283 réponses à ce sujet

[Whereto]

My main problem with liaras armor Is I like hard plate, her LotSB seemed more like fabric and I doubt it would do much against bullets or the elements. Also @Rurik, ya but what happens when the shields go down? You start immediately losing body heat, if your close to a sun you'll get a good dose of radiation and to top it all off, your clothing is going to have a few holes in it. I doubt u have much chance as soon as those shields go down. That's why hard suits and helmets are important. Oh and yes DxWill, it is important to me for them to wear hard suits, as it breaks my immersion in a other wise semi "believable" world

[didymos1120]

Terror_K wrote...
 It is freezing cold, close to absolute zero (around -273 degrees Celsius)

I really wish people would quit saying "space is freezing cold".  It's really rather inaccurate.  Space doesn't properly have a temperature, and objects do not insta-freeze.  Yes, they will reach near-absolute-zero if not exposed to any significant source of radiation, but it will take quite a while before they do.  One of largest problems faced by spacecraft is in fact heat: it's kind of a pain to get rid of it rapidly in space.

[Rurik_Niall]

And who says the shields would go down? Kinetic barriers act by repulsing, the barriers used to keep bullets out would repel outside forces, the ones used for keeping in body heat would be reversed, and most likely completely separate from your combat barriers, two different power supplies and functions, and there's nothing short of a power supply failure which would bring it down. Again though, this is all a moot point because at no time at all during the game is anyone exposed to these conditions for more than a few seconds, you're always either inside or planet side.

[Zanallen]

Whereto wrote...

My main problem with liaras armor Is I like hard plate, her LotSB seemed more like fabric and I doubt it would do much against bullets or the elements. Also @Rurik, ya but what happens when the shields go down? You start immediately losing body heat, if your close to a sun you'll get a good dose of radiation and to top it all off, your clothing is going to have a few holes in it. I doubt u have much chance as soon as those shields go down. That's why hard suits and helmets are important. Oh and yes DxWill, it is important to me for them to wear hard suits, as it breaks my immersion in a other wise semi "believable" world

But Liara never wore hard plate. The codex for light armor in ME1 says that they lack ceramic plating. As such, it IS basically just cloth. Same with Tali.

[Heavensrun]

Whereto wrote...

My main problem with liaras armor Is I like hard plate, her LotSB seemed more like fabric and I doubt it would do much against bullets or the elements. Also @Rurik, ya but what happens when the shields go down? You start immediately losing body heat, if your close to a sun you'll get a good dose of radiation and to top it all off, your clothing is going to have a few holes in it. I doubt u have much chance as soon as those shields go down. That's why hard suits and helmets are important. Oh and yes DxWill, it is important to me for them to wear hard suits, as it breaks my immersion in a other wise semi "believable" world

The thing is, according to the lore, the "hard suits" shouldn't do much against the mass effect weaponry -anyway-.  The fact that armor protects anything at all is a gameplay conceit that already disagrees with the fiction they've written.  The -only- viable defense against these weapons is supposed to be an ME shield or a biotic barrier, which is the same basic thing.

As far as breaking immersion, You do realize that the entire concept of "changing something's mass so you can accellerate it more easily" is so -incredibly- absurd that for a student of science like myself to even -play- this game, I have to be willing to accept pretty much anything.

[didymos1120]

Whereto wrote...

My main problem with liaras armor Is I like hard plate, her LotSB seemed more like fabric and I doubt it would do much against bullets or the elements. 

Right, because bulletproof and weatherproof fabrics don't exist now, so they couldn't possibly have much improved ones in the future.  Also: take a good look at the ME1 light armors.  They aren't remotely all hard plate. "Barely" is more like it. 

