283 réponses à ce sujet

[Rurik_Niall]

Or alternatively Shepard just chooses to wear full armour and helmet because it's what s/he's used to wearing. I could wear shorts whenever I go outside, but I choose to wear jeans because I feel more comfortable in them.

[didymos1120]

Bluko wrote...

Considering it seems like they're re-using Liara's Shadow Broker outfit for ME3, I'm not holding my breath.

So?  Does that somehow prevent them from making her a full-coverage helmet for hostile environments?

[100k]

didymos1120 wrote...

Bluko wrote...

Considering it seems like they're re-using Liara's Shadow Broker outfit for ME3, I'm not holding my breath.

So?  Does that somehow prevent them from making her a full-coverage helmet for hostile environments?

Hell, at the beginning of ME2 she wore a fully bad ass commando suit.

[Heavensrun]

CPT Eightball wrote...

Sometimes, it's the little things in a game that drastically change how you feel about a game.
This time, one of the things that has bothered the heck out of me in this game is the fact that all a character needs to prevent infection, chemical burns, eye irritation, and exposure to the extreme cold in the vacuum of space is a simple "rebreather" over the mouth and nose.

Landing on a planet with a toxic atmosphere with a thick acidic fog doesn't seem like the kind of place where you would want to leave your eyes or skin exposed .
Take a look a Miranda's, Mordin's, or Jack's equipment when they enter a hostile atmosphere or environment. It just doesn't fit.

I never saw anything to indicate to me that anyplace we landed had an -acidic- fog, and there's a difference between "we can't breath this" and "this is corrosive to human skin".  There's also every indication in game that barriers can hold in air, and finally, you are never, ever, at any point in this game, in the vacuum of space, except at the beginning when the normandy has been torn open, at which point you are wearing a full suit, complete with helmet.

[Terror_K]

Darkstar Aurora wrote...

Mass effect fields CAN protect against space-vaccum conditions, hazardous gases, liquids, wind velocity, and extremes in temperature.  If they could not then:
* Joker would have been dead in the Prologue (Normandy cabin pressure maintained by a barrier)
* Mordin would spontaneously combust every time his omni-tool generated an Incineration blast (heated particles contained in a mass effect field)
* Shepard and the team would freeze to death every time s/he powered up the Avalanche heavy weapon (super-cooled particles contained within a mass effect field).
* Shepard and the away team would be sucked into the Tartarus debris field when attempting to engage the Oculus (breaches contained by mass effect fields)
* The crew would die during the epilogue (mass effect fields covering breaches in hull)

Atmosphere, gases, chemicals, and particles have mass; heat and cold are transfered by contact with rapidly moving or slowly moving particles.  If it has mass it can be contained, repulsed, or moved by a mass effect field.

You do realise all your examples come from Mass Effect 2: the game that was particularly guilty of pushing realism aside for the whole "Rule of Cool" approach. Beyond that, in the cases of the first and last two points, these are stronger mass effect fields generated by the ship, probably of the same type on The Citadel that you see The Normandy pass through when docking in the original game. Aside from functioning differently, these require a lot of constant power to maintain, more than could be produced by the power supply of a suit of armour (or even less, in the case of non-armoured individuals who seem to have kinetic barriers still).

The reason why the Codex entry for Kinetic Barriers states they "do not protect against temperature, gases, or toxins" has nothing to do with the application of mass effect fields themselves. It is because the Codex entry is based on the original ME1 concept for kinetic barriers, and specifically there use in combat.  In that definition they  were battery powered emitters that created a temporary mass-raising field in response to velocity sensors in your combat hardsuit.  They could not normally protect against these things because they were not constantly generated/replenshed.

And kinetic barriers are no different in ME2: they're exactly the same.

