214 réponses à ce sujet

[Zulu_DFA]

GuardianAngel470 wrote...

Also, rachni husks as proof that the Rachni will be bad guys is silly. Think about it; if the Rachni were always supposed to be our enemy and are always allied with the Reapers due to indoctrination or whatever, why turn them into husks? They'd be much more useful as normal indoctrinated slaves. Husks suck and can't really do much compared to say Saren.

Husks are usually made out of the expendable enemy; you don't convert perfectly capable allies into less capable husks. When you need expendable shock troops, huskify your enemy. Turn your enemy's numbers against them.

Personally, I see Rachni husks as proof that they aren't going to bite me in the butt. Which is a good thing cuz they spit acid and acid hurts.

Though it does make me wonder what paragon decision will come full circle on me. My money is on the Geth rewrite. Good thing I never actually do that.

The Rachni were never indoctrinated. They are incompatible enough with humanoid lifeforms by themselves.

The Reapers don't make allies. They indoctrinate. The Rachni are dood for indoctrination since all it takes is to indoctrinate one speciment of a queen and they've got a swarm of indoctrinated minions.

Husks =  cybernetically enhanced organics. It stands to reason that the Reapers enhance the Rachni before throing them in battle.

And no, rewriting the Heretics won't bite you. The "wrong" Geth-related choice is sending Legion to Cerberus, which means all Geth become Heretics and attack you.

Fiery Phoenix wrote...

didymos1120 wrote...

Fiery Phoenix wrote...

I'm fairly certain what the squad says in regards to the rachni queen is not dependent on their personalities, but more like what the game decides for you. At least, that's been the case with the majority of the series so far.

It's a priority thing.  Take Wrex, and Ash is pro-rachni-saving.  Take Kaidan, and she's not. 

Exactly, so it has nothing to do with Ashley personally.

I'm sorry, Zulu, but you're wrong in your assessment here. I mean, yes, the Queen may very well turn on us at some point, but the way you concluded that is invalid.

As I've alredy hinted I wasn't fully serious calling it a "proof". It's more like an indirect supportive evidence. And, knowing that I'd get the same "No, Zulu you nuts!" responses either way I decided against wasting time on carefully wording and presenting my whole train of thought. But here are a couple of bits:

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Ashley is more relevant than Liara, because she was written by the same writer as the Rachni. And she was the only ME1 companion written by him. Therefore, it's not even Ashley's suggestion about this specific Rachni business that is important, but rather her whole attitude (of which her 83% "kill'em" leanings are a particular case), as an indication of how the writer himself might have looked at the Rachni

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Anyway, part of my thinking was indeed along the "old TVs are penguins" line, so the whole Ashley's advice factor
with its flaw "Ashley can be paragon if Wrex is present" comes second to that. To clarify: given the vibe of other L'Etoile's writing for the series, I don't think he thought of the Rachni outside of the "Bugs" stereotype, which is also supported by the plausible speculation that the name "Rachni" is a result of trimming Heinlein's "Arachnids" at both ends, and that the Rachni Wars and the ME1 Rachni-related sidequests are tribute to Starship Troopers, the movie. And Peak 15 has clear references to Alien 4. So there is simply no redemption in the Rachni.

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 15 avril 2011 - 05:28 .

[Fiery Phoenix]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Ashley is more relevant than Liara, because she was written by the same writer as the Rachni. And she was the only ME2 companion written by him. Therefore, it's not even Ashley's suggestion about this specific Rachni business that is important, but rather her whole attitude (of which her 83% "kill'em" leanings are a particular case), as an indication of how the writer himself might have looked at the Rachni.

You probably mean ME1 there; Thane, Legion and EDI were all written by Chris L'Etoile.

[Zulu_DFA]

That's right, thanks, Phoenix. Correcting.

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 15 avril 2011 - 05:30 .

[Jzadek72]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Noveria and all Rachni sidequests in ME1 were written by Chris L'Etoile.

Ashley was written by Chris L'Etoile.

Ashley always advises you against freeing the Queen.

