Terror_K wrote...
The Lazarus Project doesn't ring the "stupidity!" alarmbells at all though. It doesn't contradict existing Mass Effect lore or science, isn't delved into directly as to how it was done, was clearly illustrated as being a very expensive and experimental venture with questionable success from the start, and can be dismissed by the existing pseudoscience already present in the ME lore.
Heavensrun wrote...
I wouldn't even agree that the chlorine gas planet sidequest is silly. Assuming that there -isn't- barrier technology that can protect a person from the effects of chlorine gas, we don't actually -know- the composition of that atmosphere, aside from "it has higher chlorine levels than earth". We don't know if they're dangerously high, we don't know what else is in the atmosphere. We don't know if the Chlorine is in a free gas or if it's bound up in gaseous molecules and compounds. In short, we don't -know- if the atmosphere is actually harmful, and if it -is-, we don't know if it's harmful enough to cause serious problems in the short time that your crew is exposed to it.
didymos1120 wrote...
Heavensrun wrote...
As far as why enemies have armor, well, I agree with you in a sense. The lore is fairly inconsistent about how well armor works. Codec entries imply it's helpful, but the first book, Written by Drew Karpyshin, implied that it was basically useless, at least in so far as I recall. (just read it once.)
No, in that book, what happened was the armor didn't hold up when kinetic barriers went down completely. But armor did catch or deflect stuff that had been slowed by them. Also, people tended to put fire on points where armor was weakest: joints, limbs, etc. That's pretty much in line with the Codex: you're screwed without shields, and the armor is a secondary defense only.
Captain_Obvious_au wrote...
So wait - because the most massive and advanced space station in the galaxy can keep in air with mass effect fields and a dense gas layer, that means that individuals can carry around their own portable mass effect fields and dense gas layer generator to keep in a 'bubble' of atmosphere with them? Really? Seriously, how long would that last until they died from using all of their oxygen?
Zanallen wrote...
Heavensrun wrote...
I wouldn't even agree that the chlorine gas planet sidequest is silly. Assuming that there -isn't- barrier technology that can protect a person from the effects of chlorine gas, we don't actually -know- the composition of that atmosphere, aside from "it has higher chlorine levels than earth". We don't know if they're dangerously high, we don't know what else is in the atmosphere. We don't know if the Chlorine is in a free gas or if it's bound up in gaseous molecules and compounds. In short, we don't -know- if the atmosphere is actually harmful, and if it -is-, we don't know if it's harmful enough to cause serious problems in the short time that your crew is exposed to it.
Well, as long as you aren't breathing it, you shouldn't die. However, you wouldn't want it in your eyes either. I think it would have to be pretty concentrated to do much damage to your skin, but that's based on wiki, so I don't really know.
didymos1120 wrote...
Captain_Obvious_au wrote...
So wait - because the most massive and advanced space station in the galaxy can keep in air with mass effect fields and a dense gas layer, that means that individuals can carry around their own portable mass effect fields and dense gas layer generator to keep in a 'bubble' of atmosphere with them? Really? Seriously, how long would that last until they died from using all of their oxygen?
Did I say anything like that? No? OK, then. Go find someone who did and bother them about it.
Vena_86 wrote...
The right clothing for the right situation maybe? ME1 never had these problems.
Heavensrun wrote...
Terror_K wrote...
The Lazarus Project doesn't ring the "stupidity!" alarmbells at all though. It doesn't contradict existing Mass Effect lore or science, isn't delved into directly as to how it was done, was clearly illustrated as being a very expensive and experimental venture with questionable success from the start, and can be dismissed by the existing pseudoscience already present in the ME lore.
But fields that protect from corrosive atmospheres -can't-? 0_o
Yes, yes you did. you implied it was possible in trying to shoot down Terror K's codex arguments.didymos1120 wrote...
Captain_Obvious_au wrote...