This is somewhat different in Mass Effect 2.  In terms of characters like Jack (and other biotic specialists), she is not protected by a shield-producing combat hardsuit at all.  Instead she is shielded by a passively generated biotic barrier.  We know this barrier is generated/replenished continuously in combat because it would be impossible for her to sense every single protectile moving from every direction on the battlefield AND then rapidly raise a short-lived barrier to stop it.  A biotic who can negate the mass of a YMIR mech, Krogan, or Geth Prime with a telekinetic field should be equally capable of raising the mass of surrounding air molecules with negiligible effort.

It would take a lot of power to maintain a biotic barrier so strong as that, and in order to do this she'd have to be creating a near perfect vacuum, which would actually cause more harm than good on the event of it suddenly failing or her being shot. That's the only way she (or any other biotic) would be able to keep out pressure, air, temperature and radiation. There's no way a biotic could maintain such a strong, intense barrier for so long, it would take more than most standard biotic attacks would. We saw how much it took out of the biotic specialist just to keep the swarms out in the final mission after all.

In terms of Tech specialists who use shields, it can be assumed they use a more advanced kinetic barrier system.  We know that Omni-Tools provided a shield bonus in ME1, and if a character is capable of overloading the shields/weapon systems of an enemy they should likewise be capable of re-routing a minor portion of that power to create an atmostphere-containing kinetic barrier.  Air has less mass than a YMIR Mech missile, therefore keeping it in place would hardly seem a strain on power cells.

Again, you're assuming things here, and that still doesn't excuse the fact that it contradicts the codex. When the codex specifically states that this isn't the case then you can't just make up your own pseudoscience and say, "but it could if..." And again, you'd still have to be causing a perfect vacuum to keep out most of these things, which would cause other issues.

As for armor in general and the exposed skin on Grunt, Samara, Miranda, or Thane is no less "unrealistic" in combat than the option for Shepard to go an entire mission without wearing a helmet when fighting snipers with smart-targeting VI tech built into their weapons.  A headshot is just as deadly as a heart-shot, and yet no one complains that helmets are not mandatory, even though Mark Vanderloo looks better without one.

Fine. I can accept that. But at least seal the suits and make them airtight.

In terms of the specifics of exposed areas as a danger, both in combat or enviroment I would say the following;
-With Grunt, a Krogan physiology may have tougher skin on their limbs, or the ability for blood vessels to retract deeper to avoid exposure and loss of body heat.

I could accept that. krogan are tough, and Grunt is only slightly exposed anyway. Though I always wondered why they went to the effort of covering all of the rest of him and left only just arms exposed. It wouldn't have taken much effort to just cover them.

-Samara, or Asari in general, may have a high concentration of element zero nodules around their heart, lungs, or equivalent vital organs.  The involuntary stimulation of these vitals by neural impulses may serve to explain why they are able to maintain barriers passively, and why she is able to leave these areas exposed.

Pretty weak.

-In terms of Miranda's exposed skin it  would not be unrealistic for localized kinetic barriers, or just transparent-yet-resilient metamaterials to shield "exposed areas" but still allowing for personalized style.  In Miranda's case she makes extensive use of her sexuality as a tool and weapon, and whether people would want to admit it or not the split-second neurological responses of someone seeing an attractive person may create all the time needed to attain an advantage in a firefight, or delude and enemy into targeting other hostiles first in the hope of capturing "that one" alive.  Miranda may also have certain biological enhancements from here genetic modification to have augmented pheremone production, and there may be concentrations of pheremone producing sweat glands near her neck and chest, which would explain her sexual appeal beyond physical bodyshape.

No, that's just farcical.

As for the physical material itself, the fact of the matter is Miranda's attire may actually be more realistic in a future setting than the medieval-era concepts of armor some people demand as being "appropriate".  Scientific discoveries in the real world today have given us materials like graphine--a material formed into a sheet with the thickness of an atom which has more strength than steel, and yet has the visual "flimsiness" of plastic wrap.  We also have conceptual strides and discoveries in Metamaterials: materials created on a nano-scale which--because of their shape and sub-molecular size--could be capable of redirect things like sound waves, seismic waves, radiation, light, or kinetic force.  That may seem "implausible" to some, but I imagine if you traveled back in time 500 years and told someone that a Kevlar chestpiece is what people in the future use as "armor" today they would probably raise an eyebrow as well.

