to return to it's more realistic approach.

Modifié par GodWood, 14 avril 2011 - 03:13 .


#31
Fiery Phoenix

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GodWood wrote...

Jebel Krong wrote...
if they want to do that that's fine, but that also means taking away the option to play "dress up power rangers" ME1-style with your squad, too - because how realistic is that? - you can't have it both ways.

How is it unrealistic?

Yup, I'd like to see your answer about that, Krong.

#32
Jebel Krong

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because grown-up people aren't told what to wear?

you may not have liked all the styles, but the distinctive outfits matched and added to - or reinforced - the personalities of the individuals, rather than the bland re-colouring power-rangers attires of ME1.

Modifié par Jebel Krong, 14 avril 2011 - 03:14 .


#33
chaosbeing

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I agree with the OP, and it drives me nuts too. There's so much good detail in the ME universe, and then things like this completely break immersion. I'm ferverently hoping for a return to more of a ME1 style as well: armor in battle with full helmets in harsh environments. The ME2 style unique outfits can be used on the Normandy, and even in other non-combat areas (walking around the Citadel.)

#34
Fiery Phoenix

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Jebel Krong wrote...

because grown-up people aren't told what to wear?

Weak one. Try again.

#35
Jebel Krong

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Fiery Phoenix wrote...

Jebel Krong wrote...

because grown-up people aren't told what to wear?

Weak one. Try again.


weak opinion is weak.

#36
Fiery Phoenix

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Jebel Krong wrote...

(...)

weak opinion is weak.

I see you've edited your post. At least it makes sense now. But I still disagree.

#37
Whammo

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Jebel Krong wrote...

because grown-up people aren't told what to wear?


I'm pretty sure if your commanding officer tells you to wear a uniform, you don't really have a choice in the matter.

#38
GodWood

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Jebel Krong wrote...
because grown-up people aren't told what to wear?

Yes they are.

Besides, one can pretend the character themself chose that armor or you can pretend that that's the official armour of Shepard's team etc.
Whatever your reasoning it doesn't matter so long as the player has the choice of what you want them to wear and it follows the game's already established lore.

you may not have liked all the styles, but the distinctive outfits matched and added to the personalities of the individuals, rather than the bland re-colouring power-rangers attires of ME1.

And they can have their stupid personality adding clothes when they're on the Normandy.
When in combat however they should be armoured.

Modifié par GodWood, 14 avril 2011 - 03:22 .


#39
Lvl20DM

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I believe at one point they were going to have closed helmets/suits for the party, but then cut it because of time/resources. In the concept art, you can see various helmet designs for Mordin, as an example. As others have pointed out, it would only impact a handful of missions.
In ME3 I'd like to see hazard suits for all party members (at least for those that will actually be in hazardous environments) but I don't consider it the highest priority.

#40
_mgd00

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I've come to warn you about MAN-GIRAFFE-DOG!! It's the single greatest threat to humanity!! RUN AWAY!!

Image IPB

More Serial than ever guys.

#41
Jebel Krong

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GodWood wrote...

Jebel Krong wrote...
because grown-up people aren't told what to wear?

Yes they are.

Besides, one can pretend the character themself chose that armor or you can pretend that that's the official armour of Shepard's team etc.
Whatever your reasoning it doesn't matter so long as the player has the choice of what you want them to wear and it follows the game's already established lore.

you may not have liked all the styles, but the distinctive outfits matched and added to the personalities of the individuals, rather than the bland re-colouring power-rangers attires of ME1.

And they can have their stupid personality adding clothes when they're on the Normandy.
When in combat however they should be armoured.


1. not the people your recruit in me2, you wouldn't.
2. it's not a dating/personal attire management sim.
3. "you can pretend..." is crappy reasoning.
4. certain squadmates' combat roles don't suit armour - or heavy armour at least - thane, jack, miranda are 3 that immediately spring to mind: not everyone is a front-line soldier, so once again your reasoning is faulty.

#42
GodWood

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Jebel Krong wrote...
1. not the people your recruit in me2, you wouldn't.

I don't see how anyone could believe this to be true.
No person in RL would turn down armour when facing the conditions Shepard and Co faces.
What possible reasoning would Miranda have for staying in a skintight catsuit with thigh-high boots and her hair out when fighting a Thresher Maw?


2. it's not a dating/personal attire management sim.