[Relix28]

I honestly don't understand the reasons behind this poor design choice made by Bioware, other than make charcters look more "unique" and "cool". But in the end, all it did was make it look out of place and something of sub-par design (especially those breather masks). 
I mean you don't have to make your characters half naked, just for them to look unique, do you? Or ruin a really nice armor design like Zaeeds, by taking of his sleeve, just so he looks more "unique" with some more tatoos, that no one really cares about. Or his mask, that could have been a nice unique air-tight helmet instead of a merc halloween mask. Or that hole on Thane's back, or Jack, or Samara's cleavage and high heels...I could go on forever, but I won't. My only hope is that Bioware cuts this design nonsense for ME3.

[Rurik_Niall]

Okay, this is a pet peeve, Thane requires that hole, if he covers his chest it will accelerate his condition and he will die. Protip, it doesn't matter if you're protected from the environment if you drop over dead due to liquid building up in your lungs.

[didymos1120]

Heavensrun wrote...

The thing is, according to the lore, the "hard suits" shouldn't do much against the mass effect weaponry -anyway-.  The fact that armor protects anything at all is a gameplay conceit that already disagrees with the fiction they've written.

You seem to have misunderstood the role of armor within that fiction:

If a bullet or other incoming object gets past the barrier, it contends with the more traditional body armor. A sealed suit of non-porous ballistic cloth provides kinetic and environmental protection, reinforced by lightweight composite ceramic plates in areas that either don't need to flex or require additional coverage, such as the chest and head. When the armor is hit by directed energy weapons, the plates boil away or ablate rather than burning the wearer.

Yeah, gameplay doesn't perfectly track with the lore, and you get enemies/characters who rely just on armor for protection.  But it never has tracked lore all that well.  I mean, they shouldn't be able to take punishment the way they do once down to health in either game, but they do anyway. 

[Whereto]

Yes, yes I understand that the physics of mass effect are way off... Duh. But mass effect is just a plot device to carry things along, it was added to a world with a lot of inaccuracies, but for the most part things are "believable". In no way shape or form do I take this game as realistic, but if they were to just say hey, let's allow players to go out into space with shorts and a singlet, I would start to think, this is just absurd. The game gives a reason why faster than light travel is possible and explains it, albeit a bit weak at points , but it does allow it to fit in with a universe we still know and doesn't alienate us. Now for surviving in space with out proper protection, they never give a reason, thus the idea is unbleieve to me.

And now Rurik, now where does it state that what ur suggesting is even in the games fiction. Sure it's a good idea that explains a lot, but till their is evidence of this, when your shields go down(which happens all the time in the game), you don't have a shield thus are exposed. Also I suggest you play arrival.(spoiler) your out in the vacuum at the end(end spoiler)

In a final quest for answer before I give up on this. Why do enemies have armor? If the bullets should go through it... Or is it just another game against lore thing


Edit: yes didy I know their are bulletproof fabrics around now, and oddly enough kevlar is one of them. But there isnt much point to a fabric if doesnt instantly harden at the point of impact. Current kevlar will stop a 9mm pretty easy, but for many people this will leave a bruise. Now lets say there was a form of kevlar that could stop a 50cal bullet and was as thin as a peice of paper. Sure that would be great, but you would have one major problem. The kentic force of the round would probably sheer your arm off or at very least break bones and damage ur arm beyond repair. It would be great if this fabric instantly hardened, but in all likely hood would suffer plasitc deformation and make what ever body part its on immobile, thus totally pointless 

Modifié par Whereto, 15 avril 2011 - 03:22 .

[Terror_K]

Heavensrun wrote...

And I didn't say "kinetic barriers" hold in air, I said "barriers", which is to say that there -are- atmo-contraining barriers in the game.  And if we can have an invisible human sized/shaped shield on our characters that can protect against projectiles travelling at high velocities, it isn't a big stretch to think that we could also have one we could turn on that protects our skin from toxic atmospheres.

Such a device would use a lot of power though, which the strong barriers you mention can because they're attached to large power sources.

The thing is, a lot of people are coming up with these "could haves" but aside from the fact that they currently don't exist in the lore they're all very impractical for the simple fact that the concepts that are being brought up are merely excuses to explain away poorly thought-out design and the fact that they're all cases of convoluted ideas that are impractical because the solution is always simply, "wear protective clothing" in every case, as opposed to "why can't they have this super piece of technology that would be very expensive, power intensive and could possibly fail?"

