Whereto wrote...
... LOLdidymos1120 wrote...
Whereto wrote...
Ya but if they go down. Thats what I'm Saying
Well, then you have problems. What's your point?
Heavensrun wrote...
As far as why enemies have armor, well, I agree with you in a sense. The lore is fairly inconsistent about how well armor works. Codec entries imply it's helpful, but the first book, Written by Drew Karpyshin, implied that it was basically useless, at least in so far as I recall. (just read it once.)
Modifié par didymos1120, 15 avril 2011 - 04:21 .
Rurik_Niall wrote...
Terror_K wrote...
...unless there's an explanation that comes along that explains it then it's just poorly handled and farcical...
So then the Reapers are poorly handled and farcical using this argument. There's no explanation given for them. The Codex never says they exist, why they exist, who made them, how they were made, or how they function, therefor the Reapers don't actually exist and are simply advanced Geth ships as the codex says.
Terror_K wrote...
That's just being deliberately obtuse.
Beyond the fact that the mystery and motives of The Reapers being
unknown is largely part of the point of the entire trilogy, Reapers
don't contradict established lore and don't contradict basic realism,
logic and science. Given the context, Reapers don't need to be
explained, whereas logic-defying stupidity does.
Modifié par Rurik_Niall, 15 avril 2011 - 04:25 .
Guest_Nyoka_*
Ah, so you agree with me: no armor for people who are not soldiers.Relix28 wrote...
Nyoka wrote...
Well guys, are you okay with everyone who's not a soldier (Miranda, Thane, Samara, Morinth, Jack and Kasumi) wearing armor but not being able to move because it's too f*cking heavy?
How about just make them look like they belong on the battlefield? Take Liara and her gear for instance. No high heels, no cleavage, no strap bra's and no krogan armor either. Her suit is a nice unique looking mix of light armor and a scientist lab coat. She actually looks like a battle ready asari scientist. It looks good AND it makes sense.
And Miranda's new alt. (minus the headgear) isn't half bad either. It's not a heavy soldier armor and it's not a tight spandex suit with high heels. It's a light battle suit with some armored parts, wich again makes sense.
As for Kasumi, I think she looks fine the way she does. But would it really hurt if they replaced that breather mask with a nice looking full face mask/helmet that would go under the hoodie? Maybe something like Thane's Recon Hood.
I mean, it's fine that characters look different and that they are not all equipped with heavy armors. But I do prefer something that makes sense rather than something that looks out of place in hazardous enviroments or even just on the battlefield.
Wasn't really trying to bash her character so much as complaining that the strongest armor I can give her is leather. lolRurik_Niall wrote...
You
know what else about Jack looks painful? Jack. Everything about her is
just downright unpleasant, her personality, her looks, even her voice
grates on my nerves.
Relix28 wrote...
How about just make them look like they belong on the battlefield? Take Liara and her gear for instance. No high heels, no cleavage, no strap bra's and no krogan armor either. Her suit is a nice unique looking mix of light armor and a scientist lab coat. She actually looks like a battle ready asari scientist. It looks good AND it makes sense.
And Miranda's new alt. (minus the headgear) isn't half bad either. It's not a heavy soldier armor and it's not a tight spandex suit with high heels. It's a light battle suit with some armored parts, wich again makes sense.
As for Kasumi, I think she looks fine the way she does. But would it really hurt if they replaced that breather mask with a nice looking full face mask/helmet that would go under the hoodie? Maybe something like Thane's Recon Hood.
And agreed. Survival shouldn't take back seat to fashion preferences.Ahglock wrote...
I hate to pic a nit, but in ME1 even the
least protective light armor looked about 10 times thicker than
miranda's cat suit. As you got better light armor it even went to hard
plates over the ballistic cloth. So I am going to stick with the
argument that wearing catsuits and other craptasitc outfits does not fit
for combat situations. Idiots might gamble on their biotic barriers to
see them through so they could make a fashion statement, but nothing
indicates that any of them are that dumb.