So wait - because the most massive and advanced space station in the galaxy can keep in air with mass effect fields and a dense gas layer, that means that individuals can carry around their own portable mass effect fields and dense gas layer generator to keep in a 'bubble' of atmosphere with them? Really? Seriously, how long would that last until they died from using all of their oxygen?
Did I say anything like that? No? OK, then. Go find someone who did and bother them about it.
But how could you keep a shell of air in? The codex states that there's a use of mass effect fields in conjunction with a dense gas layer that keeps the air in. The dense gas layer would prevent the oxygen/atmopshere layer from simply floating into space and being useless. How the mass effect fields work I have no idea - maybe they prevent the heavier gas payer from dropping too far and suffocating everyone?Heavensrun wrote...
Oooh! Oooh! I kinda did!
Well,
okay, what I said was that it's -possible- that individuals might be
able to carry around their own portable mass effect fields, but what's
this "dense gas layer whatever" thing? All that's being argued here is
that the thing might keep a shell of non-toxic atmosphere around a
person so that they can get by with a breathing mask instead of a full
suit.
This is, of course, -if- it's needed.
Captain_Obvious_au wrote...
Yes, yes you did. you implied it was possible in trying to shoot down Terror K's codex arguments.
Captain_Obvious_au wrote...
But how could you keep a shell
of air in? The codex states that there's a use of mass effect fields in
conjunction with a dense gas layer that keeps the air in. The dense gas
layer would prevent the oxygen/atmopshere layer from simply floating
into space and being useless. How the mass effect fields work I have no
idea - maybe they prevent the heavier gas payer from dropping too far
and suffocating everyone?
Modifié par Rurik_Niall, 15 avril 2011 - 05:53 .
Terror_K wrote...
Heavensrun wrote...
Terror_K wrote...
The Lazarus Project doesn't ring the "stupidity!" alarmbells at all though. It doesn't contradict existing Mass Effect lore or science, isn't delved into directly as to how it was done, was clearly illustrated as being a very expensive and experimental venture with questionable success from the start, and can be dismissed by the existing pseudoscience already present in the ME lore.
But fields that protect from corrosive atmospheres -can't-? 0_o
Fields that protect against toxins, temperature, pressure, radiation, etc. can't, no. Because, for umpteenth time, in order to protect against most of those things you'd need to create as close to a perfect vacuum as possible, and that would cause its own problems. Again, it's a simply case of it being completely impractical and illogical to create a kinetic field for protection when a form of protection already exists that doesn't cause other issues and isn't as limited or prone to failing. Coming up with a kinetic form of shielding to do these things doesn't only cause its own issues, but is a pointless solution to a problem that's already been solved.
Captain_Obvious_au wrote...
Yes, yes you did. you implied it was possible in trying to shoot down Terror K's codex arguments.didymos1120 wrote...
Captain_Obvious_au wrote...
So wait - because the most massive and advanced space station in the galaxy can keep in air with mass effect fields and a dense gas layer, that means that individuals can carry around their own portable mass effect fields and dense gas layer generator to keep in a 'bubble' of atmosphere with them? Really? Seriously, how long would that last until they died from using all of their oxygen?
Did I say anything like that? No? OK, then. Go find someone who did and bother them about it.But how could you keep a shell of air in? The codex states that there's a use of mass effect fields in conjunction with a dense gas layer that keeps the air in. The dense gas layer would prevent the oxygen/atmopshere layer from simply floating into space and being useless. How the mass effect fields work I have no idea - maybe they prevent the heavier gas payer from dropping too far and suffocating everyone?Heavensrun wrote...
Oooh! Oooh! I kinda did!
Well,
okay, what I said was that it's -possible- that individuals might be
able to carry around their own portable mass effect fields, but what's
this "dense gas layer whatever" thing? All that's being argued here is
that the thing might keep a shell of non-toxic atmosphere around a
person so that they can get by with a breathing mask instead of a full
suit.
This is, of course, -if- it's needed.
Heavensrun wrote...
