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So... is it just me, or was Fenris' time with Danarius worse than we thought? (possible SPOILERS)


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#26
The 13th Black Cat

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I got that vibe when I first saw that scene too, playing as a male rogue Hawke who was romancing Fen. Admittedly, it helps that I already thought Danarius was a creeper due to his little pet names for Fenris...something about the way he/Fenris says them makes them seem like more than just the typical sort of belittling thing you'd call a slave, at least to me. And when Danarius mentions that Fenris once held affection for him (and I didn't see that scene until just recently)...it just doesn't sound like it could mean respect or pride like someone suggested. In fact, why wouldn't he USE those words, if that's what he meant? There's a big difference in the implications and connotations of the words "affection" and "respect".

However, I'll fully admit that Fen's conversation with Isabela makes it VERY ambiguous--you'd think he'd react more strongly--but, on the other hand, I can see why he might not: if he WAS abused sexually, then it would be a normal fact of his life, and possibly not something he'd react to as strongly as he would if he could remember life before his markings. And he did steer the conversation away from it rather quickly, once Isabela outright asked if he "glistened" for Danarius, along with not really answering. Maybe because Fenris is not exactly known for being able to control his outbursts, and he didn't want to trigger one?

As for why Danarius would even mention something like that when you're confronting him, I suspect it might be for the same reason he calls him "my little Fenris"--to make Fenris uncomfortable. It doesn't really matter that he's talking to Hawke at the time, who may or may not be in a relationship with Fen; he's saying it because Fenris is there and he can't NOT hear it, and it obviously bothers him. Anyway, if he was using Fenris for sex, why wouldn't he assume Hawke might be doing the same? He does, after all, say "so this is your new master, then".

So, I think Fenris was PRIMARILY a bodyguard, but not ONLY a bodyguard--and before he got his markings, when he was just your average elf slave, who KNEW what he primarily was to Danarius...

that's my $.02 anyway. :P

#27
PoisonTheCity

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Emperor Iaius I wrote...

Yeah, because there was a time where he competed for the lyrium runes. There was also a time before he was with those rebels on Seheron. That's what Danarius is talking about. Why on earth would he care about Fenris's affection if he were sexually abusive?


It could be interpreted either way, given the creeper voice the guy used. I just don't see a slave being affectionate towards a master like Danarius if it hadn't been ordered, and I don't see a man like Danarius ordering affection in terms of 'be nice to me'. The way he used it seemed more like a mocking euphemism to me, but as I said, it is open to interpretation.

The entire matter is open to interpretation until a writer says 'it was written this way'. All I said was, given the circumstances and what we know, it is entirely possible.

#28
Annie_Dear

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I honestly think his time with Danarius went something like this:

Posted Image

...okay, I'm joking.

#29
ihearthanekrios

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Isn't there also a mention of templars raping mages by Anders at some point in the game whilst they are walking through the streets? I think that there is an underlying theme in the game and is meant to be subtle.

#30
Masako52

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ihearthanekrios wrote...

Isn't there also a mention of templars raping mages by Anders at some point in the game whilst they are walking through the streets? I think that there is an underlying theme in the game and is meant to be subtle.


Yes! I forget the exact quote, but Anders mentions that the templars rape mages (but he was "lucky" - meaning he probably hadn't been raped himself?) Then there's the scene in Act 2 I believe, where you're saving a mage in the cave from Templars who are trying to make her Tranquil - she's begging them and saying she'll do anything, and they say "Yes, you'll do ANYTHING we say once you're Tranquil.." I also got major rape vibes there, especially considering the illustration at hand - a girl begging on her hands and knees and men taking pleasure out of dominating her.

Which leads to the question if rape as a tool to control oppressed people isn't absolutely an underlying, subtle theme in the game. Well, Bioware hasn't shied away from bringing up rape before - in DAO, there were a lot more blatant cases. Still, it's a touchy subject and making it too in-your-face would yield a lot of criticism, and to be honest the subtle tones I feel are in DA2 are almost more powerful because they're ambiguous. I play it and I'm bombarded with this question, "did that happen?! am I just imagining things, or did that happen?!"

#31
The Baconer

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Danarius uses female walking and idle animations. I would say yes, to the OP.

#32
Sherbet Lemon

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The Baconer wrote...

Danarius uses female walking and idle animations. I would say yes, to the OP.


I'm sorry...but what?  What does that have to do with anything?