Modifié par gosimmons, 15 avril 2011 - 04:26 .
Zanallen wrote...
The point being that, unless you have some damn good armor, your dead either way if your shields go down. And by damn good, I mean high quality medium or heavy armors, not the light armor stuff that a good number of your squad in ME1 was stuck with. 'Cause light armor isn't bulletproof.
Rurik_Niall wrote...
No I'm pretty sure a race of sentient machines apparently built around a core of genetic goo that have existed for millions of years definitely defy basic realism, logic, and science, and they certainly contradict the codex which proves the codex is no more reliable than Wikipedia for information meaning a lack of explanation in the codex is insufficient to disprove anything.
Terror_K wrote...
Again, you're being deliberately obtuse. The Codex is written like an encyclopaedia for the Mass Effect universe for the main species. Because Reapers considered no more than a myth to them, that's how the information on them is reflected in the codex. Kinetic barriers however are a technology designed by the very races that the codex was made by and for, so they know exactly how they work and function inside out. The reason the codex states that kinetic barriers do not protect against much more than incoming, high-speed projectyles is because they know full well that they don't: they made them. The Reapers are an unknown. The reason they aren't listed in the codex ina completely accurate manner is the same reason there isn't an accurate entry for a one, true God in any encyclopaedia we have now: the nature of them/it hasn't been solidly proven and is purely up to the interpretation of individuals and factions.
Rurik_Niall wrote...
And as I've said if the barriers in use are a technology created by Cerberus and not yet released to the public they wouldn't be listed in Space Wikipedia, just like the Lazarus Project is never explained in the codex, nobody outside of the Lazarus cell and Tim know anything about how it works. You'll note that prior to working for Cerberus you didn't see this technology in use. Also who says it needs to be a Kinetic Barrier? There can easily be other forms of Mass Effect fields, in fact I'd wager there are. There's obviously some form of barrier in use aboard the Normandy during the prologue keeping Joker safe, Cerberus simply found a way to miniaturise that technology to be portable for use by individuals.
Modifié par Zanallen, 15 avril 2011 - 04:44 .
Zanallen wrote...
This, honestly. While it probably isn't kinetic shielding, there is obviously some other form of non-biotic barrier in play in ME2. You see the barrier that protects the cockpit on the SR-1 and I believe a sidequest mentions "atmospheric shielding" and has a scene with energy bubbles surrounding a compound.
The Wards are open-topped, with skyscrapers rising from the superstructure. Towers are sealed against vacuum, as the breathable atmosphere envelope is only maintained to a height of about seven meters. The atmosphere is contained by the centrifugal force of rotation and a "membrane" of dense, colorless sulphur hexafluoride gas, held in place by carefully managed mass effect fields.
Terror_K wrote...
Then what is this technology? How does it work? How does it keep out these factors while avoiding the problems that would be caused by creating the near-perfect vacuum needed to do it, according to basic science? What's the explanation? As it stands this is just another case of you defending poorly thought out design with a "could exist!" argument that holds no weight. It's just another case of you saying "this mystery pseudo-science device could exist and be more efficient and realistic than basic clothing that does the same job" but there being no real evidence to support it. Until it's in the game itself, it doesn't exist. To twist an existing phrase, "Codex or it didn't happen!"
So wait - because the most massive and advanced space station in the galaxy can keep in air with mass effect fields and a dense gas layer, that means that individuals can carry around their own portable mass effect fields and dense gas layer generator to keep in a 'bubble' of atmosphere with them? Really? Seriously, how long would that last until they died from using all of their oxygen?didymos1120 wrote...
The Citadel keeps the air in with a barrier-based system:The Wards are open-topped, with skyscrapers rising from the superstructure. Towers are sealed against vacuum, as the breathable atmosphere envelope is only maintained to a height of about seven meters. The atmosphere is contained by the centrifugal force of rotation and a "membrane" of dense, colorless sulphur hexafluoride gas, held in place by carefully managed mass effect fields.