Then what's the harm in simply covering her cleavage and giving her a proper helmet when necessary? The same goes with Samara. Doing so wouldn;t change their "unique appearance" and it would seal them away from the dangers of space. That's all that really needs to be done.

Although there's also the matters of "where are your kinetic barriers coming from?" for some squaddies (isn't so much an issue with biotics) and "how are you getting medi-gel when the codex states that the new dispenser system that explains regenerating health is an armour factor?" (seriously, where exactly on Miranda and Jack's bodies is there any medi-gel being stored?)

[Emyer]

didymos1120 wrote...

Bluko wrote...

Considering it seems like they're re-using Liara's Shadow Broker outfit for ME3, I'm not holding my breath.

So?  Does that somehow prevent them from making her a full-coverage helmet for hostile environments?

I think his/hers/its point is that because BW are re-using Liara's ME2 outfit, he/she/it assumes that they will re-use the designs of the other ME2 companions as well, meaning the return of belt-bra Jack and other exposed armors.


Personally I just chalk it up to a Mass Effect field and continue on playing, that's one thing that never bothered me at all.

[Terror_K]

Heavensrun wrote...

I never saw anything to indicate to me that anyplace we landed had an -acidic- fog, and there's a difference between "we can't breath this" and "this is corrosive to human skin".  There's also every indication in game that barriers can hold in air, and finally, you are never, ever, at any point in this game, in the vacuum of space, except at the beginning when the normandy has been torn open, at which point you are wearing a full suit, complete with helmet.

The planet Tarith has an atmosphere of almost pure chrlorine gas, which is also not only poisonous to breathe but is rather harmful to human skin (not to mention your eyes, since many of the squaddies just wear a breather). Since kinetic barriers do NOT protect against toxins, and do NOT hold in air (despite your "every indication" comment, the codex outright states they don't), then any squaddie on said planet not in air-tight, sealed gear is being directly exposed to these elements.

[Rurik_Niall]

Just to point out, you should listen to that codex entry a little more thoroughly, it states that they don't protect against extremes of temperature, toxins, or radiation, it never says they provide no protection against them.

[Whereto]

My heart sunk when I saw the liara pic in GI. We have been asking for it since most finished me2, yet bioware are persistent in giving characters armor that isn't armor, just a fashion statement. Prove me wrong bioware,please

[Terror_K]

Emyer wrote...

didymos1120 wrote...

Bluko wrote...

Considering it seems like they're re-using Liara's Shadow Broker outfit for ME3, I'm not holding my breath.

So?  Does that somehow prevent them from making her a full-coverage helmet for hostile environments?

I think his/hers/its point is that because BW are re-using Liara's ME2 outfit, he/she/it assumes that they will re-use the designs of the other ME2 companions as well, meaning the return of belt-bra Jack and other exposed armors.

This concerns me too. I mean, it concerned me that despite all the complains that by the time LotSB came along Liara still didn't have a proper helmet and still had just a silly little breathing mask. Makes me wonder whether the devs are even listening at all. If they hadn't solved the problem back them, what are the odds they are going to now?

Personally I just chalk it up to a Mass Effect field and continue on playing, that's one thing that never bothered me at all.

Except that in order to do that you have to twist the universe's lore just to suit yourself, since the lore outright states that it doesn't work that way. So you're basically saying in order to keep the universe intact for yourself you have to twist it into something that doesn't fit, which to me seems rather ironic.

[Rurik_Niall]

Again I point out, it never states they provide no protection at all, only from extremes, and extremes is a very vague term seeing as it's relative to the mass effect field and not to any particular species. Relative to the human body extremes are anything above boiling and below freezing, relative to a mass effect field extremes could easily be double what it would be to a human.

[Seboist]

While we're on the subject of unfitting outfits, anyone else finds it odd that Morinth is more modestly dressed than Samara? It's ironic that Samara in her large cleavage showing V neck and high heels labels Morinth a "hedonist" and a degenerate.

