68 réponses à ce sujet

[Girl on a Rock]

So I'm on my third playthrough, but this is something I noticed in the second, when my mage was romancing Fenris. When they confront Danarius in Act III, my sweet ickle nicey Hawke mage picks the dialogue option "He's not a slave," which has her saying,

"Fenris doesn't belong to anyone," 

Danarius goes on to reply something like,

"Do I detect a note of jealousy? It's not surprising; the lad is rather skilled, isn't he?"

to which Fenris replies,

"Shut your mouth, Danarius!"

And shortly thereafter, the fight ensues.

But what are the implications here? It struck me particularly because of the romance element, but was there a sexual element to Fenris' slavery?

I'm not saying this to be salacious or grotty, I swear, but if that's the case - and we know that in general, these things haven't been totally spelled out in DA - then that would understandably deepen the level of Fenris' disgust and hatred for Danarius and mages in general. It kind of adds a whole other dimension. It's possible that I'm just reading into this, especially since when Hawke romances Fenris, he says he can't remember being with anyone else, but then again, sex or sexual acts that occur nonconsensually/by coercion/under duress don't count as "being with someone" - at least not in my book.

I think it makes total sense, honestly, and if it is the case, it kind of makes me even sadder for Fenris than I already was, which is pretty tough to do.

[UltiPup]

Been said and done sooo many times. But it really leans more towards his skills of phasing than anything. He says the same thing if you didn't romance Fenris. Danarius doesn't even know if you slept with him so why would he make an implication of his sexual skills?

[Trophonius]

I know there are compelling arguments against this, but I was under the impression that sexual abuse was involved too. Danarius calls him his 'pet' and his 'little wolf'. If Fenris' only purpose was to be his servant and bodyguard, why couldn've he chosen to call him something else? Of course, you could say that Danarius was just exerting power over his property and remarking Hawke's 'jealousy' on the fact that he has someone with competence/skill at his disposal, but I don't think it wholly renders a strictly professional master/slave relationship between them. Fenris' general discomposure towards physical affection might also be attributed to this kind of trauma.

[Girl on a Rock]

UltiPup wrote...

Been said and done sooo many times.

Well, I'm pretty new to the boards, so I apologize for that. I hadn't seen any other references when I scanned through, though.

But it really leans more towards his skills of phasing than anything. He says the same thing if you didn't romance Fenris. Danarius doesn't even know if you slept with him so why would he make an implication of his sexual skills?

To me, the use of the term "jealous" and the tone that Danarius uses implies more than just phasing - but it seems like you've been through this discussion before, so I won't make you go through it again.

[Girl on a Rock]

Trophonius wrote...

I know there are compelling arguments against this, but I was under the impression that sexual abuse was involved too. Danarius calls him his 'pet' and his 'little wolf'. If Fenris' only purpose was to be his servant and bodyguard, why couldn've he chosen to call him something else? Of course, you could say that Danarius was just exerting power over his property and remarking Hawke's 'jealousy' on the fact that he has someone with competence/skill at his disposal, but I don't think it wholly renders a strictly professional master/slave relationship between them. Fenris' general discomposure towards physical affection might also be attributed to this kind of trauma.

I agree -  I also feel that the fact that Fenris hasn't had any intimate physical relationships since the lyrium tattoos and the intensity of his tone toward Danarius are telling, too. I mean, that's all inference, and I'm sure it could be argued that Fenris just really hates Danarius, which is certainly a possibility. But the ferocity with which Fenris told him to shut up when Danarius made that comment seemed pretty heavily weighted.

[Addai]

We've discussed it on the Fenris thread. He hasn't had any intimate relationships since his escape, but says this is because he was on the run and couldn't trust anyone. He has no inhibition towards Isabela.

It's ambiguous, probably on purpose. I didn't get that vibe from the quest. Not to say it couldn't have happened.

[UltiPup]

Girl on a Rock wrote...

UltiPup wrote...

Been said and done sooo many times.

Well, I'm pretty new to the boards, so I apologize for that. I hadn't seen any other references when I scanned through, though.

But it really leans more towards his skills of phasing than anything. He says the same thing if you didn't romance Fenris. Danarius doesn't even know if you slept with him so why would he make an implication of his sexual skills?

