119 réponses à ce sujet

[didymos1120]

Ye Olde Gamer wrote...

I know the Council is held in very low regard these days, but surely even they would have noticed another functional mass relay within the Citadel's system.  Objects in space are supposed to be easy to spot (in the ME universe, at least).

OK, one, there a lot of relays in the immediate vicinity of the Citadel.  See the Codex.  Two, I'm talking about Sovvy going to an unknown secondary relay in some random system that is within range of the one used for the attack and jumping in from there.  The Council couldn't do a thing about that.  There's no way for them to know whether any such relays exist unless they go out and discover them.   Given that most of the galaxy is unexplored by current species, odds are pretty damn high that many such relays are out there.  Sovereign on the other hand, being a Reaper, would know exactly where they are. 

Modifié par didymos1120, 17 avril 2011 - 07:53 .

[Black Howling]

didymos1120 wrote...

Ye Olde Gamer wrote...

ME1 implies that it is possible to guard Relays (granted, the guards seem to be AWOL when Sovereign actually shows up), so presumably drift isn't that big a deal on a strategic scale.

Or, they were just guarding the relays they knew about.  Sovereign was a Reaper, and didn't have to rely on known relays. There's no telling how many relays are out there in range in of any given known relay.

Which brings into question those 'forbiden' Relays the councel hasn't activated. I remember reading in the Codex that there are Relays that remain dormant because their counter parts haven't been located and could lead to a possble hostile race. Well, shouldn't the Reapers have access to these unknown Relays if that's the case? If they still want their suprise attack that would be the best option, though it might take them longer to get to them.

Also, does anyone sometimes get the feeling Sovereign was lying about the Reapers being the creators of the Mass Relays?

[SalsaDMA]

Il Divo wrote...

SalsaDMA wrote...

Reapers are just big versions of Geth, if you look at it basicly. Ignore the 'cycle of doom' and all that, and you end up with "like Geth, just bigger". Ofc, the problem in this case can be tied to the writers portrayal of Shepard as a freaking nutcase whenever he needs to discuss the reapers (which is really out of place with his mental and social capabilities practically everywhere else when he needs it).

Except your comparison only works if all the details are completely ignored. All the questions the Turian Councilor raised at the start of Mass Effect pretty much explains why they don't believe in Reapers.

Where did they go? Why didn't we find any trace of their existence? Remember, there are actual myths of the Reapers' existence, which makes Shepard's theory much more difficult to swallow. Any 'truth' must have the ability to be validated, which is pretty much impossible in the case of the Reapers.

No. Vampires and Geth are extremely different. Reapers and Geth, however, are related. Geth are humansized AI's. Reapers are shipsized AI's. Considering the citadel races are able to make AI's and tie them into a ship already (but usually don't dare, cause of the quarians experience with the Geth) why are they so adamant to refuse to acknowledge that some other race in the universe which they haven't met yet might have done this exact thing, and that it backfired on them, leaving a race of shipsized AI's to roam around?

Because they have never seen any evidence of this machine race; that's the point of the Vampire comparison. I will not believe in Vampires until I'm shown evidence of their existence. The same goes for Reapers.

The comparison to the Geth only works if we ignore the Reapers'

1) history
2) motivations
3) technology

In all these things, Reapers have a much higher burden of proof than proving another race exists; you're also proving that the existence of every organic species in the galaxy is a lie. You're pretty much telling someone that they're inserted into the Matrix.

Again, this is only because Shepard is portrayed as a complete fruitcake whenever he talks about the reapers.

Details doesn't matter in this regard. Geth and Reapers are both AI's. It doesn't matter that one uses one type of networking to get its intelligence while the other uses another type of networking to get its intelligence. Let the geth make a shipsized 'Geth' with multiinterconnecting programs (basicly a very big version of Legion) and to the average viewer without intimate knowledge of the inner workings of them, a reaper and shipsezed Geth would be the same: A shipsized AI.

Add that Shepard keeps acting like a madman when talking about the reapers, instead of pulling out his diplomatic and social skills to give credible easier to swallow info and things would be different. Only reason Reapers are ignored as a possibility is because the writers hamfisted slap the characters into it.

AI's of various sizes is already 'now' a credible thing, and have been for a while in the ME universe. A large part of the galaxy, let alone the universe, is unexplored by the citadel races. Dorment relays are specifically not persued because the citadel races are afraid of encountering a new hostile species ala the Rachnii incident.

