283 réponses à ce sujet

[Zanallen]

gosimmons wrote...

As for the debate, I've said it before. What they wear on the ship's one thing, but proper apparel in combat is just common sense. I mean, Mass Effect fields can fail, there's really no plausible reason that characters can't wear something more protective, other than fanservice/the rule of cool.

Meh, could your companions be better equipped in combat? Sure. Of course, if we want to be more realistic, half of your squad would probably not see the combat situations that we have in ME2. Mordin is a research scientist. Sure, he may have special forces training, but he's far more valuable in the lab than on the field. Same with Miranda, honestly. She might be a secret agent type, but she's also better off as a group coordinator and leading the squad from behind a computer displaying building schematics. And Thane...Thane. He's an assassin, not a soldier and definitely not a frontline trooper. Kasumi too. Its silly.

[Heavensrun]

Whereto wrote...

Yes, yes I understand that the physics of mass effect are way off... Duh. But mass effect is just a plot device to carry things along, it was added to a world with a lot of inaccuracies, but for the most part things are "believable". In no way shape or form do I take this game as realistic, but if they were to just say hey, let's allow players to go out into space with shorts and a singlet, I would start to think, this is just absurd. The game gives a reason why faster than light travel is possible and explains it, albeit a bit weak at points , but it does allow it to fit in with a universe we still know and doesn't alienate us. Now for surviving in space with out proper protection, they never give a reason, thus the idea is unbleieve to me.

And now Rurik, now where does it state that what ur suggesting is even in the games fiction. Sure it's a good idea that explains a lot, but till their is evidence of this, when your shields go down(which happens all the time in the game), you don't have a shield thus are exposed. Also I suggest you play arrival.(spoiler) your out in the vacuum at the end(end spoiler)

In a final quest for answer before I give up on this. Why do enemies have armor? If the bullets should go through it... Or is it just another game against lore thing


Edit: yes didy I know their are bulletproof fabrics around now, and oddly enough kevlar is one of them. But there isnt much point to a fabric if doesnt instantly harden at the point of impact. Current kevlar will stop a 9mm pretty easy, but for many people this will leave a bruise. Now lets say there was a form of kevlar that could stop a 50cal bullet and was as thin as a peice of paper. Sure that would be great, but you would have one major problem. The kentic force of the round would probably sheer your arm off or at very least break bones and damage ur arm beyond repair. It would be great if this fabric instantly hardened, but in all likely hood would suffer plasitc deformation and make what ever body part its on immobile, thus totally pointless 

As far as why enemies have armor, well, I agree with you in a sense.  The lore is fairly inconsistent about how well armor works.  Codec entries imply it's helpful, but the first book, Written by Drew Karpyshin, implied that it was basically useless, at least in so far as I recall.  (just read it once.)  But if we assume that it's useful, I have to point out that the light armor in ME1 isn't really any "tougher looking" than miranda's catsuit, Jack -still- doesn't give a crap, and neither does Samara.  If we're talking about protection against bullets, the characters who wear the least protection are -all- biotics, who might be banking on their biotic abilities to provide protection without sacrificing mobility.  (and there is -every- indication in the lore that a biotic field is worth a hell of a lot more than any body armor.

So really, the only possibly valid argument I've seen against the outfits in ME2 is on the toxic atmosphere issue.  Contrary to the fact that you and everybody else keeps talking about "go out into space with shorts and a singlet"  Shepard is the only character in this game, repeat, the ONLY CHARACTER who is ever shown in vacuum at any point.

There is atmosphere on the collector ship, and there is atmosphere around the collector base.

[Heavensrun]

Relix28 wrote...

Zanallen wrote...

Honestly, I can only think of maybe 3 places in the game where an envirosuit would be absolutely needed. One is the Shepard only prologue and another is a ten minute sidequest that you can choose who you bring along. Honestly, the fact that Shepard had to find/buy weapons and armor in ME1 was fairly immersion breaking for me. He's an elite agent backed by both the galactic council and the alliance government. Why is he forced to buy supplies from some shop?