To me, the use of the term "jealous" and the tone that Danarius uses implies more than just phasing - but it seems like you've been through this discussion before, so I won't make you go through it again.

He uses "jealous" because he still thinks he owns Fenris. He is so arrogant that he thinks everyone would want a slave like Fenris, that Hawke was using him as a slave and that Hawke is envious that Danarius owns such an elf. Again, there is no reason for Danarius to imply sexual skills. You don't reveal you two had relations or something of the like to steer the conversation that way.

[MorningBird]

I honestly didn't get that vibe either. For one, when Isabela starts probing (lolz) Fenris about his previous duties as a slave, Fenris is quite adamant about his role being strictly as a bodyguard, and nothing more.

I suppose you could take this as denial, but honestly, I just got the impression that Danarius was a very... flamboyant character. xD

Modifié par MorningBird, 14 avril 2011 - 05:43 .

[DoNotIngest]

Well, you do know the whole fisting thing was Danarius' idea.

Dirty, dirty magister.

[brightblueink]

I think it's probably that the sort of dominance displayed in slavery could be seen as similar to the dominance usually exerted over someone who's sexually abused, so the same sort of words and tones tend to be used. I'm guessing it wasn't really intentional on the writer's parts to make it seem like Denarius abused his power over Fenris in that way.

That being said, when I got to the bit when Fenris said Hadriana "hounded my sleep" I definitely thought he'd been sexually abused by her at first. So you're not the only one that's taken some of the lines about his past that way.

[PoisonTheCity]

It's not Danarius' 'jealousy' line that makes me think this was entirely possible, it's a line you get if you take the 'we can negotiate' option. Danarius says something along the lines of "You weren't always like this, Fenris. There was a time when you held affection for me."

[wildannie]

I tend to think that there was some level of sexual abuse involved but I don't think that Fenris was being used as a 'sex slave'. Fenris' really shuts down that comment from Danarius, which suggests to me that he doesn't want anything else revealed.

I'm sure that it's intended to be vague, leaving it up to the player to interpret what happened.

[DragonRacer]

Girl on a Rock wrote...

So I'm on my third playthrough, but this is something I noticed in the second, when my mage was romancing Fenris. When they confront Danarius in Act III, my sweet ickle nicey Hawke mage picks the dialogue option "He's not a slave," which has her saying,

"Fenris doesn't belong to anyone," 

Danarius goes on to reply something like,

"Do I detect a note of jealousy? It's not surprising; the lad is rather skilled, isn't he?"

to which Fenris replies,

"Shut your mouth, Danarius!"

And shortly thereafter, the fight ensues.

But what are the implications here? It struck me particularly because of the romance element, but was there a sexual element to Fenris' slavery?

I'm not saying this to be salacious or grotty, I swear, but if that's the case - and we know that in general, these things haven't been totally spelled out in DA - then that would understandably deepen the level of Fenris' disgust and hatred for Danarius and mages in general. It kind of adds a whole other dimension. It's possible that I'm just reading into this, especially since when Hawke romances Fenris, he says he can't remember being with anyone else, but then again, sex or sexual acts that occur nonconsensually/by coercion/under duress don't count as "being with someone" - at least not in my book.

I think it makes total sense, honestly, and if it is the case, it kind of makes me even sadder for Fenris than I already was, which is pretty tough to do.

Wasn't just you. The way in which Danarius said it made my mind immediately go there as well. But there is nothing definitive. The game is good about leaving things ambiguous. Kind of like on Anders's "Dissent" quest... with Ser Alrik threatening to make the mage girl Tranquil. She begs him not to and says she'll do anything. He responds with something like, "Yes, once you're Tranquil, you will do anything I ask." That carries lots of potential implications, as "mundune" as she would be forced to shine his boots to... other, more horrific implications such as rape.

However, I do want to note that Danarius gives the line even if you AREN'T in a romance with Fenris. So, not sure how that affects your thoughts on it -- i.e. the line really was about Fenris's fighting prowess or Danarius assumed your Hawke was in a relationship due to you defending him.