Add the facts, and it should be clear that encountering another 'species' of sentient machines is a very real possibility. Yet the council and everyone keep denying it as if it is impossible. Literally acting like ostriches and just stuffing their heads in the ground. For a council that is supposed to be as savy and intelligent as the council is, they sure are naive.

[Il Divo]

SalsaDMA wrote...

Again, this is only because Shepard is portrayed as a complete fruitcake whenever he talks about the reapers.

Or someone who has been severely affected by the Prothean cipher.

Details doesn't matter in this regard. Geth and Reapers are both AI's. It doesn't matter that one uses one type of networking to get its intelligence while the other uses another type of networking to get its intelligence. Let the geth make a shipsized 'Geth' with multiinterconnecting programs (basicly a very big version of Legion) and to the average viewer without intimate knowledge of the inner workings of them, a reaper and shipsezed Geth would be the same: A shipsized AI.
 

It has nothing to do with networking. AI is believable; it's been proven to exist, on a large scale. Reapers are not simply networking. For Shepard to prove that Reapers exist, he has to explain to the Council why they should be preparing for attack from a race of machines no one has encountered before.

Ex: 

No one believed in the Rachni, until they were discovered.
Humans did not believe in the Protheans/Turians, until they were discovered.

To prove something exists, it must have the ability to be validated, which no one aside from Shepard has.

Add that Shepard keeps acting like a madman when talking about the reapers, instead of pulling out his diplomatic and social skills to give credible easier to swallow info and things would be different. Only reason Reapers are ignored as a possibility is because the writers hamfisted slap the characters into it.

What diplomatic and social skills are those?

Shepard: Reapers are advanced AI.
Council: Okay, so where are they?
Shepard: Uhh, in Dark Space, which has never been explored.
Council: Okay, so how exactly do they reach us?
Shepard: Well, you see, the Citadel is a giant mass relay which they use to ...
Council:

Reapers are intimately tied to their history. Reapers have myths associated with them, which we hear the Council dismiss in Mass Effect. Shepard has been playing the Reaper card since the start of Mass Effect.

AI's of various sizes is already 'now' a credible thing, and have been for a while in the ME universe. A large part of the galaxy, let alone the universe, is unexplored by the citadel races. Dorment relays are specifically not persued because the citadel races are afraid of encountering a new hostile species ala the Rachnii incident.

Again, you keep appealing to the argument from ignorance without understanding what it is. Because something 'can' exist does not mean something does exist.
 
For all I know, there could be a species of three legged cats which are undiscovered living on Mars. Until I have encountered this species, or scientific experts confirm their existence, I will assume this new cat race does not exist.

Sentient space ships could exist in the Mass Effect universe, but until someone has encountered them (which so far is only Shepard), we assume that they aren't real. That is called 'burden of proof'.

Add the facts, and it should be clear that encountering another 'species' of sentient machines is a very real possibility. Yet the council and everyone keep denying it as if it is impossible. Literally acting like ostriches and just stuffing their heads in the ground. For a council that is supposed to be as savy and intelligent as the council is, they sure are naive.

It is not naivety to refuse to accept a single man's testimony, without validation.

Me: Cats exist.
Other person: Prove it.
[I point to a cat]
Other person: Oh, okay.

This is not possible with Reapers, in any form.

[SalsaDMA]

Geth exists. AI's exists. AI's can even be moved to ships from a non ship placement by evidence of ME1 where you stumble upon the AI that was funneling cash so it could get off the citadel eventually.

AI's also exists in various black ops research facilities to be studied in safe enviroments.

It's not anymore ludicrous to believe in other living AI's than it is to believe in other living races, and the citadel believe enough in those to shut down travels through unexplored relays.

Shepards diplomatic and social skills come to evidence in practical every other situation that is not about convincing the citadel of the reapers. You'd have had to be blind to the story and events throughout both games to even claim these don't exists.

Your problem is that you keep tying recognizing that other sentient machines is plausible for anyone in the ME universe, to naturally tie it with ancient myths and ramblings from madmen. This is because you tie it only to how the writers depict Shepard when he is adressing the council, instead of letting the facts speak for themselves.