Essentially, it's the equivalent of somebody going to play in the snow on a cold winter's day naked and instead of agreeing with the basic concept of, "well, put on a jacket, hat, gloves and boots, etc." they're saying, "why don't you strap on this expensive piece of pseudo-technology that projects a shield around you that keeps in the heat while not melting the snow around you, etc."

The fact is, all these "could have" technologies could exist, but they don't or they've be in play and/or mentioned, and they have no reason to exist when the simple solution is in this case the best one: put on some friggin' protection!

[Relix28]

Rurik_Niall wrote...

Okay, this is a pet peeve, Thane requires that hole, if he covers his chest it will accelerate his condition and he will die. Protip, it doesn't matter if you're protected from the environment if you drop over dead due to liquid building up in your lungs.

So the new "holeless" suit from APP basically makes it a suicide for him, right? Speaking of wich, I really like the air-tight design of that suit, much more than his default "look at mah green chest" ones. Can't say the same about the glasses though. Although it was perfect when combined with his Recon Hood.

[Rurik_Niall]

Where does it say that it isn't? Does the codex really have to explain every little thing? The codex never explains why all those different fish you can buy for your quarters can survive in the same water eating the same food, it never explains how that giant silver orb you find at the end of the Firewalker quests can shrink down to the size of a basketball and yet still be able to be moved aboard the Normandy when it should be so dense that it would be near impossible to move, never even explains how the Prothean/Reaper artefacts can communicate telepathically with Shepard.

[Rurik_Niall]

Relix28 wrote...

So the new "holeless" suit from APP basically makes it a suicide for him, right? Speaking of wich, I really like the air-tight design of that suit, much more than his default "look at mah green chest" ones. Can't say the same about the glasses though. Although it was perfect when combined with his Recon Hood.

Thane's Medical Report From Dr. Chakwas
Lung Capacity: 42% (left-side lung shows large lesions, right lung has nodular lesions only)
Antibiotic treatment: Now resistant to cipoxidin, malanarin, alburcin
Metastatic progress: stomach, liver (minor), heart (negligible at this time)
Treatment Options:
Viable transplant candidate but refused to be added to list
- Synthetic lung generation currently impossible for drell
Therapy and Care:
At this time, Mr. Krios should continue getting regular cardiovascular
exercise in order to stimulate lung movement and prevent or delay the
stiffness that causes lack of oxygen transport. While physical
stimulation may also be beneficial in keeping tissues flexible, any
injury at this point will dramatically impact Mr. Krios' body and cause
rapid degeneration. It is unclear how much longer Thane will be able to
serve in direct action. Thane should continue to wear loose clothing
that leaves his chest uncovered to prevent moisture buildup that could
worsen the problem.
The drell eidetic memory is often beneficial in allowing drell to
escape unpleasant scenes by losing themselves in happier times. In this
case, however, Mr. Krios should try to restrict the time spent
reminiscing as prolonged sedentary activity increase the rate of lung
degradation.
This suggests that what is best for Mr. Krios currently is to
continue to remain active and engage with other team members in order to
stay mentally and emotionally stimulated.

Modifié par Rurik_Niall, 15 avril 2011 - 03:16 .

[Heavensrun]

Relix28 wrote...

I honestly don't understand the reasons behind this poor design choice made by Bioware, other than make charcters look more "unique" and "cool". But in the end, all it did was make it look out of place and something of sub-par design (especially those breather masks). 
I mean you don't have to make your characters half naked, just for them to look unique, do you? Or ruin a really nice armor design like Zaeeds, by taking of his sleeve, just so he looks more "unique" with some more tatoos, that no one really cares about. Or his mask, that could have been a nice unique air-tight helmet instead of a merc halloween mask. Or that hole on Thane's back, or Jack, or Samara's cleavage and high heels...I could go on forever, but I won't. My only hope is that Bioware cuts this design nonsense for ME3.