[smilie]http://social.bioware.com/images/forum/emoticons/wizard.png[/smilie]




Yeah, and, on an inconsequential note, the poll. (Percentages are a bit broken though, stupid BSN!)

Any writer worth his salt would know that a character's opinion doesn't equal right. Also, Ashley has told me to free the queen more than once.

EDIT: Just want to say that this doesn't mean it won't go wrong, just that it could go either way.

Modifié par Jzadek72, 15 avril 2011 - 05:33 .

[GuardianAngel470]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

GuardianAngel470 wrote...

Also, rachni husks as proof that the Rachni will be bad guys is silly. Think about it; if the Rachni were always supposed to be our enemy and are always allied with the Reapers due to indoctrination or whatever, why turn them into husks? They'd be much more useful as normal indoctrinated slaves. Husks suck and can't really do much compared to say Saren.

Husks are usually made out of the expendable enemy; you don't convert perfectly capable allies into less capable husks. When you need expendable shock troops, huskify your enemy. Turn your enemy's numbers against them.

Personally, I see Rachni husks as proof that they aren't going to bite me in the butt. Which is a good thing cuz they spit acid and acid hurts.

Though it does make me wonder what paragon decision will come full circle on me. My money is on the Geth rewrite. Good thing I never actually do that.

The Rachni were never indoctrinated. They are incompatible enough with humanoid lifeforms by themselves.

The Reapers don't make allies. They indoctrinate. The Rachni are dood for indoctrination since all it takes is to indoctrinate one speciment of a queen and they've got a swarm of indoctrinated minions.

Husks =  cybernetically enhanced organics. It stands to reason that the Reapers enhance the Rachni before throing them in battle.

And no, rewriting the Heretics won't bite you. The "wrong" Geth-related choice is sending Legion to Cerberus, which means all Geth become Heretics and attack you.

Let me get this straight. You're saying that the Rachni were never indoctrinated but they work for the reapers. You're also saying that Husks>Indoctrinated pawns.

As to the former point, I just have one question: Why are they working for the reapers again? If they aren't indoctrinated and never were indoctrinated then why would the Rachni ever work for the reapers? I mean, think of it this way. Say Sovereign approached the Rachni all those years ago. Say he did speak with the queens but didn't indoctrinate them. Why would an unindoctrinated race ever agree to risk their own safety to attack creatures they've never met and have had no relationships with?

Why would sparing the rachni bite you in the ass if an unindoctrinated race had no cause to attack? Indoctrination is the only reason the Rachni would attack, which brings me to point 2.

If you look at how the Reapers and their various minions operate, you see a trend. A heirarchy exists: Saren>Geth>=Collectors>Husks.

Key indoctrinated pawns like Saren hold the most sway and are allowed the most freedom.  Geth and Collectors share a middle ground in that they are both effectively the bread and butter of an operation. While a key figure like Saren leads them the Geth and Collectors execute the plans.

At the bottom of the barrel so to speak are the husks. Used mainly as cannon fodder or in the case of Scions as cannons, they have very limited capabilities. Scions shoot and walk, husks and abominations charge and slash/explode. The types of tactics that they employ are rudmentary compared to the Geth and the Collectors.

Husks are only slightly better than brain dead indoctrination slaves. They just aren't that capable compared to the indoctrinated.

[Zulu_DFA]

GuardianAngel470 wrote...

Let me get this straight. You're saying that the Rachni were never indoctrinated but they work for the reapers.

Not everything that is bad comes from the Reapers. The Rachni were bad by themselves.

But now, with the Reapers' arrival, they apperently get indoctrinated, enslaved, work for the Reapers, as evidenced by their huskification.

GuardianAngel470 wrote...

You're also saying that Husks>Indoctrinated pawns.

The "indoctrinated pawns" are good for special tasks. Husks are better as ground troops.

[Almostfaceman]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

GuardianAngel470 wrote...

Let me get this straight. You're saying that the Rachni were never indoctrinated but they work for the reapers.

Not everything that is bad comes from the Reapers. The Rachni were bad by themselves.