The problem is writers forcing Shepard to act like a willynilly in this regard, and the council to act like naive ignorants refusing to acknowledge the reality of their world. They might as well say : "We know fish exists, but unless a fish from outside our known space pops up, we will absolutely refuse to even recognize the poossibility of fish existing outside the little part of the universe we know."

Same deal, fish instead of AI's. They have 'living' proof of AI's in the Geth, and are even actively hunting them down when they find them, yet they refuse to belive such a thing could exist elsewhere. This is tantamount to religious zeal in ignoring evidence and statistical possibilities they are displaying, and really unbelievable for an office that is dealing at ocasions precisely with figuring out how to deal with newly encountered species.

And your example at the end is rather easy:

Me: AI's exist.
Other person: Prove it.
[I point to a Geth]
Other person: Oh, okay.

[Inutaisho7996]

Gravbh wrote...

SalsaDMA wrote...

Mesina2 wrote...

you have low standards then.

No, it's not meant as an insult, but if you think Arrival is good I can only asume that you are easy to please plotwise from games.

Gotta love the opinion-as-fact crowd.

Gotta love the "can't say anything relevant to the topic, so let's just flame a random guy" crowd.

The level of irony in this post is amazing!

Modifié par Inutaisho7996, 18 avril 2011 - 05:18 .

[squee913]

SalsaDMA wrote...

Geth exists. AI's exists. AI's can even be moved to ships from a non ship placement by evidence of ME1 where you stumble upon the AI that was funneling cash so it could get off the citadel eventually.

This is evidence to us, but as far as we know, Shep and company are the only ones that are aware of this fact. They have no way to prove the incident even occurred. The news report said it was vandalism. It's fine to say AI can do this, but how do you prove it to someone else?

SalsaDMA wrote...
AI's also exists in various black ops research facilities to be studied in safe enviroments.

It's not anymore ludicrous to believe in other living AI's than it is to believe in other living races, and the citadel believe enough in those to shut down travels through unexplored relays.

Shepards diplomatic and social skills come to evidence in practical every other situation that is not about convincing the citadel of the reapers. You'd have had to be blind to the story and events throughout both games to even claim these don't exists.

That's just it. The council IS blind to most of the story and events in both games. They are not with Shepard, and Shepard has very little proof from these events. The council did not talk to Sovereign or vigil. They did not see the baby reaper, or the derlict reaper. All they have to go on is Shepard's word. Shepard's word that there is some gaint AI race that sits in dark space and wipes us out every 50,000 years. That is a hard pill to swallow.

SalsaDMA wrote...
Your problem is that you keep tying recognizing that other sentient machines is plausible for anyone in the ME universe, to naturally tie it with ancient myths and ramblings from madmen. This is because you tie it only to how the writers depict Shepard when he is adressing the council, instead of letting the facts speak for themselves.

What facts are those again? Point to facts that Shepard can show the council that he/she has not already tried to do. The council believes the remains of Sovereign are a geth ship. Vigil does not work anymore, and they have dismissed Saren's words for lies to mislead Shepard. Even if they had pictures form the collector ship, that does not show the collectors are connected to the reapers. The Derelict Reaper fell into the gas giant, and would probably have been dismissed as another geth ship anyway. I suppose EDI now has readouts that might have evidence but she would not be able to share any of this with the council until after she was away from Cerberus control after ME2. So what facts are there to speak for themselves?

SalsaDMA wrote...
The problem is writers forcing Shepard to act like a willynilly in this regard, and the council to act like naive ignorants refusing to acknowledge the reality of their world. They might as well say : "We know fish exists, but unless a fish from outside our known space pops up, we will absolutely refuse to even recognize the poossibility of fish existing outside the little part of the universe we know."

Same deal, fish instead of AI's. They have 'living' proof of AI's in the Geth, and are even actively hunting them down when they find them, yet they refuse to belive such a thing could exist elsewhere. This is tantamount to religious zeal in ignoring evidence and statistical possibilities they are displaying, and really unbelievable for an office that is dealing at ocasions precisely with figuring out how to deal with newly encountered species.

And your example at the end is rather easy:

Me: AI's exist.
Other person: Prove it.
[I point to a Geth]
Other person: Oh, okay.

It's not a question of whether or not the Reapers CAN exist, but if there is any evidence to show they DO exist.
The point you are missing is this:

Me: AI's, that are far more powerful than we have ever imagined, sit in dark space and are coming to wipe all of us out every 50,000 years.

