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So, Red Lyrium...?


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#1
Mnemnosyne

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I keep seeing various theories or comments about red lyrium in one place or another, but there's a lot about this concept that confuses me and I'm hoping maybe it can get cleared up.  To start off, I don't even know if 'red lyrium' is actually intended to be something distinct in the lore or not.  Here's what I know about lyrium, both from lore and gameplay:

Lyrium has a bad history of having gameplay really, really not match up with lore.  See the 'healing lyrium' of DA:O, specifically in the Anvil of the Void area.  Healing lyrium in the Fade is one thing, where it's not really lyrium and you're not really touching it, but healing lyrium in the Anvil of the Void is clearly real, physical raw lyrium and instead of causing the horrible and harmful effects on humans/elves that it's supposed to, it heals.  I vaguely recall a post admitting this was a gameplay mechanic that makes no sense lore-wise.

In DA:O, Lyrium is distinct and glows bluish-green and all uses the same model, in both the Fade and in the Anvil of the Void.  It exists in no other areas of the game.  In Awakenings, the piles of lyrium sand were purple.  There were no lyrium veins in the game at all.  In DA2, all lyrium that is labeled as such is red.  Every vein of raw lyrium, corrupted lyrium, and refined lyrium in the game, whether it's in the deep roads or not, is a small grey mound with slight red glow coming from streaks within it.

When we enter the deep roads, we have gigantic glowing crystalline 'roots' growing all over the side-caverns.  In the deep roads section before reaching the Primeval Thaig, these 'roots' are blue, and in the Primeval Thaig, they are red.  Some people believe them to be lyrium.  As far as I know, there is no actual indication that these things are lyrium at all - if they were, they would presumably be valuable?  Someone would mention them?  Something?  They may be some other naturally ocurring luminescent crystal?  Does anyone have any confirmation that these crystals and roots are actually lyrium?

In DA2, lyrium is again treated significantly differently in gameplay than in lore.  The lore states that only dwarves (and perhaps tranquil?) can mine and handle raw lyrium safely, and that even surface dwarves lose their ability to do this.  But we find deposits of lyrium throughout the Kirkwall area that are presumably being used by our suppliers to craft the things we order.

Then we have the idol itself: if red lyrium is some sort of highly unusual or perhaps even unique thing, that only exists within the Primeval Thaig, how is it that Hawke and Varric instantly recognize that the idol is made of lyrium, if it is made of some new and unique type of lyrium?  Wouldn't there be a 'but...it's red...' line there somewhere?  For that matter, why would Hawke reach out and grab it?  Does she not know raw lyrium is deadly poison to humans even to the touch?  Is she just being foolhardy in expecting to pass it off to Bartrand immediately without ill effects, rather than simply allowing Varric and Bartrand to be the ones to handle the thing?  Or is this another case of what we see not quite matching up to how the lore says it's supposed to be?

At this point, I don't know if the conclusion that 'red lyrium' is distinct from normal lyrium is the right one to come to.  I don't know if we should be speculating about the effects of 'red lyrium' at all, given that it seems entirely possible such a thing is not even meant to exist, story-wise.

If at all possible, it'd be nice to get some absolute confirmation on whether 'red lyrium' is actually intended to be distinct or not so we can direct our speculation correctly?

Edit: Removed a line which was incorrect, after having replayed that scene: Varric does make a comment stating "doesn't look like any kind of lyrium I've ever seen" in reference to the idol.  Still no reference to the color, however.  The idol may itself be a unique type of lyrium, or perhaps the result of a unique refinement process - or it may not even be lyrium at all, and that's just pure speculation by the characters.

Modifié par Koyasha, 14 avril 2011 - 04:26 .


#2
Girl on a Rock

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Excellent question, excellent post. I'm interested to hear the answer(s)!

#3
RainyDayLover

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Red Lyrium converts your sword into a lightsaber.

/thread

Modifié par RainyDayLover, 14 avril 2011 - 04:15 .


#4
TheBlackBaron

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Not much else to add other than to hope that David Gaider finds this thread eventually. Good post.