That Codex entry's been around since ME1. Also: that's why people can breathe after a giant chunk of Sovereign plows through the Citadel Tower: emergency barriers.
The Wards are open-topped, with skyscrapers rising from the superstructure. Towers are sealed against vacuum, as the breathable atmosphere envelope is only maintained to a height of about seven meters. The atmosphere is contained by the centrifugal force of rotation and a "membrane" of dense, colorless sulphur hexafluoride gas, held in place by carefully managed mass effect fields.
Jebel Krong wrote...
Vena_86 wrote...
eye basher wrote...
OMG! all this nitpicking.
Go visit the north pole in shorts and t-shirt and call it nitpicking again.
or how about your remember it's a GAME focused on CHARACTER INTERACTION and CONVERSATIONS. which is a bit hard to do if you can't see anyone's face, hence all the boggle with the one-piece DLC armours being useless for THAT VERY REASON.
Modifié par Vena_86, 15 avril 2011 - 05:19 .
Terror_K wrote...
Because an atmospheric barrier that could protect against all those things (pressure, air, temperature, radiation, toxins, etc.) would require constant activation and adjustment according to the environment around them. The current kinetic barriers only have to protect and "activate" when projectyles penetrate them at a certain velocity. When a kinetic barrier is being whittled down by enemy fire it's not because it's being literally being broken by them, it's because it's gradually using the available power to maintain them. If kinetic barriers functioned in the way you suggested then they'd constantly be going and constantly being stressed by the factors you are suggesting they should be protecting against. It'd basically be like constantly being shot from all sides, and that would take more power than a small generator in a piece of armour could provide.
On top of that, you'd (again) have to create a perfect vacuum to keep out many of these factors, particularly temperature, radiation and air, which (again) would cause a lot of problems, especially if you got shot and your skin being exposed to that would be just as bad as the hazards you'd be facing without it.
Finally, they don't work that way because (again again) the Codex states they don't, and if it really was cheaper and more efficient to do it that way, then they would (but they don't).
Except for the fact that the lore doesn't say they -don't- exist, and if you're right about in-game environments being corrosive, they clearly -do-. Or is ME2 not a valid source of new lore?
Yes it does. It outright says that the kinetic barriers DON'T protect against these factors. How many times does it have to be pointed out to you. And just because it's shown in ME2 with no explanation doesn't just mean, "well, it must do then!" Again, the lore says it doesn, and that's just you excusing poor design and writing. The ME2 devs contract themselves and the lore all the time, and this is just another example of that. It's things like that that are causing this debate in the first place.
And you're assuming it would be very expensive, but I don't see any real informed reason to suggest that it would be -more- expensive than the magic thin "envirosuits" that completely protect people from the rigors of space travel. For all we know, the barrier option might be cheaper.
I'm basing it on both power and technology requirements in order to produce such a device. It's pretty damn obvious that the difference here is like saying, "what's cheaper? Some clothing, or a car?" Again, if it were cheaper and more logical, it would exist that way.
(Because obviously if something wasn't explicitly mentioned in ME1, it doesn't exist. After all, every game that might have sequels should think of all possible design needs and story demands before they even release the first game.)
-If- they -needed- protection, which is a point you have not demonstrated to my satisfaction, they may well -be- wearing it, in the form of a protective barrier.
Again, except that they're not. The Codex in both games tells us how kinetic barriers work and that they don't protect against anything much except for fast, incoming projectyles. That's what they're designed for, they're not made to protect the user from the hazards of space, that's why in the original game everybody who was out there in space wore proper, air-tight armour.
There's at several places where characters shouldn't be exposed in ME2, most notably Tarith and The Migrant Fleet (where in Ascension the humans had to undergo decontamination and wear full suits before they could come aboard, just jet Jack and Samara can just wander on with exposed skin). The only reason that the entire experience isn't totally ruined for me with ME2 is because there are admittedly few places where it's a major factor because we rarely go anywhere that dangerous hazard-wise on-foot.