He did had to buy/find his stuff in ME2 also, while being backed by one of the richest man in the galaxy.

Actually, technically in ME2, all Shep has to find or buy is research/technology, at which point cerberus assets build as many copies of the item as Shep needs to outfit his/her whole squad.

[trucoolbrees]

Heavensrun wrote...

Whereto wrote...

Yes, yes I understand that the physics of mass effect are way off... Duh. But mass effect is just a plot device to carry things along, it was added to a world with a lot of inaccuracies, but for the most part things are "believable". In no way shape or form do I take this game as realistic, but if they were to just say hey, let's allow players to go out into space with shorts and a singlet, I would start to think, this is just absurd. The game gives a reason why faster than light travel is possible and explains it, albeit a bit weak at points , but it does allow it to fit in with a universe we still know and doesn't alienate us. Now for surviving in space with out proper protection, they never give a reason, thus the idea is unbleieve to me.

And now Rurik, now where does it state that what ur suggesting is even in the games fiction. Sure it's a good idea that explains a lot, but till their is evidence of this, when your shields go down(which happens all the time in the game), you don't have a shield thus are exposed. Also I suggest you play arrival.(spoiler) your out in the vacuum at the end(end spoiler)

In a final quest for answer before I give up on this. Why do enemies have armor? If the bullets should go through it... Or is it just another game against lore thing


Edit: yes didy I know their are bulletproof fabrics around now, and oddly enough kevlar is one of them. But there isnt much point to a fabric if doesnt instantly harden at the point of impact. Current kevlar will stop a 9mm pretty easy, but for many people this will leave a bruise. Now lets say there was a form of kevlar that could stop a 50cal bullet and was as thin as a peice of paper. Sure that would be great, but you would have one major problem. The kentic force of the round would probably sheer your arm off or at very least break bones and damage ur arm beyond repair. It would be great if this fabric instantly hardened, but in all likely hood would suffer plasitc deformation and make what ever body part its on immobile, thus totally pointless 

As far as why enemies have armor, well, I agree with you in a sense.  The lore is fairly inconsistent about how well armor works.  Codec entries imply it's helpful, but the first book, Written by Drew Karpyshin, implied that it was basically useless, at least in so far as I recall.  (just read it once.)  But if we assume that it's useful, I have to point out that the light armor in ME1 isn't really any "tougher looking" than miranda's catsuit, Jack -still- doesn't give a crap, and neither does Samara.  If we're talking about protection against bullets, the characters who wear the least protection are -all- biotics, who might be banking on their biotic abilities to provide protection without sacrificing mobility.  (and there is -every- indication in the lore that a biotic field is worth a hell of a lot more than any body armor.

So really, the only possibly valid argument I've seen against the outfits in ME2 is on the toxic atmosphere issue.  Contrary to the fact that you and everybody else keeps talking about "go out into space with shorts and a singlet"  Shepard is the only character in this game, repeat, the ONLY CHARACTER who is ever shown in vacuum at any point.

There is atmosphere on the collector ship, and there is atmosphere around the collector base.

I've been arguing this ^^  for months, I finally gave up.<_<

[gosimmons]

Zanallen wrote...

Meh, could your companions be better equipped in combat? Sure. Of course, if we want to be more realistic, half of your squad would probably not see the combat situations that we have in ME2. Mordin is a research scientist. Sure, he may have special forces training, but he's far more valuable in the lab than on the field. Same with Miranda, honestly. She might be a secret agent type, but she's also better off as a group coordinator and leading the squad from behind a computer displaying building schematics. And Thane...Thane. He's an assassin, not a soldier and definitely not a frontline trooper. Kasumi too. Its silly.

So, you're arguing that we shouldn't be able to bring half the characters on the squad at all?
And whether they're scientists, infiltrators, special. ops, etc, they all know when they're going into combat, and should be able equip as such. 

[Zanallen]

Whereto wrote...

