36 réponses à ce sujet

[SuicidalBaby]

(PREPATCH)
Be aware: This is going to be a high end tactic discussion. If you need a reference to understand what is being covered, refer to the link in my signature.

Waltzingbear wrote...

Eureka!!
The source of all of these problems is so simple that it doesn't even come to mind at first.

I really don't know how anyone hasn't noticed this before:
- Skip Tactics condition is in fact not bugged and working as intended.
- Jump To Tactic condition is actually bugged in the manner that it will jump to tactic X-1, when X is the tactic number it is configured to jump to.

So what's really happening is:
1. ally: hp: <50%: Heal                         ► Anders will use Heal properly
2. ally: hp: <50%: jump to tactic: 12     ► tactics will jump to 11
 ......
11. self: at least 1 enemy alive: skip tactics   ► skips tactics

All you need to do to fix this is to to change #2 to " jump to tactic: 13 " and it will actually jump to 12.

Watch this- clicky here
► Anders activates Heroic Aura; uses Heal on Hawke; deactivates Heroic Aura; activates Panacea; uses Aid Allies.

Recently I attempted to create a synergy between Merril & Anders in order to take advantage of every "Aid Allies" cast he performed while Merrill was 75% health or lower, this failed miserably. But while I was working out a few issues, I noticed Anders Jump tactic was not behaving as it should. Or more accurately, not in the identicle manner as Hawke's Jump tactic. This also revealed, among other differences in behavior, that while Hawke's, "ally: hp: <50%: Heal" will in fact trigger a self heal under 50% hp, Anders' "ally:" does not.

Setup:

1. ally: hp: <50%: Heal
2. ally: hp: <50%: jump to tactic: 13
3. self: any: deactivate: Panacea
4. enemy: STAGGERED: Chain Lightning
5. enemy: attacking Hawke: Petrify
6. enemy: attacking Merrill: Stonefist
7. enemy: clustered w 3 enemies: Tempest
8. self: at least 5 enemies alive: Haste
9. self: mana: <75%: activate: Heroic Aura
10. self: any: activate: Rock Armor
11. self: at least 1 enemy alive: skip tactics
12. self: any: deactivate: Heroic Aura
13. ally: hp: <50%: activate: Panacea
14. ally: hp: <50%: Aid Allies


WORKS!

Modifié par SuicidialBaby, 16 avril 2011 - 01:45 .

[Zachriel]

I haven't tried doing any kind of jump tactics with any other companions, but can confirm that what you're seeing also happens in the PC version with Anders. I tried running a similar set up with him last night, and as soon as the jump happened he would not do anything beyond that step.

[SuicidalBaby]

Forwarded this to Luke Barrett:
reply:
None of the tactics have been touched right now but we're going to try to do a very large sweep of them in the future. I'll put this post in the pile - feel free to keep making bugs/issues concerning the tactics though as we will get to it eventually.

So it is going to be fixed at some point in the future. Issues involving simply being able to play the game are clearly a higher priority at the moment, but it is good to see they are not going to overlook the little things.

[Amioran]

The tactics of Anders are totally bugged. Many times they swap, they change potions around (for example Lyrium with Elfroot or Health). Many times when you close and reopen them (I still don't have exact parameters on why and when this happens) in certain situations all the jumps are mistaken and conditions broken and you have to adjust them manually.

It seems that both the AI and behaviour of Anders is totally broken. These things almost never happens with the other companions (apart maybe erasing the potions, and apart maybe Varric that mistakes jumps) but they are consistent with him. It is a major pain every time checking if the tactics of Anders work as they should, and also if they are in any case they don't work because lines are processed not lineary. You can have Haste before Vengeance and have Vengeance activated before Haste (or similar). You can have Glyph of Repulsion before attacking and instead it happens later etc.

In little words: at last on PC Anders is totally broken.

[ezrafetch]

Yeah, Anders' tactics (and most companions' tactics, for that matter) don't really work especially well outside of the more basic commands. On my 3 Archers/1 Anders playthrough, I've starting using the tactical pause a LOT more (ok, partially because it's not EXACTLY the most efficient party makeup out there) because some tactics just straight up don't happen.

I've also noticed that as soon as anyone chugs a potion via tactics, the tactic doesn't work because when you write "Health < 50% >>> Use: Health Potion," and the tactic triggers (or you do it yourself), when you check the tactics after it just says "Health < 50% >>> Use: _____________." My natural guess is that the tactic clears it since once you use a potion it may not count the number of remaining potions (or that it just assumes you're out of potions), leading the tactic to clear and leading to massive panic when you think the potion tactic should trigger when it doesn't.