Inventory management is a common feature in RPGs...


3. "you can pretend..." is crappy reasoning.

...so is using your imagination


4. certain squadmates' combat roles don't suit armour - or heavy armour at least - thane, jack, miranda are 3 that immediately spring to mind: not everyone is a front-line soldier, so once again your reasoning is faulty

ME1 addressed this by having 'Light Armour' Image IPB
(And no neither Thane, Jack or Miranda's outfits are light armour)

Modifié par GodWood, 14 avril 2011 - 03:58 .


#43
xentar

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pChar wrote...
mass effect fields. done. case closed. move on.
If you wont settle with that....Its a god damn game, enjoy it.

Some people simply can't.

#44
rubydog1

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I guess I don't mind Mordin cruising around in a facemask in a hostile environment in ME2 as much as I minded a professional soldier (male and female) running around in pink and white armor in ME1.

I restarted ME2 to fiddle around with some things over the weekend and there was Kaidan, running around Ashley Williams style in the burning Normandy I. Image IPB

#45
Guest_Nyoka_*

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*sigh*

#46
Rurik_Niall

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rubydog1 wrote...

I guess I don't mind Mordin cruising around in a facemask in a hostile environment in ME2 as much as I minded a professional soldier (male and female) running around in pink and white armor in ME1.

I restarted ME2 to fiddle around with some things over the weekend and there was Kaidan, running around Ashley Williams style in the burning Normandy I. Image IPB


Honestly I always found the ones with camouflage patterns like the Predator X far worse at breaking my immersion, camouflage like that only works in the environments that it's designed for, how much time do you recall spending in a forest or jungle in Mass Effect? Running around Noveria in forest camouflage stands out just as much as the Halo Barbie armour Ashley is so fond of.

#47
Darkstar Aurora

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Mass effect fields CAN protect against space-vaccum conditions, hazardous gases, liquids, wind velocity, and extremes in temperature.  If they could not then:
* Joker would have been dead in the Prologue (Normandy cabin pressure maintained by a barrier)
* Mordin would spontaneously combust every time his omni-tool generated an Incineration blast (heated particles contained in a mass effect field)
* Shepard and the team would freeze to death every time s/he powered up the Avalanche heavy weapon (super-cooled particles contained within a mass effect field).
* Shepard and the away team would be sucked into the Tartarus debris field when attempting to engage the Oculus (breaches contained by mass effect fields)
* The crew would die during the epilogue (mass effect fields covering breaches in hull)

Atmosphere, gases, chemicals, and particles have mass; heat and cold are transfered by contact with rapidly moving or slowly moving particles.  If it has mass it can be contained, repulsed, or moved by a mass effect field.

The reason why the Codex entry for Kinetic Barriers states they "do not protect against temperature, gases, or toxins" has nothing to do with the application of mass effect fields themselves. It is because the Codex entry is based on the original ME1 concept for kinetic barriers, and specifically there use in combat.  In that definition they  were battery powered emitters that created a temporary mass-raising field in response to velocity sensors in your combat hardsuit.  They could not normally protect against these things because they were not constantly generated/replenshed.

This is somewhat different in Mass Effect 2.  In terms of characters like Jack (and other biotic specialists), she is not protected by a shield-producing combat hardsuit at all.  Instead she is shielded by a passively generated biotic barrier.  We know this barrier is generated/replenished continuously in combat because it would be impossible for her to sense every single protectile moving from every direction on the battlefield AND then rapidly raise a short-lived barrier to stop it.  A biotic who can negate the mass of a YMIR mech, Krogan, or Geth Prime with a telekinetic field should be equally capable of raising the mass of surrounding air molecules with negiligible effort.

In terms of Tech specialists who use shields, it can be assumed they use a more advanced kinetic barrier system.  We know that Omni-Tools provided a shield bonus in ME1, and if a character is capable of overloading the shields/weapon systems of an enemy they should likewise be capable of re-routing a minor portion of that power to create an atmostphere-containing kinetic barrier.  Air has less mass than a YMIR Mech missile, therefore keeping it in place would hardly seem a strain on power cells.

