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[Halo Quea]

Elessie wrote...

Halo Quea wrote...

It seems to have an immediate effect on Dwarves, Bartrand and Varric are directly under it's influence within minutes of being in close proximity to it. Might also explain what happened to the Dwarves in the primordial thiag.
 

So here's something I found super confusing.  Varric hears voices during Haunted, he gets quite uppity questioning the servant abou the relic, and doesn't seem at all like his usual laid-back self when trying to convince you that he should keep the relic shard.

But if you give it to him, he uses it to make Bianca more powerful and apparently suffers no ill effect?  Is Bianca just that leet or did I miss something?

Really?  He suffers no effects at all?   Now that was the motive behind my entire reasoning for not giving it to him. But now you're telling me that nothing happens?  That's kind of disappointing. 

[whykikyouwhy]

Elessie wrote...

So here's something I found super confusing.  Varric hears voices during Haunted, he gets quite uppity questioning the servant abou the relic, and doesn't seem at all like his usual laid-back self when trying to convince you that he should keep the relic shard.

But if you give it to him, he uses it to make Bianca more powerful and apparently suffers no ill effect?  Is Bianca just that leet or did I miss something?

I didn't know about that possibility - I just took the chunk and gave it to Sandal.

Maybe by the end of Act III, Varric has yet to reach the point that Meredith was at, although he could be close. Although that would make his calm and coyness in his scenes with Cassandra all the lesslikely. So perhaps this is just a nice gap in the plot.

Of course, Haunted had to do with family, and maybe that's just one rather sore spot with Varric, hence the uncharacteristic testiness. Blood being thicker than water and all, it would still be quite the burden to want to get back at Bartrand, and clean up after him.

[Blacklash93]

I wonder if the red lyrium is a natural type, but only grows very far underground.

Nathaniel did say that Hawke and co. ventured further into the Deep Roads than anyone else.

[Foolsfolly]

Halo Quea wrote...

Really?  He suffers no effects at all?   Now that was the motive behind my entire reasoning for not giving it to him. But now you're telling me that nothing happens?  That's kind of disappointing. 

I hate to be this guy but...how could it have any ill affects? Varric's telling the story, if it's possible that he's mad then the whole story can be summed up thusly, "Durp."

It's just another in a long line of non-choices in the game.

[Blacklash93]

I let Varric keep it. I knew it wasn't going to kill him or make him irreversably crazy.

[Foolsfolly]

I always keep the thing.

+30 attack speed is far too good to allow Varric to hold it.

[Rifneno]

Foolsfolly wrote...

I always keep the thing.

+30 attack speed is far too good to allow Varric to hold it.

If you use Varric in your party a lot, it's pretty awesome either way.  3 rune slots on a weapon that has a much effect with runes as Bianca is a huge difference.

Anyway, as for why it didn't make Varric go bonkers I see two possibilities.  The first being that the "amplifier" theory is true: the idol isn't inherently evil and it only enhances something that's already there.  With Bartrand and Meredith, that something was very very bad.  With Varric, it might just be his sense of humor or something.  The second being that the idol is a living thing, and Hawke "killed" it in the battle with Meredith so it didn't have enough time to warp Varric.

[Heehaw]

The way I interpreted the idol was that it effectively made ones desires to come to reality. I've theorized it could be a Desire Demon or many were trapped inside, or they possessed it, or something else when the lyrium idol was crafted. The potency of the lyrium combined with it's amount gives the demons more power. The wielder's desires can be made into reality after the idol has enough influence over the person holding it. Bartrand got rid of it too quickly and it didn't have a chance to work its magic. Meredith on the other hand had a strong will, strong desires. She desired the power to defeat the champion, she desired aid because she was still failing. The idol made it reality. I assume the singing, and the sentience comes from the Desire Demons still trapped within.

[TEWR]

Heehaw wrote...

The way I interpreted the idol was that it effectively made ones desires to come to reality. I've theorized it could be a Desire Demon or many were trapped inside, or they possessed it, or something else when the lyrium idol was crafted. The potency of the lyrium combined with it's amount gives the demons more power. The wielder's desires can be made into reality after the idol has enough influence over the person holding it. Bartrand got rid of it too quickly and it didn't have a chance to work its magic. Meredith on the other hand had a strong will, strong desires. She desired the power to defeat the champion, she desired aid because she was still failing. The idol made it reality. I assume the singing, and the sentience comes from the Desire Demons still trapped within.