#5
David Gaider

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Koyasha wrote...
If at all possible, it'd be nice to get some absolute confirmation on whether 'red lyrium' is actually intended to be distinct or not so we can direct our speculation correctly?


The lyrium in the Primeval Thaig is absolutely different from lyrium you would normally expect to see, yes.

#6
mesmerizedish

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Anyone else think Mr. Gaider routinely searches the forums for the word "Gaider"? He replies so quickly, and in the exact places he's needed. He's like a superhero.

#7
Super_Fr33k

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Gaider is in your head, right now. He knows all. Including that thing you did with that spatula when you were six. Freak.

#8
Loc'n'lol

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David Gaider wrote...

Koyasha wrote...
If at all possible, it'd be nice to get some absolute confirmation on whether 'red lyrium' is actually intended to be distinct or not so we can direct our speculation correctly?


The lyrium in the Primeval Thaig is absolutely different from lyrium you would normally expect to see, yes.


Thanks !
so, no-one seems to remark in-game because ?...
-they are too busy trying to get away with as much loot as possible
-they don't know **** about lyrium
-an oversight ?

Modifié par _Loc_N_lol_, 14 avril 2011 - 04:44 .


#9
_Aine_

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Maybe it is a super-human script he has programmed to look insanely productive. Quick, someone type something with two random DA words, like... "tranquil" and "apostate" and see what pops out next. :)

kidding. ;)

On topic: Interesting that they are two different beasts. So, the connection to the Fade lyrium is blue, and Anders possessed by Justice/Vengeance/demon is also blue.... so a fade being. When Meredith is ....errrr.... contaminated (possessed?) she glows all red too. So, a different source of power -- makes me wonder, since Justice clearly went bad and still came up as a Fade being what the source of the red glowing is, since it isn't as simple as a benevolent (or not) being. Well, if all the spirits cleverly colour code themselves that is. It *would* be easier though. Name badges would work too.  Interesting! I wonder then, is there was a very good reason that Thaig was well sealed off. Would certainly seem so. 

Hmm. Has the lyrium simply been contaminated/corrupted and therefore different, or just altogether different from the start?   And why wasn't Hawke affected by the idol like everyone else?   Ha. Maybe there really *was* something in the water in Kirkwall.  :wizard:

Modifié par shantisands, 14 avril 2011 - 04:58 .


#10
Mnemnosyne

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David Gaider wrote...

Koyasha wrote...
If at all possible, it'd be nice to get some absolute confirmation on whether 'red lyrium' is actually intended to be distinct or not so we can direct our speculation correctly?


The lyrium in the Primeval Thaig is absolutely different from lyrium you would normally expect to see, yes.

Interesting, and thanks much for the confirmation.  I was beginning to wonder whether the speculation about the lyrium itself was justified or not.

shantisands wrote...

On topic:
Interesting that they are two different beasts. So, the connection to
the Fade lyrium is blue, and Anders possessed by Justice/Vengeance/demon
is also blue.... so a fade being. When Meredith is ....errrr....
contaminated (possessed?) she glows all red too. So, a different
source of power -- makes me wonder, since Justice clearly went bad and
still came up as a Fade being what the source of the red glowing is,
since it isn't as simple as a benevolent (or not) being. Well, if all
the spirits cleverly colour code themselves that is. It *would* be
easier though. Name badges would work too.  Interesting! I wonder then,
is there was a very good reason that Thaig was well sealed off. Would
certainly seem so. I also wonder though why Hawke wasn't affected by
that idol?


As for why Hawke wasn't affected, I would assume that the very, very brief contact may not be enough to trigger much of any effects.  Hawke essentially grabbed the idol and instantly handed it to Varric.  I'd be more curious as to why Meredith wasn't affected (well, wasn't affected in the typical way one expects a human to be affected by coming in contact with lyrium - that is, a horrible death) since she possessed it for a considerable period of time.  Either the lyrium from the primeval thaig is not instantly poisonous to humans, or the process that created the idol, whatever that was, made it safe for humans to handle.