As for armor in general and the exposed skin on Grunt, Samara, Miranda, or Thane is no less "unrealistic" in combat than the option for Shepard to go an entire mission without wearing a helmet when fighting snipers with smart-targeting VI tech built into their weapons.  A headshot is just as deadly as a heart-shot, and yet no one complains that helmets are not mandatory, even though Mark Vanderloo looks better without one.
In terms of the specifics of exposed areas as a danger, both in combat or enviroment I would say the following;
-With Grunt, a Krogan physiology may have tougher skin on their limbs, or the ability for blood vessels to retract deeper to avoid exposure and loss of body heat.
-Samara, or Asari in general, may have a high concentration of element zero nodules around their heart, lungs, or equivalent vital organs.  The involuntary stimulation of these vitals by neural impulses may serve to explain why they are able to maintain barriers passively, and why she is able to leave these areas exposed.
-In terms of Miranda's exposed skin it  would not be unrealistic for localized kinetic barriers, or just transparent-yet-resilient metamaterials to shield "exposed areas" but still allowing for personalized style.  In Miranda's case she makes extensive use of her sexuality as a tool and weapon, and whether people would want to admit it or not the split-second neurological responses of someone seeing an attractive person may create all the time needed to attain an advantage in a firefight, or delude and enemy into targeting other hostiles first in the hope of capturing "that one" alive.  Miranda may also have certain biological enhancements from here genetic modification to have augmented pheremone production, and there may be concentrations of pheremone producing sweat glands near her neck and chest, which would explain her sexual appeal beyond physical bodyshape.

As for the physical material itself, the fact of the matter is Miranda's attire may actually be more realistic in a future setting than the medieval-era concepts of armor some people demand as being "appropriate".  Scientific discoveries in the real world today have given us materials like graphine--a material formed into a sheet with the thickness of an atom which has more strength than steel, and yet has the visual "flimsiness" of plastic wrap.  We also have conceptual strides and discoveries in Metamaterials: materials created on a nano-scale which--because of their shape and sub-molecular size--could be capable of redirect things like sound waves, seismic waves, radiation, light, or kinetic force.  That may seem "implausible" to some, but I imagine if you traveled back in time 500 years and told someone that a Kevlar chestpiece is what people in the future use as "armor" today they would probably raise an eyebrow as well.

Modifié par Darkstar Aurora, 14 avril 2011 - 11:31 .


#48
StowyMcStowstow

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Jebel Krong wrote...

Vena_86 wrote...

eye basher wrote...

OMG! all this nitpicking.


Go visit the north pole in shorts and t-shirt and call it nitpicking again.


or how about your remember it's a GAME focused on CHARACTER INTERACTION and CONVERSATIONS. which is a bit hard to do if you can't see anyone's face, hence all the boggle with the one-piece DLC armours being useless for THAT VERY REASON.

So true! Common Sense has no place in these kinds of games!

#49
gosimmons

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Jebel Krong wrote...

or how about your remember it's a GAME focused on CHARACTER INTERACTION and CONVERSATIONS. which is a bit hard to do if you can't see anyone's face, hence all the boggle with the one-piece DLC armours being useless for THAT VERY REASON.

Yeah, that argument would hold more ground if the camera's main point of interest was  Miranda's face.  >> 

Modifié par gosimmons, 15 avril 2011 - 12:35 .


#50
100k

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Darkstar Aurora wrote...

Mass effect fields CAN protect against space-vaccum conditions, hazardous gases, liquids, wind velocity, and extremes in temperature.  If they could not then:
* Joker would have been dead in the Prologue (Normandy cabin pressure maintained by a barrier)
* Mordin would spontaneously combust every time his omni-tool generated an Incineration blast (heated particles contained in a mass effect field)
* Shepard and the team would freeze to death every time s/he powered up the Avalanche heavy weapon (super-cooled particles contained within a mass effect field).
* Shepard and the away team would be sucked into the Tartarus debris field when attempting to engage the Oculus (breaches contained by mass effect fields)
* The crew would die during the epilogue (mass effect fields covering breaches in hull)

Atmosphere, gases, chemicals, and particles have mass; heat and cold are transfered by contact with rapidly moving or slowly moving particles.  If it has mass it can be contained, repulsed, or moved by a mass effect field.

The reason why the Codex entry for Kinetic Barriers states they "do not protect against temperature, gases, or toxins" has nothing to do with the application of mass effect fields themselves. It is because the Codex entry is based on the original ME1 concept for kinetic barriers, and specifically there use in combat.  In that definition they  were battery powered emitters that created a temporary mass-raising field in response to velocity sensors in your combat hardsuit.  They could not normally protect against these things because they were not constantly generated/replenshed.