In a final quest for answer before I give up on this. Why do enemies have armor? If the bullets should go through it... Or is it just another game against lore thing


Edit: yes didy I know their are bulletproof fabrics around now, and oddly enough kevlar is one of them. But there isnt much point to a fabric if doesnt instantly harden at the point of impact. Current kevlar will stop a 9mm pretty easy, but for many people this will leave a bruise. Now lets say there was a form of kevlar that could stop a 50cal bullet and was as thin as a peice of paper. Sure that would be great, but you would have one major problem. The kentic force of the round would probably sheer your arm off or at very least break bones and damage ur arm beyond repair. It would be great if this fabric instantly hardened, but in all likely hood would suffer plasitc deformation and make what ever body part its on immobile, thus totally pointless 

I always figured that the mercenaries wore armor because they were, you know, mercenaries and pretty much constantly in combat. Same with soldiers like Shepard. They aren't; however, scientists, assassins, thieves, escaped convicts, secret agent types or space cops. And, as I have said before in various threads, Tali isn't wearing armor now, nor was she in ME1. Its an envirosuit that lacks ceramic plating. Same with whatever Liara was wearing in ME1.

As for your second point...Isn't that what the kinetic shields are for? If they can't stop the bullet completely, they should atleast be able to slow it down enough for whatever bulletproof fabrics to do their job.

[Zanallen]

gosimmons wrote...


So, you're arguing that we shouldn't be able to bring half the characters on the squad at all?
And whether they're scientists, infiltrators, special. ops, etc, they all know when they're going into combat, and should be able equip as such. 

If you want realism, yeah. Some of your squad really has no business being in the middle of the kind of firefights you get into in ME2. Could you equip them in armor? Sure. Would someone with no real training and little combat experience be proficient enough in its use for it to be beneficial? That's iffy.

[Rurik_Niall]

Zanallen wrote...

I always figured that the mercenaries wore armor because they were, you know, mercenaries and pretty much constantly in combat. Same with soldiers like Shepard. They aren't; however, scientists, assassins, thieves, escaped convicts, secret agent types or space cops. And, as I have said before in various threads, Tali isn't wearing armor now, nor was she in ME1. Its an envirosuit that lacks ceramic plating. Same with whatever Liara was wearing in ME1.

As for your second point...Isn't that what the kinetic shields are for? If they can't stop the bullet completely, they should atleast be able to slow it down enough for whatever bulletproof fabrics to do their job.

It's also more intimidating. Think about it, which would be scarrier, seeing the woobie armourless Krogan who wants a fish from the Prisidium so badly that you can't help but feel sorry for him or a Krogan in full Bloodpack armour?

[gosimmons]

Zanallen wrote...

If you want realism, yeah. Some of your squad really has no business being in the middle of the kind of firefights you get into in ME2. Could you equip them in armor? Sure. Would someone with no real training and little combat experience be proficient enough in its use for it to be beneficial? That's iffy.

But they all have combat training... How much extra training do you need to be able to wear a slightly heavier suit that doesn't expose skin?

Besides it's not like their current choices are doing them any favors. Miranda's and Samara's skintight outfits actually look more restrictive than lighter armor. While Jack's just looks painful. >>

Modifié par gosimmons, 15 avril 2011 - 04:07 .

[Heavensrun]

trucoolbrees wrote...

Heavensrun wrote...

There is atmosphere on the collector ship, and there is atmosphere around the collector base.

I've been arguing this ^^  for months, I finally gave up.<_<

It's pretty damn simple, honestly.  The collectors and seeker drones use wings to fly.

[Rurik_Niall]

gosimmons wrote...

But they all have combat training... How much extra training do you need to be able to wear a slightly heavier suit that doesn't expose skin?

Besides it's not like their current choices are doing them any favors. Miranda's and Samara's skintight outfits look more restrictive than lighter armor. While Jack's just looks painful. >>

You know what else about Jack looks painful? Jack. Everything about her is just downright unpleasant, her personality, her looks, even her voice grates on my nerves.

Modifié par Rurik_Niall, 15 avril 2011 - 04:07 .