Danarius is meant to be seen as cultured, civilized and disarmingly polite.  His characterization comes across as ironic.  I don't even want to know what you're getting at...

#33
Ryzaki

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The Baconer wrote...

Danarius uses female walking and idle animations. I would say yes, to the OP.


Ugh that was immenesely irritaing to me. Why the needless feminization? Was just unnecessary to me. 

I like my bad guys well...manly. Willing to get their hands dirty. Danarius was a punk. 

Which is a shame because I was looking forward to meeting him. I thought he'd be the manipulative magnficient bastard type. Instead I got...that. 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 15 avril 2011 - 03:10 .


#34
The Baconer

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Village Idiot wrote...
Danarius is meant to be seen as cultured, civilized and disarmingly polite. 


And only female body language can convey this? How sexcist of you.

#35
Sherbet Lemon

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The Baconer wrote...

Village Idiot wrote...
Danarius is meant to be seen as cultured, civilized and disarmingly polite. 


And only female body language can convey this? How sexcist of you.


If that's really what you were able to intimate from that statement, then you're welcome to think that.  I shouldn't have even been baited by your previous comment as that was very foolish of me.  It won't happen again.  Think what you want.

#36
The Baconer

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Village Idiot wrote...
I shouldn't have even been baited by your previous comment as that was very foolish of me.  It won't happen again. 


It happens to the best of us.

#37
The Cannibal Factory

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ihearthanekrios wrote...

Isn't there also a mention of templars raping mages by Anders at some point in the game whilst they are walking through the streets? I think that there is an underlying theme in the game and is meant to be subtle.


I only got this in one playthrough (I think, unless I accidently skipped through the dialogue too far) but there is the bit where that Mage boy, who refuses to kill your kidnapped brother/sister/LI on Grace's orders, says something like "this Circle is much worse than [the one they escaped from] - the Templars lock us up in our rooms. They make us do things."

Definitely the most unambiguous reference in the game. There are plenty of hints dropped in though.

Wrenching back onto topic here, I have to admit I fully went :blink::crying: when Danarius taunted Fenris - I immediately jumped to the sexual mischief conclusion. Possibly because I had already pondered it after Fenris freaked out post-smexings and said something about "starting to remember".

But having said that, I could be totally wrong about the whole thing. I guess it's meant to be a bit unclear.

#38
ihearthanekrios

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I had the feeling that there had been physical/sexual abuse of Fenris by his master. That was the impression I had even before reading other people's posts on this topic.

#39
Trophonius

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Emperor Iaius I wrote...

Trophonius wrote...

I know there are compelling arguments against this, but I was under the impression that sexual abuse was involved too. Danarius calls him his 'pet' and his 'little wolf'. If Fenris' only purpose was to be his servant and bodyguard, why couldn've he chosen to call him something else? Of course, you could say that Danarius was just exerting power over his property and remarking Hawke's 'jealousy' on the fact that he has someone with competence/skill at his disposal, but I don't think it wholly renders a strictly professional master/slave relationship between them. Fenris' general discomposure towards physical affection might also be attributed to this kind of trauma.


?

What, a master wouldn't marginalize and/or denigrate a slave? Or rather, demeaning nicknames are necessarily indicative of abuse? 

If you think it gives his character more depth or makes it more interesting, then do as you like, but I don't think the lines are ambiguous at all. I think the meaning is clear, but there's potential to read them differently if you wanted to: but that's not the same as ambiguity.

I mean, good grief.


Yes, because god forbid if someone even picks up subtext of sexual abuse, they're automatically considered perverted and sick. Why is it so wrong to speculate about the extent their relationship transcended? Reviling a slave by calling him a pet and emphasizing the word 'little' doesn't exactly remove the possibility of abuse either. There's a trace of possessiveness in Danarius' tone; in a sense that his ownership over Fenris encompasses all aspects of Fenris' life, which includes his sex life as well. Danarius' overall behavior by the way he practically leers at Fenris and proposes a more 'appropriate' reward is all very suggestive.

It's fine if you don't see anything there, but no concrete evidence exists that it never happened. Until then, sexual abuse is still up in the air for discussion.

#40
Emperor Iaius I

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A more appropriate reward is suggestive? Did you read the letter from him afterwards? He sends you some goodies from the Arcanist Hall, he's not offering sex.