Shouldn't it be the other way around?

[Whereto]

Rurik_Niall wrote...

Just to point out, you should listen to that codex entry a little more thoroughly, it states that they don't protect against extremes of temperature, toxins, or radiation, it never says they provide no protection against them.

Im not sure you can get much more extreme than the "absolute" zero of space. Then to add to this, if you were close enough to a star to actually get warm, i doubt youll survive the radition, as it would be several times what you could survive.  

[Manic Sheep]

Whereto wrote...

My heart sunk when I saw the liara pic in GI. We have been asking for it since most finished me2, yet bioware are persistent in giving characters armor that isn't armor, just a fashion statement. Prove me wrong bioware,please

 

What? Liara’s armour looks just as protective as the ME1 'light armor' was.

Modifié par Manic Sheep, 15 avril 2011 - 02:27 .

[Rurik_Niall]

Technically space isn't absolute zero, and besides which freezing would actually be of little importance in space. Since there's so little to conduct heat you'd lose body heat quite slowly, so really all the mass effect field has to do is keep your body heat in, which the warmth of a human body is by no means an extreme temperature and therefor well within the theoretical limits of the field.

[DxWill10]

looking cool > realism, duh

Edit:  Does this really bother you that much?  If so, I am sympathetic for you.  It must suck to be annoyed at little stuff all the time.

Don't sweat the small stuff?

Modifié par DxWill10, 15 avril 2011 - 02:23 .

[didymos1120]

Manic Sheep wrote...

What? Liara’s armour looks just as protective as the ME1 'light armor' was.

Yeah, that was one of the many things Lair did right.  Liara actually had combat gear.  Her outfit is quite clearly armor.

[Terror_K]

Space is the most hostile of environments. It is freezing cold, close to absolute zero (around -273 degrees Celsius), there is a vacuum, so no oxygen, and the amount of lethal radiation from stars is very high. There is no way a kinetic barrier would compensate for all of that.

[Terror_K]

didymos1120 wrote...

Manic Sheep wrote...

What? Liara’s armour looks just as protective as the ME1 'light armor' was.

Yeah, that was one of the many things Lair did right.  Liara actually had combat gear.  Her outfit is quite clearly armor.

Yeah, but it's all wasted and ruined by the fact they didn't give her a proper helmet and just slapped a retarded breathing mask on her. Just like with Appearance Pack #2 where they finally gave Miranda some armour, but botched and wasted the whole thing because she still only had a stupid breathing mask in hazadous places.

[Captain_Obvious_au]

Jebel Krong wrote...

because grown-up people aren't told what to wear?

I assume from this comment you've never had a job?

Anyway completely agree with the OP - it was done so well in ME1, and Bioware shat themselves with it in ME2. Let's look at the final mission of ME1 for example. Regardless of whether you wear the helmets in combat or not, as soon as you're exposed to a no-atmosphere environment, the sealed helmets come on. Yet when Liara and Ash make comments, I can still quite clearly see their eyes, which ironically Bioware continuously tries to cover up on Shep in ME2.

There really was nothing to be gained by doing the completely unrealistic "I can survive in space with a gas mask" approach, and a lot of credibility and realism lost in-game.

[Rurik_Niall]

Terror_K wrote...

Space is the most hostile of environments. It is freezing cold, close to absolute zero (around -273 degrees Celsius), there is a vacuum, so no oxygen, and the amount of lethal radiation from stars is very high. There is no way a kinetic barrier would compensate for all of that.

And your figures on the capabilities of a mass effect field come from where? And for that matter at what point is your squad ever exposed to space itself for more than a few seconds? Never. The closest you come are space stations that lack an atmosphere but still provide protection from space.

[didymos1120]

Terror_K wrote...
Yeah, but it's all wasted and ruined by the fact they didn't give her a proper helmet and just slapped a retarded breathing mask on her. Just like with Appearance Pack #2 where they finally gave Miranda some armour, but botched and wasted the whole thing because she still only had a stupid breathing mask in hazadous places.