I know somebody on these forums once spoke about the effects chlorine gas can have on a person, and It was...unpleasant. And if we had a quantifiable value on how high the chlorine concentration in the planet's atmo was, we might have a starting point to start criticising the squaddie outfits on the issue of toxic environs, but when it gets right down to it, I can think of no environments that Jack entered where there was any known toxicity issues.
Modifié par iakus, 15 avril 2011 - 06:14 .
Da Mecca wrote...
Can't do Jack about it now.
Modifié par Nelsonic Device, 15 avril 2011 - 06:00 .
Whereto wrote...
My main problem with liaras armor Is I like hard plate, her LotSB seemed more like fabric and I doubt it would do much against bullets or the elements. Also @Rurik, ya but what happens when the shields go down? You start immediately losing body heat, if your close to a sun you'll get a good dose of radiation and to top it all off, your clothing is going to have a few holes in it. I doubt u have much chance as soon as those shields go down. That's why hard suits and helmets are important. Oh and yes DxWill, it is important to me for them to wear hard suits, as it breaks my immersion in a other wise semi "believable" world
Modifié par 100k, 15 avril 2011 - 06:01 .
iakus wrote...
Heavensrun wrote...
I know somebody on these forums once spoke about the effects chlorine gas can have on a person, and It was...unpleasant. And if we had a quantifiable value on how high the chlorine concentration in the planet's atmo was, we might have a starting point to start criticising the squaddie outfits on the issue of toxic environs, but when it gets right down to it, I can think of no environments that Jack entered where there was any known toxicity issues.
Haestrom
Heavensrun wrote...
Jack never deals with radiation, or extreme temperatures, except on Haestrom, where, incidentally, it is -demonstrated- that the kinetic barriers -do- help with radiation.
100k wrote...
Whereto wrote...
My main problem with liaras armor Is I like hard plate, her LotSB seemed more like fabric and I doubt it would do much against bullets or the elements. Also @Rurik, ya but what happens when the shields go down? You start immediately losing body heat, if your close to a sun you'll get a good dose of radiation and to top it all off, your clothing is going to have a few holes in it. I doubt u have much chance as soon as those shields go down. That's why hard suits and helmets are important. Oh and yes DxWill, it is important to me for them to wear hard suits, as it breaks my immersion in a other wise semi "believable" world
See, I can even forgive that. So long as a character is completely covered, I can accept that, within the ME universe, they can survive in the vacuum. There could be any number of reasons for this.
Take Miranda for a second. So long as her entire body is covered by her cat suit, there could be an easy explanation for her ability to live in zero atmosphere and extreme temperatures: suit gel.
Imagine if most combat friendly gear had a thin coating of technological "smart gel" between the outer material, and the inner material. A "lining" if you will, like the feathers within a pillow. Perhaps Miranda, Samara, Zaeed, Thane, Liara, and Kasumi's suits have this. Whenever a suit is punctured, either by gun fire or hostile environment, the gel would instantly expand, covering the puncture, retaining oxygen, and keeping the wearer safe. On top of that, the smart gel might be able to retain body heat, and distribute that heat throughout the entire suit with only minimal fluctuations in temperatures.
(Ultimately this is a problem for all of those above, except Thane, who actually has, what I consider, a vacuum friendly mask AND suit. Miranda and Samara bear cleavage and necklines and wear small breathing masks, while Kasumi and Liara are better armored, but only wear breathing masks. This could have easily been changed, with them both wearing simple recon masks like Thane. Zaeed actually has a good mask on, but with his ears and skull exposed, the effect is slightly lost--not to mention his bare arms. You'll also notice that Jack has absolutely no good explanation for being able to survive in the vacuum. )
didymos1120 wrote...
Heavensrun wrote...
Jack never deals with radiation, or extreme temperatures, except on Haestrom, where, incidentally, it is -demonstrated- that the kinetic barriers -do- help with radiation.