[Heavensrun]

Zanallen wrote...

gosimmons wrote...


So, you're arguing that we shouldn't be able to bring half the characters on the squad at all?
And whether they're scientists, infiltrators, special. ops, etc, they all know when they're going into combat, and should be able equip as such. 

If you want realism, yeah. Some of your squad really has no business being in the middle of the kind of firefights you get into in ME2. Could you equip them in armor? Sure. Would someone with no real training and little combat experience be proficient enough in its use for it to be beneficial? That's iffy.

To be fair, everybody in your squad has training and combat experience.

[Relix28]

Nyoka wrote...

Well guys, are you okay with everyone who's not a soldier (Miranda, Thane, Samara, Morinth, Jack and Kasumi) wearing armor but not being able to move because it's too f*cking heavy?

How about just make them look like they belong on the battlefield? Take Liara and her gear for instance. No high heels, no cleavage, no strap bra's and no krogan armor either. Her suit is a nice unique looking mix of light armor and a scientist lab coat. She actually looks like a battle ready asari scientist. It looks good AND it makes sense.
And Miranda's new alt. (minus the headgear) isn't half bad either. It's not a heavy soldier armor and it's not a tight spandex suit with high heels. It's a light battle suit with some armored parts, wich again makes sense.
As for Kasumi, I think she looks fine the way she does. But would it really hurt if they replaced that breather mask with a nice looking full face mask/helmet that would go under the hoodie? Maybe something like Thane's Recon Hood.

I mean, it's fine that characters look different and that they are not all equipped with heavy armors. But I do prefer something that makes sense rather than something that looks out of place in hazardous enviroments or even just on the battlefield.

[Terror_K]

Heavensrun wrote...

And on -what- basis do you assert that that a human-sized atmospheric barrier is prohibitively energy-expensive while a human-sized barrier that can DEFLECT BULLETS is not?  The former act requires -LESS- energy.

Because an atmospheric barrier that could protect against all those things (pressure, air, temperature, radiation, toxins, etc.) would require constant activation and adjustment according to the environment around them. The current kinetic barriers only have to protect and "activate" when projectyles penetrate them at a certain velocity. When a kinetic barrier is being whittled down by enemy fire it's not because it's being literally being broken by them, it's because it's gradually using the available power to maintain them. If kinetic barriers functioned in the way you suggested then they'd constantly be going and constantly being stressed by the factors you are suggesting they should be protecting against. It'd basically be like constantly being shot from all sides, and that would take more power than a small generator in a piece of armour could provide.

On top of that, you'd (again) have to create a perfect vacuum to keep out many of these factors, particularly temperature, radiation and air, which (again) would cause a lot of problems, especially if you got shot and your skin being exposed to that would be just as bad as the hazards you'd be facing without it.

Finally, they don't work that way because (again again) the Codex states they don't, and if it really was cheaper and more efficient to do it that way, then they would (but they don't).

Except for the fact that the lore doesn't say they -don't- exist, and if you're right about in-game environments being corrosive, they clearly -do-.  Or is ME2 not a valid source of new lore?

Yes it does. It outright says that the kinetic barriers DON'T protect against these factors. How many times does it have to be pointed out to you. And just because it's shown in ME2 with no explanation doesn't just mean, "well, it must do then!" Again, the lore says it doesn, and that's just you excusing poor design and writing. The ME2 devs contract themselves and the lore all the time, and this is just another example of that. It's things like that that are causing this debate in the first place.

And you're assuming it would be very expensive, but I don't see any real informed reason to suggest that it would be -more- expensive than the magic thin "envirosuits" that completely protect people from the rigors of space travel.  For all we know, the barrier option might be cheaper.

I'm basing it on both power and technology requirements in order to produce such a device. It's pretty damn obvious that the difference here is like saying, "what's cheaper? Some clothing, or a car?" Again, if it were cheaper and more logical, it would exist that way.

(Because obviously if something wasn't explicitly mentioned in ME1, it doesn't exist.  After all, every game that might have sequels should think of all possible design needs and story demands before they even release the first game.)