Yes, well, not all of us find the breathing mask thing quite so upsetting that it instantly nullifies anything else that was done well.  "[W]asted and ruined" for you.  Minor flaw to me.

[Heavensrun]

Terror_K wrote...

Heavensrun wrote...

I never saw anything to indicate to me that anyplace we landed had an -acidic- fog, and there's a difference between "we can't breath this" and "this is corrosive to human skin".  There's also every indication in game that barriers can hold in air, and finally, you are never, ever, at any point in this game, in the vacuum of space, except at the beginning when the normandy has been torn open, at which point you are wearing a full suit, complete with helmet.

The planet Tarith has an atmosphere of almost pure chrlorine gas, which is also not only poisonous to breathe but is rather harmful to human skin (not to mention your eyes, since many of the squaddies just wear a breather). Since kinetic barriers do NOT protect against toxins, and do NOT hold in air (despite your "every indication" comment, the codex outright states they don't), then any squaddie on said planet not in air-tight, sealed gear is being directly exposed to these elements.

Alright, I'll give you that Tarith's atmo is corrosive.  How much of a problem that is, though, depends on how high the concentrations are in the atmosphere, and the codex entry just says "relatively high", which begs the question "relatively to what?" 

And I didn't say "kinetic barriers" hold in air, I said "barriers", which is to say that there -are- atmo-contraining barriers in the game.  And if we can have an invisible human sized/shaped shield on our characters that can protect against projectiles travelling at high velocities, it isn't a big stretch to think that we could also have one we could turn on that protects our skin from toxic atmospheres.

(edited for minor typo correction.)

Modifié par Heavensrun, 15 avril 2011 - 02:43 .

[Emyer]

Terror_K wrote...

Emyer wrote...

didymos1120 wrote...

Bluko wrote...

Considering it seems like they're re-using Liara's Shadow Broker outfit for ME3, I'm not holding my breath.

So?  Does that somehow prevent them from making her a full-coverage helmet for hostile environments?

I think his/hers/its point is that because BW are re-using Liara's ME2 outfit, he/she/it assumes that they will re-use the designs of the other ME2 companions as well, meaning the return of belt-bra Jack and other exposed armors.

This concerns me too. I mean, it concerned me that despite all the complains that by the time LotSB came along Liara still didn't have a proper helmet and still had just a silly little breathing mask. Makes me wonder whether the devs are even listening at all. If they hadn't solved the problem back them, what are the odds they are going to now?

Personally I just chalk it up to a Mass Effect field and continue on playing, that's one thing that never bothered me at all.

Except that in order to do that you have to twist the universe's lore just to suit yourself, since the lore outright states that it doesn't work that way. So you're basically saying in order to keep the universe intact for yourself you have to twist it into something that doesn't fit, which to me seems rather ironic.

Kinetic shields/biotics/some other sci-magic barrier then *shrug*  inb4theydon'tworkthatwayeither

My point is more that it's something that never bothered me, I never even thought about it until I read people complaining about it in the forums, I understand how it might upset some people, I have my nitpicks too, but this isn't one of them.


To be honest, if I had to choose between a party of unique looking characters and a party wearing "generic armor #5", I'd choose the unique looking characters, even if the cost is some big suspend of disbelief at times, of course if BW could redesign them to have more armor while managing to keep their "vibes" intact then I'm all for it.

Modifié par Emyer, 15 avril 2011 - 02:41 .

[Heavensrun]

Terror_K wrote...

Space is the most hostile of environments. It is freezing cold, close to absolute zero (around -273 degrees Celsius), there is a vacuum, so no oxygen, and the amount of lethal radiation from stars is very high. There is no way a kinetic barrier would compensate for all of that.

Actually, -273 degrees celcius -is- absolute zero..  Space is a bit above that.  The amount of lethal radiation from stars would depend on where you -are-, but for the most part, I'll agree with that.

This is moot, of course, since at no point in the game is anyone not in a full enviro-suit exposed to the rigors of actual space.