Other person: Prove it.

[I point to a Geth]

Other person: ummm... ok. I see an AI, but it is not more powerful than we ever imagined, it is not in dark space, and they are not trying to wipe everything out.

Me: But this proves that they COULD exist!

Other person: so... you want us to divert resources to prepare for some war and disrupt everyone's lives because you think Geth prove that there might possibly maybe be a more powerful version of them, and that they could perhaps want to wipe us all out?

Me: Are you saying that's impossible?

Other person: No... I suppose they COULD exist... but we have no reason to beleive they DO exist.

[aimlessgun]

All this debate over the provability of the Reapers

It would be difficult, and the council doesn't want to believe you. That's why it would have been a great objective for ME2! It's not something you can do quickly or easily: you need a game's worth to convince and unite the the galaxy.

And that's what I expected from ME2, and believe it would have been much better than the Collector side story: convincing and uniting the galaxy.

It's not just about gathering evidence (though much of the game could certainly have been doing that), but also about getting powerful political figures/interests on your side. Not necessarily with proof, but by doing favors for them, threatening them or blackmailing them, taking care of longstanding galactic conflicts that have been troubling them.

You aren't going to convince and unite the galaxy by waving around some proof. You're going to need to go through an arduous political and PR campaign, combined with evidence hunting and settling scores and making peace. Sigh...the game that could have been.

Modifié par aimlessgun, 18 avril 2011 - 06:55 .

[squee913]

aimlessgun wrote...

All this debate over the provability of the Reapers

It would be difficult, and the council doesn't want to believe you. That's why it would have been a great objective for ME2! It's not something you can do quickly or easily: you need a game's worth to convince and unite the the galaxy.

And that's what I expected from ME2, and believe it would have been much better than the Collector side story: convincing and uniting the galaxy.

It's not just about gathering evidence (though much of the game could certainly have been doing that), but also about getting powerful political figures/interests on your side. Not necessarily with proof, but by doing favors for them, threatening them or blackmailing them, taking care of longstanding galactic conflicts that have been troubling them.

You aren't going to convince and unite the galaxy by waving around some proof. You're going to need to go through an arduous political and PR campaign, combined with evidence hunting and settling scores and making peace. Sigh...the game that could have been.

I would not have been opposed to that. I think it would have been neat, but you would not have been able to spend as much time on getting to know your team. I think that could have a very big payoff in ME3, but we will just have to see.

By the way you banner is.... ummm... a little creepy....  Whats with the chocolate armor?

[aimlessgun]

I certainly hope the teambuilding pays off, but I very much suspect that ME2 was very self-contained, a deliberate homage to the Dirty Dozen. But there are some intruiging links moving forward, Legion most of all. Geth and humans unite to build our own future, a transcendant machine/organic sythesis that rejects the dark path of the Reapers!

As for chocolate armor, don't you think it needs to be in ME3? Along with chocolate covered LI's? You know you want it.

(it's based off a super hilarious/creepy shop from the Kaidan character thread where he was covered in chocolate and like...licking it off himself)

Modifié par aimlessgun, 18 avril 2011 - 07:00 .

[Lunatic LK47]

aimlessgun wrote...

All this debate over the provability of the Reapers

It would be difficult, and the council doesn't want to believe you. That's why it would have been a great objective for ME2! It's not something you can do quickly or easily: you need a game's worth to convince and unite the the galaxy.

And that's what I expected from ME2, and believe it would have been much better than the Collector side story: convincing and uniting the galaxy.

It's not just about gathering evidence (though much of the game could certainly have been doing that), but also about getting powerful political figures/interests on your side. Not necessarily with proof, but by doing favors for them, threatening them or blackmailing them, taking care of longstanding galactic conflicts that have been troubling them.

You aren't going to convince and unite the galaxy by waving around some proof. You're going to need to go through an arduous political and PR campaign, combined with evidence hunting and settling scores and making peace. Sigh...the game that could have been.

Problem is BioWare already wrote themselves into a corner in ME1. How the hell can we exactly make a 50 hour game dedicated to just looking for evidence on the Reapers? It would basically end up being Shenmue minus the action scenes. I'm pretty sure the Reapers were meticulous enough about hiding traces of their existence, especially since they covered up evidence of Pre-Prothean life not long until Liara only found what, less than a teaspoon of evidence before her recruitment?