There's evidence to suggest strongly the Rachni were previously indoctrinated.  When you speak to the asari on Illium (if the Queen in spared in ME1).  The asari tells Shepard that the Queen believes Shepard is fighting the enemy who "soured the song of" the rachni.

Why would the Queen care to thank me and tell me this if she was planning on attacking humans or asari or if she was "already bad"?  I've already let her go and already filed a report to the Council, so her lying to me at this point is like letting the horses out after the barn's burned down.

Anyway, it's something to consider.

[Zulu_DFA]

Almostfaceman wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

GuardianAngel470 wrote...

Let me get this straight. You're saying that the Rachni were never indoctrinated but they work for the reapers.

Not everything that is bad comes from the Reapers. The Rachni were bad by themselves.

There's evidence to suggest strongly the Rachni were previously indoctrinated.  When you speak to the asari on Illium (if the Queen in spared in ME1).  The asari tells Shepard that the Queen believes Shepard is fighting the enemy who "soured the song of" the rachni.

Shepard fights Krogans, Salarians and Asari all over the galaxy.

Almostfaceman wrote...

Why would the Queen care to thank me and tell me this if she was planning on attacking humans or asari or if she was "already bad"?  I've already let her go and already filed a report to the Council, so her lying to me at this point is like letting the horses out after the barn's burned down.

What was the point of all those inconsequential cameos and e-mails in ME2?

What is the point of any lie?

Almostfaceman wrote...

Anyway, it's something to consider.

Something else to consider:

At Peak 15, the queen pretends to submit itself fully to Shepard's judgement. But if you choose to burn it, it tries to struggle and release itself. That's called deception.

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 15 avril 2011 - 06:51 .

[Kekkis]

Zulu_DFA wrote...


Not everything that is bad comes from the Reapers. The Rachni were bad by themselves.

But now, with the Reapers' arrival, they apperently get indoctrinated, enslaved, work for the Reapers, as evidenced by their huskification.

Rachni were bad, becouse they did not care about Reaper master plan to use everything that Reapers left behind. And anyone who ends up to husk spear will be huskified sooner, while rest of the (usually Cerberus) people, who hang around Reaper tech too long are Reaper slaves later. Sonya used later option to Rachni. She found a way to use Rachni to take over the Citadel, but then Grogans ruined that plan.

Reapers don´t have time to start careful slavemaking anymore, so they will make slaves from anyone they can put to the husk spear. So no matter with who you ally with, you will meet some of your old allies as Husks, that want to eat your brains.

I still can´t see why allying with Rachni is more bad, than good. Some of Rachni and lots of humans will be husks and if I get more allies I will see husks from those species as well. I am more worried if my gamble with Geth will be good.

[Welsh Inferno]

Arcian wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Something else to consider:

At Peak 15, the queen pretends to submit itself fully to Shepard's judgement. But if you choose to burn it, it tries to struggle and release itself. That's called deception.

No, that's called self-defence. The queen only points out that the decision rests with Shepard, not that she will be happy with the outcome.

I thought that was obvious myself <_<

[Almostfaceman]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Almostfaceman wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

GuardianAngel470 wrote...

Let me get this straight. You're saying that the Rachni were never indoctrinated but they work for the reapers.

Not everything that is bad comes from the Reapers. The Rachni were bad by themselves.

There's evidence to suggest strongly the Rachni were previously indoctrinated.  When you speak to the asari on Illium (if the Queen in spared in ME1).  The asari tells Shepard that the Queen believes Shepard is fighting the enemy who "soured the song of" the rachni.

Shepard fights Krogans, Salarians and Asari all over the galaxy.

Almostfaceman wrote...

Why would the Queen care to thank me and tell me this if she was planning on attacking humans or asari or if she was "already bad"?  I've already let her go and already filed a report to the Council, so her lying to me at this point is like letting the horses out after the barn's burned down.

What was the point of all those inconsequential cameos and e-mails in ME2?

What is the point of any lie?

Almostfaceman wrote...

Anyway, it's something to consider.