It seems people are looking for something to be there. Like I said, it's possible to read those lines in the way you propose, but all things equal, I don't think that it's the likeliest interpretation. There's nothing to suggest that his attitude is anything different from that of a master over his slave: heck, the pet business was remarked upon by Fenris as soon as you get him into his part. He leashed Fenris to mock qunari custom towards their mages. Do you imply that qunari custom also involves sexual abuse of their mages? 

The principle of parsimony suggests the likeliest explanation is the best, and sexual abuse is a stretch when we already have explanations for all of the name calling, for the remark about his skills, and for the reward.

It's fine if you don't see anything there, but no concrete evidence exists that it never happened. Until then, sexual abuse is still up in the air for discussion

That's nice, but that's not at all what I said. You can discuss it all you want: I'm just saying it's more unlikely than likely, and therefore doesn't rise to the level of ambiguity (where two possibilities are equally plausible).

PoisonTheCity wrote...

Emperor Iaius I wrote...

Yeah, because there was a time where he competed for the lyrium runes. There was also a time before he was with those rebels on Seheron. That's what Danarius is talking about. Why on earth would he care about Fenris's affection if he were sexually abusive?


It could be interpreted either way, given the creeper voice the guy used. I just don't see a slave being affectionate towards a master like Danarius if it hadn't been ordered, and I don't see a man like Danarius ordering affection in terms of 'be nice to me'. The way he used it seemed more like a mocking euphemism to me, but as I said, it is open to interpretation.

The entire matter is open to interpretation until a writer says 'it was written this way'. All I said was, given the circumstances and what we know, it is entirely possible.


Stockholm syndrome. Or something less sinister, if you prefer. Slaves in antiquity internalized their social position and absorbed the constant negative reinforcement. It's hard for someone today to understand because we've had independence and personal self-worth drilled into us from the start, but remember that this wasn't always the case. In Tevinter, the existence of slaves is a fact of life: somebody born into that system wouldn't know any better. In such a situation, the slightest showing of appreciation from one's master would be grounds for immense gratitude, no matter how harsh the master already was.

It's a psychological thing.

Or, alternatively, we can look at situations in antiquity where a person's body slave was their closest friend and confidant. They were treated much better than other slaves (and indeed, domestic slaves were generally treated quite well) and though they were property, they were essentially considered part of the family. This relationship seems unlikely here, given that Danarius seems to enjoy putting him down, but it's worth mentioning as another example of where a slave would feel affection for a master.

While slaves were generally sexually available to their masters becaused they lacked the legal ability to withhold consent, that doesn't mean that this happened to all slaves or that this was the only thing that bound a master to his slave. Fenris was valuable, and it's possible Danarius did see him as one might see a beloved pet.

One loves a dog, after all, without having sexual relations with it. I really hope so, anyway.

Modifié par Emperor Iaius I, 15 avril 2011 - 07:14 .


#41
Addai

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Trophonius wrote...
Yes, because god forbid if someone even picks up subtext of sexual abuse, they're automatically considered perverted and sick. Why is it so wrong to speculate about the extent their relationship transcended? Reviling a slave by calling him a pet and emphasizing the word 'little' doesn't exactly remove the possibility of abuse either. There's a trace of possessiveness in Danarius' tone; in a sense that his ownership over Fenris encompasses all aspects of Fenris' life, which includes his sex life as well. Danarius' overall behavior by the way he practically leers at Fenris and proposes a more 'appropriate' reward is all very suggestive.

It's fine if you don't see anything there, but no concrete evidence exists that it never happened. Until then, sexual abuse is still up in the air for discussion.

It's fine if someone interpreted it that way and it's fine to discuss it, as part of his background.  Now if the kink meme picked it up, that would be sick.  And probably someone will.  Reminds me of his banter with Sebastian where he asks why everyone wants to know the lurid details of his time as a slave.

#42
brightblueink

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Re: the "memories" comment--I haven't played through Fenris' romance in-game yet, but I've seen youtube videos of the scene and I'm pretty sure that he's saying that the memories he lost before the lyrium tattoos came back in the middle of the act, not that the was having a flashback to trauma.

I don't think it's "sick" for people to see that sort of subtext in there, though. It doesn't necessarily mean people are getting off on it or anything. Sexual abuse hits closer-to-home than slavery for a lot of people these days, so maybe it's just easier for us to understand that sort of trauma than the trauma caused by slavery?