-If- they -needed- protection, which is a point you have not demonstrated to my satisfaction, they may well -be- wearing it, in the form of a protective barrier.

Again, except that they're not. The Codex in both games tells us how kinetic barriers work and that they don't protect against anything much except for fast, incoming projectyles. That's what they're designed for, they're not made to protect the user from the hazards of space, that's why in the original game everybody who was out there in space wore proper, air-tight armour.

There's at several places where characters shouldn't be exposed in ME2, most notably Tarith and The Migrant Fleet (where in Ascension the humans had to undergo decontamination and wear full suits before they could come aboard, yet Jack and Samara can just wander on with exposed skin). The only reason that the entire experience isn't totally ruined for me with ME2 is because there are admittedly few places where it's a major factor because we rarely go anywhere that dangerous hazard-wise on-foot.

Regarding your comment in the brackets, that's completely silly given the circumstances. Beyond the fact that it's stated countless times that, to put it simply, "KINETIC BARRIERS DO NOT WORK THAT WAY!!!" and that unless there's an explanation that comes along that explains it then it's just poorly handled and farcical, the whole factor is extremely stupid because it's one that's purely aesthetic and doesn't effect gameplay in the slightest. If everybody in ME2 had been wearing proper clothing, even if it was only during the necessary parts (i.e. whenever Shepard automatically dons a helmet) then the game wouldn't have played any differently whatsoever. It's a visual design choice and nothing more, but it's one that makes the entire universe a pathetic, unrealistic farce, after the team had done such a good job of making it coherent, consistent and (beyond the nature of its own pesudoscience) believable and realistic. It really is just a "Rule of Cool" factor and there's no reason for it to be beyond that, which overall makes it shallow and pathetic. While the thermal clip system may have logica and lore issues as well, it at least has the benefit of being an actual gameplay factor that has some substance to it. Squaddies running around exposed in poorly thought out outfits doesn't, it's just tragic and sad.

If one can just say, "well there must be an explanation and you must accept it" then where does it end with stupidity on the part of the design team? Do we just accept Shepard in ME3 in a vacuum not even wearing a helmet any more and just being able to talk fine? Do we just accept Shepard walking around the outside of The Normandy in space and having a conversation, not needing to breathe air, not having to worry about temperature or radiation, etc. Part of the whole mystery and danger of sci-fi is the fact that it generally acknowledges and properly respects the mystery and dangers of space itself. It's often one of the key tools at your disposal with sci-fi as a whole. When you turn that into a joke by treating it so lightly, you turn the whole IP into a joke as well. It's hard to think that Shepard's death in the opening sequence of ME2 is that big of a deal when later events make you think, "What's the big deal? Shepard should have no problems surviving that, thanks to whatever magical, mystery thing has been keeping my highly-exposed squaddies fine!"

Modifié par Terror_K, 15 avril 2011 - 04:15 .

[Whereto]

Zanallen wrote...

As for your second point...Isn't that what the kinetic shields are for? If they can't stop the bullet completely, they should atleast be able to slow it down enough for whatever bulletproof fabrics to do their job.

Ya but if they go down. Thats what I'm Saying

[Heavensrun]

Rurik_Niall wrote...

gosimmons wrote...

But they all have combat training... How much extra training do you need to be able to wear a slightly heavier suit that doesn't expose skin?

Besides it's not like their current choices are doing them any favors. Miranda's and Samara's skintight outfits look more restrictive than lighter armor. While Jack's just looks painful. >>

You know what else about Jack looks painful? Jack. Everything about her is just downright unpleasant, her personality, her looks, even her voice grates on my nerves.

That's kinda the point.

[didymos1120]

Zanallen wrote...

As for your second point...Isn't that what the kinetic shields are for? If they can't stop the bullet completely, they should atleast be able to slow it down enough for whatever bulletproof fabrics to do their job.

And that is indeed exactly what the Codex says that body armor is for: stuff that gets past the kinetic barrier. Or anything traveling below the velocity threshold to which the barriers are keyed.