You've prejudged the design choice as poor, so naturally you're not going to understand.  You're not -seeking- understanding.

You're not on a military vessel anymore.  These people aren't all marines and mercenaries.  Jack and Samara rely on their biotics for protection, not any kind of armor.  Jack, in particular, dresses the way she does -deliberately- to rebel.  It's basically a taunt.  

Zaeed wears full armor because it makes sense for him to do so, because that's who he is.  Miranda wears the catsuit to distract people and get them to underestimate her.  Jack just doesn't give a crap.

[Relix28]

Look I'm all for chracter uniquness, but I know a poor design choice when I see one. Being unique doesn't mean to run around half naked on a toxic planet full of things that are out to murder you. Looks somewhat out of place, don't you think?

You can theorize all you want here, but in the end it all comes down to a design choice. And for me personally, it was a very poor one.

Modifié par Relix28, 15 avril 2011 - 03:30 .

[Heavensrun]

Terror_K wrote...

Heavensrun wrote...

And I didn't say "kinetic barriers" hold in air, I said "barriers", which is to say that there -are- atmo-contraining barriers in the game.  And if we can have an invisible human sized/shaped shield on our characters that can protect against projectiles travelling at high velocities, it isn't a big stretch to think that we could also have one we could turn on that protects our skin from toxic atmospheres.

Such a device would use a lot of power though, which the strong barriers you mention can because they're attached to large power sources.

And on -what- basis do you assert that that a human-sized atmospheric barrier is prohibitively energy-expensive while a human-sized barrier that can DEFLECT BULLETS is not?  The former act requires -LESS- energy.

The thing is, a lot of people are coming up with these "could haves" but aside from the fact that they currently don't exist in the lore they're all very impractical for the simple fact that the concepts that are being brought up are merely excuses to explain away poorly thought-out design and the fact that they're all cases of convoluted ideas that are impractical because the solution is always simply, "wear protective clothing" in every case, as opposed to "why can't they have this super piece of technology that would be very expensive, power intensive and could possibly fail?"

Except for the fact that the lore doesn't say they -don't- exist, and if you're right about in-game environments being corrosive, they clearly -do-.  Or is ME2 not a valid source of new lore?

And you're assuming it would be very expensive, but I don't see any real informed reason to suggest that it would be -more- expensive than the magic thin "envirosuits" that completely protect people from the rigors of space travel.  For all we know, the barrier option might be cheaper.

Essentially, it's the equivalent of somebody going to play in the snow on a cold winter's day naked and instead of agreeing with the basic concept of, "well, put on a jacket, hat, gloves and boots, etc." they're saying, "why don't you strap on this expensive piece of pseudo-technology that projects a shield around you that keeps in the heat while not melting the snow around you, etc."

The fact is, all these "could have" technologies could exist, but they don't or they've be in play and/or mentioned, and they have no reason to exist when the simple solution is in this case the best one: put on some friggin' protection!

(Because obviously if something wasn't explicitly mentioned in ME1, it doesn't exist.  After all, every game that might have sequels should think of all possible design needs and story demands before they even release the first game.)

-If- they -needed- protection, which is a point you have not demonstrated to my satisfaction, they may well -be- wearing it, in the form of a protective barrier.

[Heavensrun]

Rurik_Niall wrote...

Where does it say that it isn't? Does the codex really have to explain every little thing? The codex never explains why all those different fish you can buy for your quarters can survive in the same water eating the same food, it never explains how that giant silver orb you find at the end of the Firewalker quests can shrink down to the size of a basketball and yet still be able to be moved aboard the Normandy when it should be so dense that it would be near impossible to move, never even explains how the Prothean/Reaper artefacts can communicate telepathically with Shepard.

To be fair, we have no idea how dense the sphere was before it shrank, so it might not be dense at all, and even if it were, we're talking about a universe in which mass is effectively meaningless if your technology threshhold is high enough.  ;p  But I digress.