I have a different theory. The Old Gods.

Ruck says that Urthemiel sings to him, and the Mother says she can't hear the song anymore.

Varric and Bartrand both hear a song.

I think it has to do with the Old Gods.

[Ieolus]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

I have a different theory. The Old Gods.

Ruck says that Urthemiel sings to him, and the Mother says she can't hear the song anymore.

Varric and Bartrand both hear a song.

I think it has to do with the Old Gods.

That can be explained by the fact that "normal" lyrium also sings.... if you are sensitive enough to hear it.

[TEWR]

Ieolus wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

I have a different theory. The Old Gods.

Ruck says that Urthemiel sings to him, and the Mother says she can't hear the song anymore.

Varric and Bartrand both hear a song.

I think it has to do with the Old Gods.

That can be explained by the fact that "normal" lyrium also sings.... if you are sensitive enough to hear it.

normal lyrium only sings to denizens of the Fade though

[Foolsfolly]

Normal lyrium sings to dwarves too.

[TEWR]

Foolsfolly wrote...

Normal lyrium sings to dwarves too.

source please?

[Rifneno]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Foolsfolly wrote...

Normal lyrium sings to dwarves too.

source please?

DAO codex.  "For in its raw form, lyrium sings, and the discerning can hear the sound even through solid rock."

[TEWR]

Rifneno wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Foolsfolly wrote...

Normal lyrium sings to dwarves too.

source please?

DAO codex.  "For in its raw form, lyrium sings, and the discerning can hear the sound even through solid rock."

ok thanks. I'm still going to maintain my "Old Gods" theory for now, because Bartrand acts as if someone is also speaking to him, along with saying he can't hear the song anymore.

[Rifneno]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Rifneno wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Foolsfolly wrote...

Normal lyrium sings to dwarves too.

source please?

DAO codex.  "For in its raw form, lyrium sings, and the discerning can hear the sound even through solid rock."

ok thanks. I'm still going to maintain my "Old Gods" theory for now, because Bartrand acts as if someone is also speaking to him, along with saying he can't hear the song anymore.

I'm with you there.  Well, I don't know if it's the exact type of god they refer to as "old gods" in reference to archdemons but I definitely think it's some kind of deity.

[Loc'n'lol]

Maybe the old gods are like the sandworms od Dune : they actually make the lyrium ?

[DanteCousland]

Well there old gods, if Bioware is using the definiton of god correctly they would have made everything, lyrium included.

[Rifneno]

DanteCousland wrote...

Well there old gods, if Bioware is using the definiton of god correctly they would have made everything, lyrium included.

<Sten>  No.  </Sten

The concept of a god being omnipotent, omniscient, having existed since the dawn of time, having created everything, ect. is a fairly modern one.  Even the most powerful of gods in ancient religions, such as Zeus, didn't create everything.  Zeus even had parents.  And they had parents.  The entire idea of a pantheon directly conflicts with the "having made everything" notion.  There's multiple gods, how can they each have created everything?  In Christianity and similar religions, God is a name.  In ancient pantheons it's a title.

[Heehaw]

In many fantasy games, Dragon Age included, God is more used as a being of great power and less as a creator. The Maker is in effect what we call God in real life, Old Gods are more akin to greater demons.

As for the idol being sentient and singing, this certainly falls within my Desire Demon hypothesis. Given what little we know of the idol, and what we've seen of it, it seems it influences based upon desires. Bartrand desired wealth, Meredith power/influence. The lyrium itself could be the cause of singing, or the desire demons whispering may sound melodious.

But, the Old God theory is a good one. Perhaps rather than inhabiting a dragon, an Old God deigned to join with the lyrium idol knowing it could be a powerful, magical artifact. Or someone put it there.

Either way, the singing can be attributed to the lyrium itself. The powers can be attributed to desire demons, an Old God, or perhaps both in conjunction with the lyrium. I'm sure there are other possibilities as well.

But one question has been tickling me: When the idol is first discovered, Hawke easily lifts it with one hand, Varric throws it to Bartrand, and it seemed rather small in their hands anyway. How exactly did Meredith create a large 2 handed sword from this?

Another question: Did Meredith craft it herself? Did someone else? If someone else, why didn't they succumb to its influence? Or did he and Meredith killed him after the fact?