Also, remember lyrium in the fade isn't real lyrium - it's a spirit's mimicry of a dreamer's memory or imagination of what lyrium is.  We don't actually know what real lyrium is, other than the properties it has, and the only definite connection to the fade it has is that correctly processed lyrium enables mages to enter the fade.  Justice commented in Awakenings on the vast difference between real lyrium and the mimicry that is created by spirits in the Fade.  Lyrium and fade spirits are not necessarily connected in any way at all.  And the hunger demon in the primeval thaig didn't seem to consider the lyrium surrounding it anything special, beyond the fact that the profane consumed it.

#11
Foolsfolly

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David Gaider wrote...

Koyasha wrote...
If at all possible, it'd be nice to get some absolute confirmation on whether 'red lyrium' is actually intended to be distinct or not so we can direct our speculation correctly?


The lyrium in the Primeval Thaig is absolutely different from lyrium you would normally expect to see, yes.


What about the red Raw and Corrupted Lyrium Ingrediants we come across in Acts 2 and 3? Same as the red lyrium we see in the Primeval Thaig or different?

Related, what's up with red lyrium in Dragon Age: Origins (Lyrium dust is red).

#12
Jsixgun

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Very interesting!....I think there is more to this. Wouldn't be surprised to find out the various kinds of lyrium and their effects aren't even very tied to the lore of the old gods and the introduction of magic. Perhaps Gaider could expound, or perhaps they're planning on it in upcoming installments. Just a thought.

#13
tmp7704

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Koyasha wrote...

Also, remember lyrium in the fade isn't real lyrium - it's a spirit's mimicry of a dreamer's memory or imagination of what lyrium is.

If i remember right what Mr.Gaider wrote before, lyrium in the Fade is there pretty much just because it was deemed necessary for gameplay reasons, and as such best treated as "not really there".

#14
Fat_Slob

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I think raw lyrium is red, and when it is refined it turns blue, which includes those blue lyrium roots. The red lyrium in the primeval thaig is probably refined in a very different, ancient and perhaps dark/evil way.

#15
Amagoi

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David Gaider wrote...

Koyasha wrote...
If at all possible, it'd be nice to get some absolute confirmation on whether 'red lyrium' is actually intended to be distinct or not so we can direct our speculation correctly?


The lyrium in the Primeval Thaig is absolutely different from lyrium you would normally expect to see, yes.


I bet it tastes like cherry. Cancer-ridden cherry too.

#16
nightscrawl

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Koyasha wrote...

When we enter the deep roads, we have gigantic glowing crystalline 'roots' growing all over the side-caverns.  In the deep roads section before reaching the Primeval Thaig, these 'roots' are blue, and in the Primeval Thaig, they are red.  Some people believe them to be lyrium.  As far as I know, there is no actual indication that these things are lyrium at all - if they were, they would presumably be valuable?  Someone would mention them?  Something?  They may be some other naturally ocurring luminescent crystal?  Does anyone have any confirmation that these crystals and roots are actually lyrium?


I kind of assumed that both blue and red mineral "roots" were lyrium, because the hunger demon in the Deep Roads expedition mentions that the profane feed on the lyrium, as well as the lyrium sharing the same root-like appearance as the Origins restorative lyrium veins.

Also concerning the expedition, you have to remember that their main purpose for being there was to find treasure/artifacts, it wasn't a mining expedition. They might have only brought such tools as needed to clear cave-ins or blocked paths. During Blackpowder Promise, Javaris reminds us of the problems posed by using lyrium: it's poisonous, the Chantry controls it topside, the glow makes you a target, etc. These issues alone wouldn't have made it worthwhile for Bartand to consider the lyrium worth the risk especially when there is supposed to be treasure lying around, waiting to be carried off.

If you look at the wiki entry for lyrium as a crafting resource in DA2, you will see 3 types of lyrium listed: refined, raw, and corrupted. Even though all of them look the same when you see them on the ground to loot, one might assume that they share different properties and have different levels of potency. As far as rune crafting in DA2 specifically, the person your order them from is a dwarf, so there is no lore issue there.


... I really need to learn to be more pithy on these forums -,-.

#17
TEWR

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ishmaeltheforsaken wrote...

Anyone else think Mr. Gaider routinely searches the forums for the word "Gaider"? He replies so quickly, and in the exact places he's needed. He's like a superhero.