[SuicidalBaby]

That one aspect was consistant with him while I was testing this out. Haste would trigger as if it was que'd from the previous pass through rather than after a needed heal.

The item issues you detailed seem to stem directly from the tactic use: item specificly and not just Anders. That has been troublesome across all characters in my experience. Anders may simply be compounding it with his own shortcomings.

To learn more about "use: item" issues click the Advanced Tactics link in my signature.

Modifié par SuicidialBaby, 14 avril 2011 - 06:19 .

[Waltzingbear]

SuicidialBaby wrote...
1. ally: hp: <50%: Heal
2. ally: hp: <50%: jump to tactic: 12
3. self: any: deactivate: Panacea
4. enemy: STAGGERED: Chain Lightning
5. enemy: attacking Hawke: Petrify
6. enemy: attacking Merrill: Stonefist
7. enemy: clustered w 3 enemies: Tempest
8. self: at least 5 enemies alive: Haste
9. self: mana: <75%: activate: Heroic Aura
10. self: any: activate: Rock Armor
11. self: at least 1 enemy alive: skip tactics
12. self: any: deactivate: Heroic Aura
13. ally: hp: <50%: activate: Panacea
14. ally: hp: <50%: Aid Allies

Under Hawke, these tactics work flawlessly with a SH set up. In this case the jump occurs as planned but will not follow the path past tactic 12 in any situation. I need this confirmed on xbox/pc.

By this do you mean that if an ally is below 50% health Anders will deactivate Heroic Aura but will ignore 13,14 ?

[SuicidalBaby]

correct, it will stick to 12 and not go through the path as intended
if the condition on 12 is already met he should proceed down the line to 13, he doesn't.
Anders, specificly, has other issues with his behavior and general tactics reading.  He is unique in this condition, where he will ignore the order of tactics set and fire off any damn tactic he pleases. 
To clearly meet your definition one should look at Avaline while using identicle condition tactics for different abilities.

on Hawke the path follows this:
1. ally: <50%: if yes: heal and return to 1: if no or cooldown go to next tactic
2. ally: <50%: if yes: jump to 12**: if no go to next tactic
.
.
12: self: any: deactivate: Heroic Aura and return to 1: if already deactivated go to next tactic**
13: ally: hp <50%: if yes: activate Healing Aura and return to 1: if no or already activated go to next tactic
14: ally: hp <50%: if yes: Group Heal and return to 1: if no or on cooldown return go to next tactic
(being this is the last tactic, it will return to 1)


laid that out for everyone to understand a little clearer as to what should be occuring.

**"the jump failing" means either that the character has found a condition to trigger the jump and after that jump can not execute the condition that should already be met by the occurance of the jump or will not follow the designed path following the tactic jumped to when all conditions should be met at that point for the following tactics to simply fire.  This results in the character falling into an endless loop of completed tactics where they only stand still or auto attack untill cooldowns resolve.

Modifié par SuicidialBaby, 14 avril 2011 - 07:30 .

[Waltzingbear]

I've tested it while setting a similar tactics string and this is what I found.

Anders uses Heal on himself with Ally: health<50%

Tactic #2 seems to be working properly- he will not use any of the abilities in 3-10 nor will he deactivate Panacea or activate Heroic Aura if an ally's health is below 50%.

Tactics 12,13,14 will not execute.

If you disable tactic #11 Anders will execute 12,13,14 as intended.

The Skip Tactics condition seems to be working regardless of the tactics' priority, meaning that if at least x enemies are alive all the tactics thereafter will be disabled automatically.

This is in fact what you're experiencing; the tactics are stuck in the following loop:
1. ally: hp: <50%: Heal        ► Anders will use Heal properly
2. ally: hp: <50%: jump to tactic: 12     
      The tactics will jump to 12...
► Tactics 12,13,14 are disabled thus no action will commence and the tactics will return back to the start.

This seems to be universal to any Skip Tactics condition and shares the same effect with Wait. I don't know of any other function that you can use in the tactics to achieve what you're trying to.

I'm playing on the PC.

Modifié par Waltzingbear, 14 avril 2011 - 08:58 .

[SuicidalBaby]

ok so ally: heal is different for pc and ps3 when concerning Anders self as part of ally:

Its as I figured. Anders own issues with tactics order is applying the skip tactics effect on tactics not specificly triggered by the jump.  The problem is not that skip tactics doesn't work, its Anders' unique application of the effect of skip tactics.  It's as if he lacks a command structure when it comes to reading tactics and simply applies all as read with no real order to the application other than applying a base condition from skip tactics to any tactic suceeding it on the list.  ps3 had Anders firing the tactic that was jumped to, 12, but did not continue.