Regarding your comment in the brackets, that's completely silly given the circumstances. Beyond the fact that it's stated countless times that, to put it simply, "KINETIC BARRIERS DO NOT WORK THAT WAY!!!" and that unless there's an explanation that comes along that explains it then it's just poorly handled and farcical, the whole factor is extremely stupid because it's one that's purely aesthetic and doesn't effect gameplay in the slightest. If everybody in ME2 had been wearing proper clothing, even if it was only during the necessary parts (i.e. whenever Shepard automatically dons a helmet) then the game wouldn't have played any differently whatsoever. It's a visual design choice and nothing more, but it's one that makes the entire universe a pathetic, unrealistic farce, after the team had done such a good job of making it coherent, consistent and (beyond the nature of its own pesudoscience) believable and realistic. It really is just a "Rule of Cool" factor and there's no reason for it to be beyond that, which overall makes it shallow and pathetic. While the thermal clip system may have logica and lore issues as well, it at least has the benefit of being an actual gameplay factor that has some substance to it. Squaddies running around exposed in poorly thought out outfits doesn't, it's just tragic and sad.
If one can just say, "well there must be an explanation and you must accept it" then where does it end with stupidity on the part of the design team? Do we just accept Shepard in ME3 in a vacuum not even wearing a helmet any more and just being able to talk fine? Do we just accept Shepard walking around the outside of The Normandy in space and having a conversation, not needing to breathe air, not having to worry about temperature or radiation, etc. Part of the whole mystery and danger of sci-fi is the fact that it generally acknowledges and properly respects the mystery and dangers of space itself. It's often one of the key tools at your disposal with sci-fi as a whole. When you turn that into a joke by treating it so lightly, you turn the whole IP into a joke as well. It's hard to think that Shepard's death in the opening sequence of ME2 is that big of a deal when later events make you think, "What's the big deal? Shepard should have no problems surviving that, thanks to whatever magical, mystery thing has been keeping my highly-exposed squaddies fine!"
Terror_K wrote...
Power requirements, the problems caused by it suddenly dropping, air supply, temperature regulation, the issues related to vacuum, and overall cost issues when simply air-tight clothing can already do the same thing better and more efficiently. Remember too that the only things that pass through the barriers The Citadel has are ships, not people, and a ship doesn't have to deal with those issues.
Terror_K wrote...
Power requirements, the problems caused by it suddenly dropping, air supply, temperature regulation, the issues related to vacuum, and overall cost issues when simply air-tight clothing can already do the same thing better and more efficiently. Remember too that the only things that pass through the barriers The Citadel has are ships, not people, and a ship doesn't have to deal with those issues.
Vena_86 wrote...
The right clothing for the right situation maybe? ME1 never had these problems. Neither the non-removable helmets nor the unrealistic outfits. So it's not impossible and further theorizing is unnecessary.
Also you should remember that the Mass Effect universe was designed as something believable you can relate to from the beginning. Breaking the most basic laws of physics in our reality and that of the established MAss Effect universe for no reason also breaks the integrity of the whole story.
In the end, what matters is that people have a harder time caring for all these characters, if the whole story and universe it takes place in is so obviously fake. If it works for you, fine. But don't expect that everyone else simply overlooks these obvious inconsistencies.
Oh why is she crying? Can't she just turn into a unicorn and make all problems go away with rainbows? Why doesn't Shepard just roundhouse-kick the Reapers away? Apparently everything is possible so why should I care about anything in this story.
Zanallen wrote...
Terror_K wrote...
Power requirements, the problems caused by it suddenly dropping, air supply, temperature regulation, the issues related to vacuum, and overall cost issues when simply air-tight clothing can already do the same thing better and more efficiently. Remember too that the only things that pass through the barriers The Citadel has are ships, not people, and a ship doesn't have to deal with those issues.
But once again, there is only one time where you are exposed to vacuum and that is the Shepard only prologue. The chlorine gas planet sidequest is silly, but you can choose who goes with you and I doubt they would create new outfits for the characters for one rather short sidequest.
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