[Zanallen]

Honestly, I can only think of maybe 3 places in the game where an envirosuit would be absolutely needed. One is the Shepard only prologue and another is a ten minute sidequest that you can choose who you bring along. Honestly, the fact that Shepard had to find/buy weapons and armor in ME1 was fairly immersion breaking for me. He's an elite agent backed by both the galactic council and the alliance government. Why is he forced to buy supplies from some shop?

[gosimmons]

Seboist wrote...
While we're on the subject of unfitting
outfits, anyone else finds it odd that Morinth is more modestly dressed
than Samara? It's ironic that Samara in her large cleavage showing V
neck and high heels labels Morinth a "hedonist" and a degenerate.
Shouldn't it be the other way around?

You'd think so.. I always felt that Samara's look wasn't the best match for her character. Guess there's always chance of change in Me3. >> 

Rurik_Niall wrote...
Okay, this is a pet peeve, Thane requires that hole, if he covers his chest it will accelerate his condition and he will die. Protip, it doesn't matter if you're protected from the environment if you drop over dead due to liquid building up in your lungs.

I don't think it'd be anything instant, though then again I feel bad about his alternate outfit. lol


As for the debate, I've said it before. What they wear on the ship's one thing, but proper apparel in combat is just common sense. I mean, Mass Effect fields can fail, Biotics can faint and lose their shields,  there's really no plausible reason that characters can't wear something more protective in combat/space other than fanservice/the rule of cool.

Modifié par gosimmons, 15 avril 2011 - 03:41 .

[Relix28]

Zanallen wrote...

Honestly, I can only think of maybe 3 places in the game where an envirosuit would be absolutely needed. One is the Shepard only prologue and another is a ten minute sidequest that you can choose who you bring along. Honestly, the fact that Shepard had to find/buy weapons and armor in ME1 was fairly immersion breaking for me. He's an elite agent backed by both the galactic council and the alliance government. Why is he forced to buy supplies from some shop?

He did had to buy/find his stuff in ME2 also, while being backed by one of the richest man in the galaxy.

[Relix28]

gosimmons wrote...

Seboist wrote...
While we're on the subject of unfitting
outfits, anyone else finds it odd that Morinth is more modestly dressed
than Samara? It's ironic that Samara in her large cleavage showing V
neck and high heels labels Morinth a "hedonist" and a degenerate.
Shouldn't it be the other way around?

You'd think so.. I always felt that Samara's look wasn't the best match for her character. Guess there's always chance of change in Me3. >> 

Rurik_Niall wrote...
Okay, this is a pet peeve, Thane requires that hole, if he covers his chest it will accelerate his condition and he will die. Protip, it doesn't matter if you're protected from the environment if you drop over dead due to liquid building up in your lungs.

I don't think it'd be anything instant, though then again I feel bad about his alternate outfit. lol


As for the debate, I've said it before. What they wear on the ship's one thing, but proper apparel in combat is just common sense. I mean, Mass Effect fields can fail, there's really no plausible reason that characters can't wear something more protective, other than fanservice/the rule of cool.

This.

[Rurik_Niall]

Precisely my point, the codex doesn't have to outright say that something exists or how it works for it to be true. The codex isn't 100% accurate anyway, unless time traveling Geth created the Reapers millions of years ago Sovereign is most certainly not a Geth ship and yet that's what it's referred to as. The Codex only provides the information that is public knowledge, if the barriers in use by Miranda are experimental new technology from Cerberus needless to say that it won't be listed on Space Wikipedia.

Modifié par Rurik_Niall, 15 avril 2011 - 03:42 .

[didymos1120]

Whereto wrote...

In a final quest for answer before I give up on this. Why do enemies have armor? If the bullets should go through it... Or is it just another game against lore thing

 

I just posted the Codex about that: projectiles/objects that the kinetic barriers don't stop or deflect are (hopefully) stopped by the armor.  It's also designed to ablate when hit by energy weapons.  And no: like many things, it's role as a gameplay element doesn't perfectly align with the Codex.  Oh well.