[didymos1120]

Whereto wrote...
Ya but if they go down. Thats what I'm Saying

Well, then you have problems.  What's your point? 

[Zanallen]

gosimmons wrote...

Zanallen wrote...

If you want realism, yeah. Some of your squad really has no business being in the middle of the kind of firefights you get into in ME2. Could you equip them in armor? Sure. Would someone with no real training and little combat experience be proficient enough in its use for it to be beneficial? That's iffy.

But they all have combat training... How much extra training do you need to be able to wear a slightly heavier suit that doesn't expose skin?

Besides it's not like their current choices are doing them any favors. Miranda's and Samara's skintight outfits actually look more restrictive than lighter armor. While Jack's just looks painful. >>

Knowing how to shoot people and having actual battlefield experience are two very different things. And yes, wearing armor does require training. It is heavy and restrictive. This requires you to get used to wearing it and, depending on the type of armor, you might have to build up the endurance required to run around in it without passing out or falling over.

Aaaaaaand, the light armor category from ME1 wasn't actually armor. It contains no ceramic plating. It might stop shrapnel or maybe knives, but it definitely wasn't bulletproof.

[Rurik_Niall]

Terror_K wrote...
...unless there's an explanation that comes along that explains it then it's just poorly handled and farcical...

So then the Reapers are poorly handled and farcical using this argument. There's no explanation given for them. The Codex never says they exist, why they exist, who made them, how they were made, or how they function, therefor the Reapers don't actually exist and are simply advanced Geth ships as the codex says.

[Ahglock]

Heavensrun wrote...



As far as why enemies have armor, well, I agree with you in a sense.  The lore is fairly inconsistent about how well armor works.  Codec entries imply it's helpful, but the first book, Written by Drew Karpyshin, implied that it was basically useless, at least in so far as I recall.  (just read it once.)  But if we assume that it's useful, I have to point out that the light armor in ME1 isn't really any "tougher looking" than miranda's catsuit, Jack -still- doesn't give a crap, and neither does Samara.  If we're talking about protection against bullets, the characters who wear the least protection are -all- biotics, who might be banking on their biotic abilities to provide protection without sacrificing mobility.  (and there is -every- indication in the lore that a biotic field is worth a hell of a lot more than any body armor.

So really, the only possibly valid argument I've seen against the outfits in ME2 is on the toxic atmosphere issue.  Contrary to the fact that you and everybody else keeps talking about "go out into space with shorts and a singlet"  Shepard is the only character in this game, repeat, the ONLY CHARACTER who is ever shown in vacuum at any point.

There is atmosphere on the collector ship, and there is atmosphere around the collector base.

I hate to pic a nit, but in ME1 even the least protective light armor looked about 10 times thicker than miranda's cat suit.  As you got better light armor it even went to hard plates over the ballistic cloth.  So I am going to stick with the argument that wearing catsuits and other craptasitc outfits does not fit for combat situations.  Idiots might gamble on their biotic barriers to see them through so they could make a fashion statement, but nothing indicates that any of them are that dumb. 

[Relix28]

Rurik_Niall wrote...

gosimmons wrote...

But they all have combat training... How much extra training do you need to be able to wear a slightly heavier suit that doesn't expose skin?

Besides it's not like their current choices are doing them any favors. Miranda's and Samara's skintight outfits look more restrictive than lighter armor. While Jack's just looks painful. >>

You know what else about Jack looks painful? Jack. Everything about her is just downright unpleasant, her personality, her looks, even her voice grates on my nerves.

HEY! Don't be so judgemental. She had a rough life, ok? And once you get to know her, she becomes a real sweatheart. But her outfit still sucks. lol

Modifié par Relix28, 15 avril 2011 - 04:16 .

[Rurik_Niall]

I will agree on that much, not because it's impractical but just because looking at her half-naked body makes me retch.

[Whereto]

didymos1120 wrote...

Whereto wrote...
Ya but if they go down. Thats what I'm Saying

Well, then you have problems.  What's your point? 

... LOL