[squee913]

aimlessgun wrote...

I certainly hope the teambuilding pays off, but I very much suspect that ME2 was very self-contained, a deliberate homage to the Dirty Dozen. But there are some intruiging links moving forward, Legion most of all. Geth and humans unite to build our own future, a transcendant machine/organic sythesis that rejects the dark path of the Reapers!

As for chocolate armor, don't you think it needs to be in ME3? Along with chocolate covered LI's? You know you want it.

(it's based off a super hilarious/creepy shop from the Kaidan character thread where he was covered in chocolate and like...licking it off himself)

I can't beleive I'm saying this... but yes... Yes I do think that needs to be in ME3. I think I need a shower.

[aimlessgun]

Lunatic LK47 wrote...

aimlessgun wrote...

All this debate over the provability of the Reapers

It would be difficult, and the council doesn't want to believe you. That's why it would have been a great objective for ME2! It's not something you can do quickly or easily: you need a game's worth to convince and unite the the galaxy.

And that's what I expected from ME2, and believe it would have been much better than the Collector side story: convincing and uniting the galaxy.

It's not just about gathering evidence (though much of the game could certainly have been doing that), but also about getting powerful political figures/interests on your side. Not necessarily with proof, but by doing favors for them, threatening them or blackmailing them, taking care of longstanding galactic conflicts that have been troubling them.

You aren't going to convince and unite the galaxy by waving around some proof. You're going to need to go through an arduous political and PR campaign, combined with evidence hunting and settling scores and making peace. Sigh...the game that could have been.

Problem is BioWare already wrote themselves into a corner in ME1. How the hell can we exactly make a 50 hour game dedicated to just looking for evidence on the Reapers? It would basically end up being Shenmue minus the action scenes. I'm pretty sure the Reapers were meticulous enough about hiding traces of their existence, especially since they covered up evidence of Pre-Prothean life not long until Liara only found what, less than a teaspoon of evidence before her recruitment?

As I said, it's not just about collecting evidence, it's about getting the major political players on your side, by settling the current galactic conflicts, doing their dirty work, or blackmailing/intimidating them or whatnot. Plenty of action to be had there.

As for evidence, the Collector base is evidence, Object Rho is evidence. The Derelict Reaper is evidence. There's also Ilos, which the Reapers didn't find. They clearly weren't able to sweep the whole galaxy. And the writers could easily write in a couple more things.

squee913 wrote...
[smilie]../../../images/forum/emoticons/andy.png[/smilie] I can't beleive I'm saying this... but yes... Yes I do think that needs to be in ME3. I think I need a shower.

A chocolate shower?

[CroGamer002]

^I'll never eat chocolate ever again in my life.

[Avalon Aurora]

Here is what I'd ask the council.

"If there are no reapers, what happened to the Protheans, and various other lost races we have archeological evidence of, and archeological evidence of them being wiped out?"

"Find me a living Prothean colony before you 'dismiss' the Reapers."

Also, one thing that annoys me Shepard didn't mention is, "So even if Soveriegn was a Geth ship, why aren't you worried that the Geth aren't producing a fleet of them behind the Perseus Veil?"

[squee913]

Avalon Aurora wrote...

Here is what I'd ask the council.

"If there are no reapers, what happened to the Protheans, and various other lost races we have archeological evidence of, and archeological evidence of them being wiped out?"

"Find me a living Prothean colony before you 'dismiss' the Reapers."

Also, one thing that annoys me Shepard didn't mention is, "So even if Soveriegn was a Geth ship, why aren't you worried that the Geth aren't producing a fleet of them behind the Perseus Veil?"

As far as I know, Liara is the only one who ever theorized that there were races before the Protheans that were also wiped out. If you asked the council that, they would say that they only have proof that the Protheans existed and that there are a lot of reasons that a race can die out. You would have to prove that the reapers did it. They do not have to prove that the Reapers didn't do it.

As for the second question, I like it! I would love to see how they answer it.

[JeffZero]

"When it comes to fleets of giant geth ships, Commander, you've already proven yourself quite capable of dealing with the geth so we have confidence our intervention won't be necessary." -Asari Councilor

"Impractical to worry over matters of speculation. The geth threat has subsided for now. Matters of greater importance must now be addressed." -Salarian Councilor

"Ah yes, 'geth'." -Turian Councilor

[JabbaDaHutt30]

Please change your topic title. This is not a thoughtful story analysis. It should be title "BioWare apologism" according to the OP.