Something else to consider:

At Peak 15, the queen pretends to submit itself fully to Shepard's judgement. But if you choose to burn it, it tries to struggle and release itself. That's called deception.

Well so far the krogans, asari, and salarians don't exhibit mind control powers sufficient to control a queen and her minions.  This is why Shepard guesses first that she's talking about the Reapers. Here's the dialogue:

Shepard: I got that she was grateful, what did the rest of the message mean?

Asari messenger: That the first Rachni war was a mistake. Something soured the voices of her people. In Rachni psychology that would be like, mind control, I think.  It doesn't really translate.  Anyway, she believe you are fighting the one's who did that and she promises to help.

Shepard: She thinks the Reapers caused the Rachni war?

Then I asked "why would she lie if there's no point?" and you basicly answered my question with a question.  I don't think there's any point to lying to Shep 2 years after he's let her go. *shrug*

As far as Peak 15, I wouldn't call struggling to release yourself deception, I'd call it a self-preservation instinct.  But whatever.

[Zulu_DFA]

Kekkis wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Not everything that is bad comes from the Reapers. The Rachni were bad by themselves.

But now, with the Reapers' arrival, they apperently get indoctrinated, enslaved, work for the Reapers, as evidenced by their huskification.

Rachni were bad, becouse they did not care about Reaper master plan to use everything that Reapers left behind. And anyone who ends up to husk spear will be huskified sooner, while rest of the (usually Cerberus) people, who hang around Reaper tech too long are Reaper slaves later. Sonya used later option to Rachni. She found a way to use Rachni to take over the Citadel, but then Grogans ruined that plan.

There are two flaws with this:

1. If Sovereign had controlled the Rachni, it would know the location of the Mu relay

2. It is a documented fact, that the Racnhi did not attack until the Salarians intruded in their space.

Kekkis wrote...

Reapers don´t have time to start careful slavemaking anymore, so they will make slaves from anyone they can put to the husk spear. So no matter with who you ally with, you will meet some of your old allies as Husks, that want to eat your brains.

I still can´t see why allying with Rachni is more bad, than good.

Because the Rachni are bugs. Giant space bugs = bad.

Kekkis wrote...

Some of Rachni and lots of humans will be husks and if I get more allies I will see husks from those species as well. I am more worried if my gamble with Geth will be good.

If the Reapers indoctrinate the Queen, all Rachni are their slaves. Which I'm sure is the case. The Queen itself is too good a candidate for a level boss to pass up. Too bad I'm not getting it.

Arcian wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Something else to consider:

At Peak 15, the queen pretends to submit itself fully to Shepard's judgement. But if you choose to burn it, it tries to struggle and release itself. That's called deception.

No, that's called self-defence. The queen only points out that the decision rests with Shepard, not that she will be happy with the outcome.

And by self-defending, it points out that the decision never rested with Shepard, but it had already decided that it was going out, with Shepard's help or not.

Almostfaceman wrote...

Then I asked "why would she lie if there's no point?" and you basicly answered my question with a question.  I don't think there's any point to lying to Shep 2 years after he's let her go. *shrug*

Buying more time?

Almostfaceman wrote...

As far as Peak 15, I wouldn't call struggling to release yourself deception, I'd call it a self-preservation instinct.  But whatever.

The self-defense is not deception. The pretence that it's not going to defend itself is.

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 15 avril 2011 - 07:14 .

[DxWill10]

LOL @ the poll.

Anyway, no. The Rachni Queen will aid Shepard in defeating the reapers.

Man Zulu, I imagine your first ME3 playthrough will be very un-enjoyably for you, considering probably half the game will consist of things happening the exact opposite way you've been saying on the forums.

Modifié par DxWill10, 15 avril 2011 - 07:11 .

[Thargorichiban]

Has anyone considered that the husk featured in GI that kind of looks like a Rachni could also just as easily be a Keeper husk? I've looked at both character models and to me it seems like a toss-up.