[Heehaw]

This: 

Rifneno wrote...

The
concept of a god being omnipotent, omniscient, having existed since the
dawn of time, having created everything, ect. is a fairly modern one.
 Even the most powerful of gods in ancient religions, such as Zeus,
didn't create everything.  Zeus even had parents.  And they had parents.
 The entire idea of a pantheon directly conflicts with the "having made
everything" notion.  There's multiple gods, how can they each have
created everything?  In Christianity and similar religions, God is a
name.  In ancient pantheons it's a title.

In many fantasy games, Dragon Age included, God is more used as a being of great power and less as a creator. The Maker is in effect what we call God in real life, Old Gods are more akin to greater demons, spirits, what-have-you.

As for the idol being sentient and singing, this certainly falls within my Desire Demon hypothesis. Given what little we know of the idol, and what we've seen of it, it seems it influences based upon desires. Bartrand desired wealth, Meredith power/influence. The lyrium itself could be the cause of singing, or the desire demons whispering may sound melodious.

But, the Old God theory is a good one. Perhaps rather than inhabiting a dragon, an Old God deigned to join with the lyrium idol knowing it could be a powerful, magical artifact. Or someone put it there.

Either way, the singing can be attributed to the lyrium itself. The powers can be attributed to desire demons, an Old God, or perhaps both in conjunction with the lyrium. I'm sure there are other possibilities as well.

But one question has been tickling me: When the idol is first discovered, Hawke easily lifts it with one hand, Varric throws it to Bartrand, and it seemed rather small in their hands anyway. How exactly did Meredith create a large 2 handed sword from this?

Another question: Did Meredith craft it herself? Did someone else? If someone else, why didn't they succumb to its influence? Or did he and Meredith killed him after the fact?

Edit:  Apparently I messed up with editing my other post with the quote and double-posted.  My apologies.

Modifié par Heehaw, 16 avril 2011 - 04:33 .

[Edge2177]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Heehaw wrote...

The way I interpreted the idol was that it effectively made ones desires to come to reality. I've theorized it could be a Desire Demon or many were trapped inside, or they possessed it, or something else when the lyrium idol was crafted. The potency of the lyrium combined with it's amount gives the demons more power. The wielder's desires can be made into reality after the idol has enough influence over the person holding it. Bartrand got rid of it too quickly and it didn't have a chance to work its magic. Meredith on the other hand had a strong will, strong desires. She desired the power to defeat the champion, she desired aid because she was still failing. The idol made it reality. I assume the singing, and the sentience comes from the Desire Demons still trapped within.

I have a different theory. The Old Gods.

Ruck says that Urthemiel sings to him, and the Mother says she can't hear the song anymore.

Varric and Bartrand both hear a song.

I think it has to do with the Old Gods.

+1

[tausra]

Cthulhu, Dagon and Nyarlathotep did it.

[Edge2177]

"The God who sleeps." - Archdemons? Cthulhu? Why not.

[nightscrawl]

Rifneno wrote...

In Christianity and similar religions, God is a name. In ancient pantheons it's a title.

Hit the nail on the head here .

If a comparison needs to be made between the Dragon Age universe and the real world, you could say that it takes place at a time when Judaism, Christianity and Islam co-existed alongside the pagan religions, before they began to dominate and spread their monothiestic religions.

So, you have the religion of the Chantry who worship the Maker, you have other people like elves who worship various gods, you have the Qunari who venerate Koslun and live by his writings, you have the dwarves who venerate their own ancestors, and then you have various isolated groups who worship the Old Gods.

If anything, the cycle of creation would have gone: Maker > world > Old Gods & lesser beings. Mortals began to worship the Old Gods and the Maker got pissed and supposedly imprisoned them underground where they now hang out waiting to be found by the darkspawn.

Back to the lyrium and various types... since there is lyrium called "corrupted lyrium," it might be the result of the same forces that corrupted the darkspawn originally. Perhaps the closer something is to a slumbering Old God underground, such as a Primeval Thaig, the more likely it is to become corrupt. Is there an Old God (potential Archdemon) in the vicinity of the Primeval Thaig? Who knows. However, the interest the Grey Wardens took in the place cannot be overlooked. It's something to consider at least.

Modifié par nightscrawl, 16 avril 2011 - 09:21 .