This is somewhat different in Mass Effect 2.  In terms of characters like Jack (and other biotic specialists), she is not protected by a shield-producing combat hardsuit at all.  Instead she is shielded by a passively generated biotic barrier.  We know this barrier is generated/replenished continuously in combat because it would be impossible for her to sense every single protectile moving from every direction on the battlefield AND then rapidly raise a short-lived barrier to stop it.  A biotic who can negate the mass of a YMIR mech, Krogan, or Geth Prime with a telekinetic field should be equally capable of raising the mass of surrounding air molecules with negiligible effort.

In terms of Tech specialists who use shields, it can be assumed they use a more advanced kinetic barrier system.  We know that Omni-Tools provided a shield bonus in ME1, and if a character is capable of overloading the shields/weapon systems of an enemy they should likewise be capable of re-routing a minor portion of that power to create an atmostphere-containing kinetic barrier.  Air has less mass than a YMIR Mech missile, therefore keeping it in place would hardly seem a strain on power cells.

As for armor in general and the exposed skin on Grunt, Samara, Miranda, or Thane is no less "unrealistic" in combat than the option for Shepard to go an entire mission without wearing a helmet when fighting snipers with smart-targeting VI tech built into their weapons.  A headshot is just as deadly as a heart-shot, and yet no one complains that helmets are not mandatory, even though Mark Vanderloo looks better without one.
In terms of the specifics of exposed areas as a danger, both in combat or enviroment I would say the following;
-With Grunt, a Krogan physiology may have tougher skin on their limbs, or the ability for blood vessels to retract deeper to avoid exposure and loss of body heat.
-Samara, or Asari in general, may have a high concentration of element zero nodules around their heart, lungs, or equivalent vital organs.  The involuntary stimulation of these vitals by neural impulses may serve to explain why they are able to maintain barriers passively, and why she is able to leave these areas exposed.
-In terms of Miranda's exposed skin it  would not be unrealistic for localized kinetic barriers, or just transparent-yet-resilient metamaterials to shield "exposed areas" but still allowing for personalized style.  In Miranda's case she makes extensive use of her sexuality as a tool and weapon, and whether people would want to admit it or not the split-second neurological responses of someone seeing an attractive person may create all the time needed to attain an advantage in a firefight, or delude and enemy into targeting other hostiles first in the hope of capturing "that one" alive.  Miranda may also have certain biological enhancements from here genetic modification to have augmented pheremone production, and there may be concentrations of pheremone producing sweat glands near her neck and chest, which would explain her sexual appeal beyond physical bodyshape.

As for the physical material itself, the fact of the matter is Miranda's attire may actually be more realistic in a future setting than the medieval-era concepts of armor some people demand as being "appropriate".  Scientific discoveries in the real world today have given us materials like graphine--a material formed into a sheet with the thickness of an atom which has more strength than steel, and yet has the visual "flimsiness" of plastic wrap.  We also have conceptual strides and discoveries in Metamaterials: materials created on a nano-scale which--because of their shape and sub-molecular size--could be capable of redirect things like sound waves, seismic waves, radiation, light, or kinetic force.  That may seem "implausible" to some, but I imagine if you traveled back in time 500 years and told someone that a Kevlar chestpiece is what people in the future use as "armor" today they would probably raise an eyebrow as well.


Hmmm...you make some good points. I'm still not convinced that a ME field, or a biotic barrier would protect the user against all outside forces. It would have to be like your own personal atmosphere that you maintained without ever using up. Also, if someone took down your kinetic barrier while you were in the vacuum, or a acidic atmosphere, then you would die. 


It is, however VERY CLEAR in the game that barriers have little to no effect on the environment one travels in. If it weren't so, then Shepard would never need to be fully suited before entering a hostile place. When Shepard goes into the geth ship, he is fully equipped for zero G and atmosphere interactions. When Shepard goes into space, he is fully clothed, and helmed. When Shepard lands on a hostile planet, he is fully suited. Why? Because the devs knew that Shepard needed to be fully prep'd for these situations. It is likely a large design over sight that everyone else in the cast merely got breathing masks. Otherwise, Shepard wouldn't need a full mask and armor in space.