I'm telling you, he's a ninja. And being a regular ninja isn't enough for him. He's also a cyber-ninja.

Super_Fr33k wrote...

Gaider is in your head, right now. He knows all. Including that thing you did with that spatula when you were six. Freak.


Wasn't a spatula. It was a rocking chair and a hammer. and I was 2.

#18
ColdEnd

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Lyrium is formed when mana crystalizes. The blue lyrium is Support Lyrium so it can have several beneficial effects. The idol was made out of yellow and red lyrium. This is Command and Summon Lyrium combined.

For more information about the types and effects of different color lyrium; and what lyrium does when placed into a "rune slot" on a weapon... (see here)

For ease of reading please replace the following words...
  • Lyrium = Materia
  • Mana = Mako
  • Materia Slot = Rune Slot
Hope this helps clarify.

Modifié par ColdEnd, 14 avril 2011 - 07:34 .


#19
whykikyouwhy

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shantisands wrote...

On topic: Interesting that they are two different beasts. So, the connection to the Fade lyrium is blue, and Anders possessed by Justice/Vengeance/demon is also blue.... so a fade being. When Meredith is ....errrr.... contaminated (possessed?) she glows all red too. So, a different source of power -- makes me wonder, since Justice clearly went bad and still came up as a Fade being what the source of the red glowing is, since it isn't as simple as a benevolent (or not) being. Well, if all the spirits cleverly colour code themselves that is. It *would* be easier though. Name badges would work too.  Interesting! I wonder then, is there was a very good reason that Thaig was well sealed off. Would certainly seem so. 



Koyasha wrote...

As for why Hawke wasn't affected, I would assume that the very, very brief contact may not be enough to trigger much of any effects.  Hawke essentially grabbed the idol and instantly handed it to Varric.  I'd be more curious as to why Meredith wasn't affected (well, wasn't affected in the typical way one expects a human to be affected by coming in contact with lyrium - that is, a horrible death) since she possessed it for a considerable period of time.  Either the lyrium from the primeval thaig is not instantly poisonous to humans, or the process that created the idol, whatever that was, made it safe for humans to handle.


If I could toss my two farthings into this discussion...(with the disclaimer that I may be repeating theories already posed, or I am completely off the mark due to caffeine depravation) - could it be that lyrium, while providing some link to the Fade to those who utilize it, also works in reverse? Demons and the like can transfer some of their essence or awareness into lyrium, depending on the type it is, the amount, etc. I see the lyrium relic as acting similarly to the glass vials in DA:O, though not with any sort of solid entity trapped within in. Maybe the relic is more like some kind of memory crystal, and so anyone in possession of it for a long enough time is prone to being overpowered by the thoughts and emotions of whatever imprinted itself. Bartrand, being perhaps weaker in character, fell to its power quickly. Whereas Meredith, who holds herself with a certain degree of discipline, took much longer to finally be warped by the red-tinted whispers.

Um...not the strongest of theories. Sorry. And I can't shake the whole red kryptonite parallel out of my mind.
(off to go seek a cup of coffee now)

#20
Ksandor

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David Gaider wrote...

Koyasha wrote...
If at all possible, it'd be nice to get some absolute confirmation on whether 'red lyrium' is actually intended to be distinct or not so we can direct our speculation correctly?


The lyrium in the Primeval Thaig is absolutely different from lyrium you would normally expect to see, yes.



Actually red usually used as the color of evil in games and other media. It is like red alert, blood red, and it means danger. You made it lyrium red just because of that. It was not a decision made with artistic concerns or concerns related to the plot. You did not even try to find a more creative way in your narrative. It was a simple visual message. Then you get questions like OP asks. So you invent a reason for red lyrium. Just stating the facts here, take it as what it is. For honestly I am taking your game as it is. A commercial product with no real artistic value.

Modifié par Ksandor, 14 avril 2011 - 10:27 .


#21
WhiteKnyght

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ishmaeltheforsaken wrote...

Anyone else think Mr. Gaider routinely searches the forums for the word "Gaider"? He replies so quickly, and in the exact places he's needed. He's like a superhero.


lol Super-Gaider

#22
EmperorSahlertz

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Isn't much of the Lyrium we find for crafting red aswell?