In fact, it seems more likely that they would be Keeper husks instead of Rachni husks since many people wiped out the Rachni. It is possible that all Reapers have Keepers living inside their support structure as laborers, repair units, and guards in case of a Reaper getting boarded.

Husk Keepers would be much more easily controlled than even regular Keepers and augmented to be much more dangerous as guards...

Just a thought.

[Almostfaceman]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Almostfaceman wrote...

Then I asked "why would she lie if there's no point?" and you basicly answered my question with a question.  I don't think there's any point to lying to Shep 2 years after he's let her go. *shrug*

Buying more time?

Almostfaceman wrote...

As far as Peak 15, I wouldn't call struggling to release yourself deception, I'd call it a self-preservation instinct.  But whatever.

The self-defense is not deception. The pretence that it's not going to defend itself is.

Buying more time is a possibility, though I'm not sure why she'd feel the need to buy more time, since it's obvious I'm not pursuing her.  Did her scout ships pick me up spying on her or something?  Nah.

With regards to Peak 15 - this is why I said "instinct". In humans the instinct for self-preservation is strong, don't see why it would be different for any other life form.  She knows she's trapped and doomed, but she gives in to her instinct to try to survive despite the odds.  I don't have a problem with that.

Modifié par Almostfaceman, 15 avril 2011 - 07:31 .

[The BS Police]

Zulu_DFA wrote...
1. If Sovereign had controlled the Rachni, it would know the location of the Mu relay

Sovereign at that time didn't even know the importance of the Ilos and the Coundouit at that time, it wasn't untill Saren found the first Beacon where the Mu Relay became important to Sovereigns plans.

[Gamer790]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Gamer790 wrote...

How about we wait for the actual game to come out or an official confirmation before we presume anything.

Where is the fun in that? I mean, Mass Effect series has degenerated into a dull 3rd person  pew-pew arcade with a series of plot holes to justify the pew-pewing, so all it's good for is now betting on where they will miss out on a plot hole.

Are you suggesting that ME 1 was free of plot holes or things that didn't seem to make sense?  If so then could you please answer a question for me?  If the Mu Relay's location was unknown prior to extracting it from the Rachni queen's memory than how is it that anyone knew about Ilos before the mission to Norvaria.  Liara said that she remembered Ilos from her studies.  That implies that galactic society had known about it before hand.  Now I could accept it if there were other, longer ways to reach Ilos, but the salarian council member states that it is accessible ONLY through the Mu relay.  How can one know about a planet and visit and study that planet without knowing the only way to reach it beforehand?  Now if this has all ready been answered then pardon me, but in all of the time that I have spent reading over these fourms I've yet to see someone address this question.

Modifié par Gamer790, 15 avril 2011 - 08:08 .

[Zulu_DFA]

Almostfaceman wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Almostfaceman wrote...

Then I asked "why would she lie if there's no point?" and you basicly answered my question with a question.  I don't think there's any point to lying to Shep 2 years after he's let her go. *shrug*

Buying more time?

Almostfaceman wrote...

As far as Peak 15, I wouldn't call struggling to release yourself deception, I'd call it a self-preservation instinct.  But whatever.

The self-defense is not deception. The pretence that it's not going to defend itself is.

Buying more time is a possibility, though I'm not sure why she'd feel the need to buy more time, since it's obvious I'm not pursuing her.  Did her scout ships pick me up spying on her or something?  Nah.

With regards to Peak 15 - this is why I said "instinct". In humans the instinct for self-preservation is strong, don't see why it would be different for any other life form.  She knows she's trapped and doomed, but she gives in to her instinct to try to survive despite the odds.  I don't have a problem with that.

And that, I mean the instincts, is what makes the Rachni so dangerous. After all, their self-defense instincts caused the Rachni Wars.

The BS Police wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

1. If Sovereign had controlled the Rachni, it would know the location of the Mu relay

Sovereign at that time didn't even know the importance of the Ilos and the Coundouit at that time, it wasn't untill Saren found  the first Beacon where the Mu Relay became important to Sovereigns plans.

But it knew the importance of mass relays in general, especially for such business as a galactic war.