I'm not sure you can draw that conclusion from Haestrom. I know it worked out as direct shield/barrier damage gameplay-wise, but so do varren bites. I got the impression that it was actually the electronics managing the shields that were getting messed with based on Tali's logs about that happening to electronic equipment in general. Also, Reegar's comment that his rocket launcher hadn't been wrecked yet.
In any case, you definitely can't draw that conclusion from Jack not getting a nasty sunburn, because I highly doubt the devs even considered it. I rather doubt they considered tacking on additional health damage if you took her or anyone else with exposed skin down there either, or that they bothered thinking through the barrier/shield distinction (they certainly didn't with armor and upgrades that, according to the text, work with suit systems to boost shields, but which also boost biotic barriers in practice).
Captain_Obvious_au wrote...
Yes, yes you did. you implied it was possible in trying to shoot down Terror K's codex arguments.
Heavensrun wrote...
100k wrote...
Whereto wrote...
My main problem with liaras armor Is I like hard plate, her LotSB seemed more like fabric and I doubt it would do much against bullets or the elements. Also @Rurik, ya but what happens when the shields go down? You start immediately losing body heat, if your close to a sun you'll get a good dose of radiation and to top it all off, your clothing is going to have a few holes in it. I doubt u have much chance as soon as those shields go down. That's why hard suits and helmets are important. Oh and yes DxWill, it is important to me for them to wear hard suits, as it breaks my immersion in a other wise semi "believable" world
See, I can even forgive that. So long as a character is completely covered, I can accept that, within the ME universe, they can survive in the vacuum. There could be any number of reasons for this.
Take Miranda for a second. So long as her entire body is covered by her cat suit, there could be an easy explanation for her ability to live in zero atmosphere and extreme temperatures: suit gel.
Imagine if most combat friendly gear had a thin coating of technological "smart gel" between the outer material, and the inner material. A "lining" if you will, like the feathers within a pillow. Perhaps Miranda, Samara, Zaeed, Thane, Liara, and Kasumi's suits have this. Whenever a suit is punctured, either by gun fire or hostile environment, the gel would instantly expand, covering the puncture, retaining oxygen, and keeping the wearer safe. On top of that, the smart gel might be able to retain body heat, and distribute that heat throughout the entire suit with only minimal fluctuations in temperatures.
(Ultimately this is a problem for all of those above, except Thane, who actually has, what I consider, a vacuum friendly mask AND suit. Miranda and Samara bear cleavage and necklines and wear small breathing masks, while Kasumi and Liara are better armored, but only wear breathing masks. This could have easily been changed, with them both wearing simple recon masks like Thane. Zaeed actually has a good mask on, but with his ears and skull exposed, the effect is slightly lost--not to mention his bare arms. You'll also notice that Jack has absolutely no good explanation for being able to survive in the vacuum. )
She doesn't -need- to, because she's never [i]in vacuum. None of them are, except Shepard, who is covered.
Heavensrun wrote...
Haestrom was a radiation hazard, not a toxic hazard, and it also constitutes practical evidence that the kinetic shields, at least in the ME2 timeframe, -can- protect against radiation.
Modifié par iakus, 15 avril 2011 - 06:18 .
Modifié par Terror_K, 15 avril 2011 - 06:22 .
100k wrote...
Hell, the more I think about it, the more it makes sense for this to be common with almost all combat gear, even heavy armor. Shepard could easily get a pin sized hole in the flexible/rubber inner suit (between the heavier plating), and have the oxygen in his suit be vacuumed away if he were in space, or get poisoned if he were in a hostile environment.
The last level of protection is provided by the suit's microframe computers, whose input detectors are woven throughout the fabric. These manage the self-healing system, which finds rents in the fabric and, assuming any such tear would wound the flesh underneath, seals the area off with sterile, non-conductive medi-gel. This stanches minor wounds and plugs holes in the suit that could prove fatal in vacuum or toxic environments. Soldiers are not always fond of the "squish skin" that oozes gel on them at a moment's notice, but fatalities have dropped sharply since the system was implemented.
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