Ksandor wrote...

David Gaider wrote...

Koyasha wrote...
If at all possible, it'd be nice to get some absolute confirmation on whether 'red lyrium' is actually intended to be distinct or not so we can direct our speculation correctly?


The lyrium in the Primeval Thaig is absolutely different from lyrium you would normally expect to see, yes.



Actually red usually used as the color of evil in games and other media. It is like red alert, blood red, and it means danger. You made it lyrium red just because of that. It was not a decision made with artistic concerns or concerns related to the plot. You did not even try to find a more creative way in your narrative. It was a simple visual message. Then you get questions like OP asks. So you invent a reason for red lyrium. Just stating the facts here, take it as what it is. For honestly I am taking your game as it is. A commercial product with no real artistic value.

..... ooookay... Good for you. Moving on...

Modifié par EmperorSahlertz, 14 avril 2011 - 11:40 .


#23
Blacklash93

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David Gaider wrote...

Koyasha wrote...
If at all possible, it'd be nice to get some absolute confirmation on whether 'red lyrium' is actually intended to be distinct or not so we can direct our speculation correctly?


The lyrium in the Primeval Thaig is absolutely different from lyrium you would normally expect to see, yes.

Is it the same as the corrupted lyrium resource?

#24
Girl on a Rock

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Koyasha wrote...

Also, remember lyrium in the fade isn't real lyrium - it's a spirit's mimicry of a dreamer's memory or imagination of what lyrium is.  We don't actually know what real lyrium is, other than the properties it has, and the only definite connection to the fade it has is that correctly processed lyrium enables mages to enter the fade.  Justice commented in Awakenings on the vast difference between real lyrium and the mimicry that is created by spirits in the Fade.  Lyrium and fade spirits are not necessarily connected in any way at all.  And the hunger demon in the primeval thaig didn't seem to consider the lyrium surrounding it anything special, beyond the fact that the profane consumed it.


There is that point - though this seems to be generally acknowledged as gameplay > lore - in DA:O when you fight all the golems and Branka during the Orzammar quest, and you encounter "real" lyrium that is that cyan color, and that does heal you. Granted, that doesn't necessarily tell us what it is, but it is an encounter with "real" lyrium.

As far as lyrium and a possible connection to fade spirits, it's true that we never see fade spirits acknowledging lyrium in any particular way, lyrium seems to have a strong connection to the fade itself. It can be used to transport a non-mage to the Fade, and I'm sure it's not a coincidence that a place with all this strange red lyrium is underneath a place where the Veil is perilously thin. I'm not sure what all this means. I'm kind of intrigued by the idea that the red lyrium is "infected" with the spirit(s) of the Old Gods or even demons, but I'm equally interested in the idea that the red lyrium is a cray cray amplifier, so that the specific effects/flavor of crazy is largely dependent on the personality/mentality of the individual it's exposed to at the time. Though those two things aren't necessarily mutually exclusive.

#25
nightscrawl

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ColdEnd wrote...

Lyrium is formed when mana crystalizes. The blue lyrium is Support Lyrium so it can have several beneficial effects. The idol was made out of yellow and red lyrium. This is Command and Summon Lyrium combined.

For more information about the types and effects of different color lyrium; and what lyrium does when placed into a "rune slot" on a weapon... (see here)

For ease of reading please replace the following words...

  • Lyrium = Materia
  • Mana = Mako
  • Materia Slot = Rune Slot
Hope this helps clarify.


I don't think it's really fair or accurate to use supplemental material from another game universe to explain something. True, all designers for different media are inspired/influenced by things they grew up with or previous material, but your post basically suggests they copied the lyrium from Final Fantasy.

You are also wrong about mana in relation to lyrium. According to the Origins Codex Mana and the Use of Magic, mana is "a measurement of one's ability to draw power from the Fade..." therefore it is abstract and not a real thing that can ever be held, or crystalized. Mages may use lyrium in order to bolster their mana, that is, to increase their ability to draw power from the fade, the Codex for lyrium supports this as well.