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 15 avril 2011 - 08:14 .

[ISpeakTheTruth]

Who wants to wait for the game to come out so we can see who was right and who was wrong rather than having an endless circular argument where neither side is going to agree on anything? Hands?

*Raises hand*

[Zulu_DFA]

Gamer790 wrote...

If the Mu Relay's location was unknown prior to extracting it from the Rachni queen's memory than how is it that anyone knew about Ilos before the mission to Norvaria.  Liara said that she remembered Ilos from her studies.  That implies that galactic society had known about it before hand.  Now I could accept it if there were other, longer ways to reach Ilos, but the salarian council member states that it is accessible ONLY through the Mu relay.  How can one know about a planet and visit and study that planet without knowing the only way to reach it beforehand?  Now if this has all ready been answered then pardon me, but in all of the time that I have spent reading over these fourms I've yet to see someone address this question.

Liara (and the Ilos entry in the Codex) says that Ilos is known to the Asari from the studies of the Prothean ruins elsewhere. Like, say, from an ancient Prothean star chart, with the Mu relay on it. Only the Mu relay isn't there, so they can't go to Ilos. Nobody was visiting Ilos before Saren and Shepard.

Codex entry for Ilos

=== Planets: Ilos ===
 
Like the ancient human city of Troy, Ilos is a world known only through second-hand sources. References
to Ilos have been found at several other Prothean ruins, though direct study of the world is unlikely to
occur.
 
Ilos lies in a remote area of the Terminus Systems only accessible by the legendary Mu Relay. Four
thousand years ago, the Mu Relay was knocked out of position by a supernova and lost. Since then, Ilos
and its cluster have been inaccessible.
 
Occasionally, a university will organize an expedition to chart a route to Ilos using conventional FTL
drive. These never get beyond the planning stages due to the distance and danger. The journey could
take years or decades, passing through the hostile Terminus Systems and dozens of unexplored systems.

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 15 avril 2011 - 08:22 .

[Gamer790]

The BS Police wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...
1. If Sovereign had controlled the Rachni, it would know the location of the Mu relay

Sovereign at that time didn't even know the importance of the Ilos and the Coundouit at that time, it wasn't untill Saren found the first Beacon where the Mu Relay became important to Sovereigns plans.

Frankly what I am having a hard time fathoming is how the reapers were never able to find and destroy the conduit 50, 000 years prior ME 1.  Sure the Protheans cut it off from the rest of the galaxy, but the reapers, as Vigil stated, knew everything about the protheans from the citidal.  I am I to believe that replicating a mass relay, probably the biggest scientific achievement of its time, would go undocumented in the central seat of the galactic government?  What, was this a splinter faction of the protheans who were rebeling against the greater whole of society by studying the inner workings and origins of the mass relays?

Modifié par Gamer790, 15 avril 2011 - 08:22 .

[Almostfaceman]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

And that, I mean the instincts, is what makes the Rachni so dangerous. After all, their self-defense instincts caused the Rachni Wars.

No, you said the Queen was practicing deception and that that's what made her so dangerous, you didn't mention instinct anywhere.  

With regards to what started the war we have us this here Rachni Queen sending us a message through some asari...  

[Zulu_DFA]

Gamer790 wrote...

The BS Police wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...
1. If Sovereign had controlled the Rachni, it would know the location of the Mu relay

Sovereign at that time didn't even know the importance of the Ilos and the Coundouit at that time, it wasn't untill Saren found the first Beacon where the Mu Relay became important to Sovereigns plans.

Frankly what I am having a hard time fathoming is how the reapers were never able to find and destroy the conduit 50, 000 years prior ME 1.  Sure the Protheans cut it off from the rest of the galaxy, but the reapers, as Vigil stated, knew everything about the protheans from the citidal.  I am I to believe that replicating a mass relay, probably the biggest scientific achievement of its time, would go undocumented in the central seat of the galactic government?  What, was this a splinter faction of the protheans who were rebeling against the greater whole of society by studying the inner workings and origins of the mass relays?

Dude, Vigil was lying too.