The methodology works on Avaline, her tactics wont even fire the jumped to tactic even if it matches the jump's condition.  But apply if conditions are met after all enemies are dead as per skip tactics condition.  Which may imply a colision between the 2 effects of skip tactics and jump in her tactics structure.

All of this with the understanding that both jump and skip tactics work properly on Hawke and Merrill, which implies there is something wrong with Anders' and Avaline's tactics at this point in time.  Remaining companions still require testing.

note: Avaline appears to have a standard tactic structure which follows the order tactics are placed in.  The issue may simply come down to the collision of jump and skip tactics when it comes to her and not a total breakdown like Anders.

Modifié par SuicidialBaby, 14 avril 2011 - 10:04 .

[Waltzingbear]

Doesn't work with Hawke or other companions as well.
Skip Tactics will simply cause any tactics succeeding it to stop functioning if its condition is met.

[SuicidalBaby]

The jump tactics format in the OP works on PS3 for Hawke and Merrill, triggering tactics placed after "skip tactics."

You tested this on all companions for PC?

Modifié par SuicidialBaby, 14 avril 2011 - 10:07 .

[Waltzingbear]

I did now, same problem with all companions including both siblings.

[SuicidalBaby]

that just does not make sense, why would a feature which was broken work after porting.

we definitely need a xbox confirm now.

[Sylriel]

Hi, Suicidal.

I can confirm what the big teddy bear has said on the PC. The tactics you suggested for me for Merrill that uses it over at the Advanced Tactics thread does not work as intended.

7. enemy: STAGGERED: jump to tactic 19
-
18. self: at least 1 enemy is alive: skip tactics
19. enemy: rank is elite or higher: Crushing Prison
20. enemy: staggered: Chain Lightning

Merrill will not fire off Chain Lightning or Crushing Prison on a staggered enemy unless tactic 18 is removed or deactivated. I did not see this right away because I had made changes to Merrill's tactics list and ended up removing that line before actually getting into an encounter where she could have used it.

I went back just now and tested the original tactics for Merrill and also tested my other companions. SkipTactics will cause everything below it to be skipped when the condition for it is true even if you have a Jump To trying to bypass it.

[SuicidalBaby]

Have either of you patched yet?
ok, editting OP & associated threads.

lol finally a porting issue that benifets ps3 users. Truly a red letter day in gaming.

Modifié par SuicidialBaby, 15 avril 2011 - 01:34 .

[SuicidalBaby]

So correct me if Im wrong,

Skip Tactics is working, just too well. The problem is not jump.

[Sylriel]

I have patched my game, yes.

Yes. Skip Tactics when condition is met basically disables everything underneath it in my game.

[SuicidalBaby]

when all it should be affecting is the order in which tactics are read.

so the porting fouled up the bug allowing me to use it as intended.

[Waltzingbear]

Jump is okay for the most part. Although I've seen some weird things with it, the problems seem to occur from other tactics messing things up. That's why I think the problem with Skip Tactics is a bug and not intentional.

For example, using this: (ignore the logic, it's just an example)
1) Ally: Health<50% ► Heal
2) Self: X enemies alive ► Jump to 4
3) Ally: Health<50% ► Aid Allies
4) Self: Mana<10% ► Lyrium potion
will cause Anders to use Aid Allies before Heal.
** I'm pretty sure somthing similar happened to me earlier twice but testing it right now does not produce it. Maybe it was a different configuration or I was just mistaking something, I'll have to test it again later.

I don't know what's the difference between Wait and Skip Tactics but while the current state of them could simplify things for certain tactics scenarios, one of them ought to only reset the tactics chain if reached subsequently and to have no effect if a tactic jumped above it.

Modifié par Waltzingbear, 15 avril 2011 - 03:01 .

[SuicidalBaby]

wait forces a hold until the condition ceases to exist.

that example threw me.

[Amioran]

In theory the line should work this way: skip tactics should skip ALL tactics after the line and return to 1. However a "jump to:" would, again, in theory, overcome this skipping if it is considered before and the jumping is after.
 
I will test it a bit in game and watch in the tables (if there are about this issue) to see why it behaves this way on PC.

Let's see if I find the source of the problem.

Modifié par Amioran, 15 avril 2011 - 06:22 .

[SuicidalBaby]

altered thread title to match the actual issue at hand.

[NaclynE]

Yeah the tactics system in the game are problematic. Like I usually set Anders for Enemy:attacking party member: Anders then Frozen cone (whatever the name is, the close range one) and Anders physically runs out in the heat of battle to get himself some. I remember when I had that setup the mages only do it only as a defensive thing not to physically run out and do it.

[SuicidalBaby]

Anders is unique in his suicidal tendencies