It led to a funny player moment for me, though. Because my Hawke was in a relationship and totally loyal to Anders (and had never even flirted with Fenris and was about 75% in rival range with him), so when Danarius said that, I was like.... "Uh, what? I'm banging the possessed apostate, dude. Mr. Broody McBlackFeathers standing back there." LOL

[Knight of Dane]

You're all just dirty pervs

I never thought about this to be honest, Fenris is the only character i haven't fully romanced yet, but it could also make sense with hiswords after the smex scene.
"I started remembering words, faces.." something along those line.
Could be he also remembered something... Dirty...

[Masako52]

I got that vibe. To me, the sleazy way Danarius uses pet names for Fenris and says he's hit... it was so strong I wasn't sure if sexual abuse wasn't canon when I was playing that scene. The sense of molestation was really thick to me, plus with Fenris's "shut your mouth" - like he was ashamed more than just angry.

But, well, it's ambiguous. It's not "canon" in the sense that it's not clearly present in the game. Still, I can't help but wonder if the creators didn't acknowledge that element at least so fans would wonder about it.

[Apirka]

Oh, you dirty minds.

When I heard this line from Danarius the very first time, I didn't get that vibe either.. I think Danarius meant Fenris' powers and abilities. But, I understand where people see the whole sexually abused thing. You're all perverted. (joke)

[UltiPup]

PoisonTheCity wrote...

It's not Danarius' 'jealousy' line that makes me think this was entirely possible, it's a line you get if you take the 'we can negotiate' option. Danarius says something along the lines of "You weren't always like this, Fenris. There was a time when you held affection for me."

Respect? Pride? Affection isn't always sexual. Everyone here has got a dirty mind D:

[ThatDancingTurian]

I find it weird how in spite of Fenris outright stating that nothing like that ever happened to Isabela and telling Hawke that he's never been with anyone, people still want to assume he was sexually abused.

Fenris is incredibly open and honest about his past. I think if that were the case he would have told Hawke. I don't think there's anything ambiguous about it, he responded to those questions with a definite no. His tone didn't even sound like a shameful denial, simply that he was stating a fact. He was a bodyguard. End of story.

Danarius is a total creeper, but I doubt he'd risk damaging his prized fighter when he's probably got a dozen other slaves for that intended purpose.

[ejoslin]

I think it's very likely sex was one of Fenris' duties -- there is more than one reference in the game to how depraved the magisters are. There's also the line where Fenris says that with Hawke it may be different, and I thought that was a comparison to sex being wanted as opposed to being something that was unpleasant due to his aversion to being touched.

But different people take those conversations quite differently as well. It's not really something to argue over as there is nothing outright stated so the conversations can be interpreted as people see fit. (I'm asking PLEASE not to start the born-again virgin argument here, I get that point of view, but I do not agree with it).

Edit: Again, the "have you never" conversation is NOT that cut and dried.  Even the phrase, "have you never..." "are you saying what I think you are," are obviously open to interpretation.  If they weren't, there wouldn't be this argument.

Modifié par ejoslin, 14 avril 2011 - 09:56 .

[Shacary]

I think about slavery in the distant past, and I cannot put a limit on the atrocities that folks do to another when they are completely bound beneath them. I do think sexual/physical and menatl abuse would only be the merest beginnings. Again I reference the historical notes about this. the fact that Fenris wa s " powerful" did not mean he ever Believed he could retaliate and remain alive. the slow recognization of beign chainless wasnt there then, add to that the fact that his Memories only started after the lyrium infusion and he was also helpless to KNOW any other life or person whom might help ...
Ya humans all over the world are cruel, especially when they feel they are empowered to take what is thier due without repercussions . ALso add to the fact that elves were lower life forms to those dudes as well as slaves. I mean kick the dog has new meaning. no matter how valuable, its just a tool/pet/toy to do with what they wish.

[Funny_chan]

I completely agree with the OP. In my first playthrough I also romanced Fenris with my female mage character and got the same impression.
IMHO, at some point Danarius and Fenris had a sexual relationship, I just have no idea if it was consensual or not. Like poisonthecity said before me, there is a possible conversation in which Danarius states that there was a time Fenris held affection towards him.
Also, after having sex with Hawke Fenris states that the act "brought back unpleasant memories", I know I may be overthinking, but...

[Emperor Iaius I]

You people have such disturbing minds, I swear. How does sexual abuse immediately leap to mind?