#43
Emperor Iaius I

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brightblueink wrote...
I don't think it's "sick" for people to see that sort of subtext in there, though. It doesn't necessarily mean people are getting off on it or anything. Sexual abuse hits closer-to-home than slavery for a lot of people these days, so maybe it's just easier for us to understand that sort of trauma than the trauma caused by slavery?


I didn't mean to imply people were "getting off on it"--it just seemed disturbing that the abuse angle was the first that came to mind. Combined with all the discussions of his sexual prowess and how emotionally intense he was, it just seemed like a disturbing sort of wishful thinking, as in "man, THIS would really make his character drama intense."

You may be right in that people are more familiar with sexual abuse and its associated trauma than something distant like slavery.

Modifié par Emperor Iaius I, 16 avril 2011 - 01:19 .


#44
Tinxa

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I think that line was just Danarius goading Fenris with whatever he could find.

In banter with Isabela Fenris says firmly he was just a body guard and seems only mildly annoyed when she goes on about body oil and such:) if she was on to something I expect his reaction to be more severe. I personally don't see anything like that happening to Fenris.

#45
Fruit of the Doom

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Mmmm... Fenris naked and lathered in oil...

EDIT:  In response to the OP's question, how would that be worse?  Sounds like fun... :D

Modifié par Fruit of the Doom, 16 avril 2011 - 02:59 .


#46
frustratemyself

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I got a bit of a vibe of abuse going on when Fenris first mentions that Danarious called him "his little wolf". Rape & sexual abuse is about domination & control of the victim so it would fit to a certain extent.

People will interpret things & add a particular subtext based on their own background & experiences no matter how much you role play the game. Doesn't mean we're all perves.

#47
Girl on a Rock

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First, sorry I haven't replied to this before now - I've had a crazy busy few days, but I have been reading the replies as I've been able! The discussion has been really interesting. I did want to say something about this, though:

Emperor Iaius I wrote...

I didn't mean to imply people were "getting off on it"--it just seemed disturbing that the abuse angle was the first that came to mind. Combined with all the discussions of his sexual prowess and how emotionally intense he was, it just seemed like a disturbing sort of wishful thinking, as in "man, THIS would really make his character drama intense."


But this is better than "getting off on it" how? 

I can't speak for anyone else, however, I think that there could have been sexual abuse based on what the game has put in front of me. This isn't because I'm a pervert, it's because historically, slavery has included sexual exploitation - not in every case, but I can't think of a culture in which slavery has existed where it wasn't considered acceptable behavior. His character drama is plenty intense, but sexual abuse would, in my opinion, more aptly explain some of the comments made surrounding/by Fenris, and also some of his attitudes. These comments and attitudes can, of course, be easily interpreted in other ways, but I don't understand why there should be such an aversion to allowing for the possbility that things are, in fact, ambiguous.

But I'm not going to try to argue the point - I honestly wanted to hear other people's thoughts. But I wanted to comment on this because you seem, Emperor, to really be casting judgment on people who are speculating about/arguing for the possibility that Fenris was sexually exploited by Danarius. This doesn't make sense to me, because Bioware, and Dragon Age in particular, has delved into some very dark places, and that includes a number of instances of heavily implied sexual abuse. I don't see why it's so far-fetched to consider Fenris' situation among them.

#48
Ryzaki

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I don't see it as sexual abuse. It would just be odd for him to romance a male mage in that case. (Especially in the rivalry path).

I think Danarius probably dehumanized Fenris a lot and Fenris took every scrap of affection he could and was a pet to Danarius.

The lad is rather skilled comment to me was more about Fenris' fighting prowess. 

Frankly I I'm glad it's ambigious because if it was directly stated romancing him with mage Hawke would strain my credibility. (Particulary a rivalrymance). It would look more like a odd return of his relationship with Danarius in some twisted way.  

Aversion to touch could be explained by physical abuse. (I can see Hardriana as the type to knock him around becausehe can't do anything to her and feeling power over the fact) 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 16 avril 2011 - 03:18 .


#49
cleosilver

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I got the impression that Dararius was definitely insinuating that he's used Fenris that way than they Hawke was doing so too. Whether this was just to get a reaction from Hawke or actually fact however I don't know.

#50
TripLight

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I just got the impression that Danarius was goading him, Fenris can't stand being referred as something less then a person. Danarius knows this, thus he struck at Fenris to hurt him emotionally.

I don't think he was sexually abused, physically and emotionally, oh yes.

If you really want to know just PM Gaider, I am sure he would shed light on the subject...or give another ambigously cryptic explanation, it can't hurt.