PoisonTheCity wrote...

It's not Danarius' 'jealousy' line that makes me think this was entirely possible, it's a line you get if you take the 'we can negotiate' option. Danarius says something along the lines of "You weren't always like this, Fenris. There was a time when you held affection for me."

Yeah, because there was a time where he competed for the lyrium runes. There was also a time before he was with those rebels on Seheron. That's what Danarius is talking about. Why on earth would he care about Fenris's affection if he were sexually abusive?

Trophonius wrote...

I know there are compelling arguments against this, but I was under the impression that sexual abuse was involved too. Danarius calls him his 'pet' and his 'little wolf'. If Fenris' only purpose was to be his servant and bodyguard, why couldn've he chosen to call him something else? Of course, you could say that Danarius was just exerting power over his property and remarking Hawke's 'jealousy' on the fact that he has someone with competence/skill at his disposal, but I don't think it wholly renders a strictly professional master/slave relationship between them. Fenris' general discomposure towards physical affection might also be attributed to this kind of trauma.

?

What, a master wouldn't marginalize and/or denigrate a slave? Or rather, demeaning nicknames are necessarily indicative of abuse? 

If you think it gives his character more depth or makes it more interesting, then do as you like, but I don't think the lines are ambiguous at all. I think the meaning is clear, but there's potential to read them differently if you wanted to: but that's not the same as ambiguity.

I mean, good grief.

[Masako52]

Aris Ravenstar wrote...

I find it weird how in spite of Fenris outright stating that nothing like that ever happened to Isabela and telling Hawke that he's never been with anyone, people still want to assume he was sexually abused.

Fenris is incredibly open and honest about his past. I think if that were the case he would have told Hawke. I don't think there's anything ambiguous about it, he responded to those questions with a definite no. His tone didn't even sound like a shameful denial, simply that he was stating a fact. He was a bodyguard. End of story.

Danarius is a total creeper, but I doubt he'd risk damaging his prized fighter when he's probably got a dozen other slaves for that intended purpose.

Fenris never "outright stated" to Isabela that nothing like that had happened. In fact, he doesn't answer the question - he averts it ("Did you glisten for him?", "I was his bodyguard.."). To me, the conversation with Isabela is interesting because it is indicative that magisters sexually abusing their slaves is common. Bioware didn't have to put that little suggestion in the game, but they did.  As far as telling Hawke he had never been with anyone, he implies that he's never had a lover before ("when would I have time to do that"). Which makes his line after you've had sex with Hawke, "I thought with you it would be different..." implying that he HAS done it before and it was not good at all.

Being open and honest is not the same as telling the story. For a second, let's assume that Fenris was sexually abused by Danarius. I do not believe it would be in Fenris's personality to admit something like that openly, it would certainly take a lot of trust. Fenris does say he was humiliated and other things that could mean, well, anything. At any rate, it's unlikely that even Bioware would step so far as to making something like that canon - male sexually abused slaves is, well, a really gutsy thing to do. Plus, it would lead to the insinuation that Fenris "is gay because he was sexually abused" which is obviously offensive.

But not making it blatant canon is not the same as the creators didn't consider that aspect when they wrote Fenris. At any rate, Fenris not being sexually molested isn't canon, neither is it having happened. The bottom line is that it's an unanswered question that you can ask if you want to ask. For a lot of people, it wouldn't occur to them to ask, and that's fine. Part of my job in real life is working with rape victims, so for me it's an interesting issue - not because I think it's "sexy", but because I think adds a level to Fenris's story that fits into what we already know about him. Plus it makes me hate Danarius more, and respect Fenris more for being as strong as he is.

[Shacary]

^WSS totally.

[Asdara]

The opinions seem divided at a particular point, little surprising.

I got that vibe, but as soon as I picked it up it passed into the fury of the fight, so they did a good job making that really questionable.

And... I don't care how many times anyone tells someone else walking around the streets that they've done this or not done that - Fenris isn't THAT open about what happened to him in slavery. He's open about examples that he knows will shock people, but he pulls them out on his own - usually while railing against mages. He doesn't talk about his lyrium lines, he doesn't talk about his old daily life after them, he throws out shocking examples from time to time that don't involve him, they were things he witnessed most of the time.