Modifié par JabbaDaHutt30, 18 avril 2011 - 09:22 .

[squee913]

JabbaDaHutt30 wrote...

Please change your topic title. This is not a thoughtful story analysis. It should be title "BioWare apologism" according to the OP.

And you came to this conclusion how? How is it apologism if I say that I felt it had flaws and there were things that could have been done better? While you're at it, could you please let me know how this is not an analysis? Or are you saying that something is only an analysis if it agrees with your point of view?
 

[jbadm04]

JeffZero wrote...

"When it comes to fleets of giant geth ships, Commander, you've already proven yourself quite capable of dealing with the geth so we have confidence our intervention won't be necessary." -Asari Councilor

"Impractical to worry over matters of speculation. The geth threat has subsided for now. Matters of greater importance must now be addressed." -Salarian Councilor

"Ah yes, 'geth'." -Turian Councilor

Good one

[SalsaDMA]

JeffZero wrote...

"When it comes to fleets of giant geth ships, Commander, you've already proven yourself quite capable of dealing with the geth so we have confidence our intervention won't be necessary." -Asari Councilor

Shepard: "As I recall, we nearly lost the Citadel to one of these ships, and lost several of our finest ships as well in that attack. What kind of casualities do you expect to face with an entire fleet of them knocking on our doors?"

"Impractical to worry over matters of speculation. The geth threat has subsided for now. Matters of greater importance must now be addressed." -Salarian Councilor

Shepard: "Quite true. They are not attacking now. Attacking while building the fleet you want to attack with is quite.... difficult."

"Ah yes, 'geth'." -Turian Councilor

Shepard: "Yes Geth. The AI's the Quarians created and a certain Turian spectre allied with in order to attack the Citadel. Geth...."

[Il Divo]

SalsaDMA wrote...

Me: AI's exist.
Other person: Prove it.
[I point to a Geth]
Other person: Oh, okay.

I'm not going to bother with the rest.  This clearly demonstrates that you're missing my point. You're still operating under the argument from ignorance.

Potential for existence is not existence, once more.
 
The issue is not whether sentient space ships 'could' exist. This falls within the realms of possibility. But no one (Shepard and 2 party members aside) has ever encountered this 'Reaper', hence why they regard Shepard as insane. How is he supposed to explain where they are now, and why they plan on attacking? 

Try this:

Pretend that you are the only person in the world who has ever seen a dog and try to explain to someone that dogs exist by pointing to a cat. They'd think you were insane. Not because the idea of a 'dog' is necessarily insane, but because no one has encountered them.

Modifié par Il Divo, 18 avril 2011 - 09:36 .

[aimlessgun]

Il Divo wrote...

SalsaDMA wrote...

Me: AI's exist.
Other person: Prove it.
[I point to a Geth]
Other person: Oh, okay.

I'm not going to bother with the rest.  This clearly demonstrates that you're missing my point. You're still operating under the argument from ignorance.

More realistically:

Me: Reapers exist.
Powerful Political Figure: Prove it.
Me: Here's such and such evidence.
PPF: I'm not totally convinced.
Me: How about I take care of your longstanding XXXX problem and you support me anyways? Also, my friend the Shadow Broker dug up some interesting skeletons in your past.
PPF: Sounds like a deal.

Or maybe:
Powerful Arms Manufacturer Lobby: What can we do for you today?
Me: If you help me hype up this Reaper problem, demand for arms production will skyrocket. You will make out like bandits.
PAML: I'll call the politicians in our pocket immediately.

Throughout history, the factuality of a cause has often had no effect on it's support. You don't have to actually scientifically prove to everyone the Reaper exist to start preparing for the invasion.

Modifié par aimlessgun, 19 avril 2011 - 12:37 .

[SalsaDMA]

Your issue is still you elevate Reapers to something else besides what they are: AI's.

This is partly because of the writers pigeonholing Shepard into beinjg dumb as a brick when talking about them, instead of just describing them as 'a previously un-encountered hostile species of AI's the size of ships'. (This description only fits before the battle of the citadel, ofc. Afterwards he can just state that the Geth were allied with this other species and trying to aid them, given that they were both AI species and had a common goal in attempting to getting rid of a, for them, hostile force)

This description form the start of would have been alot more digestable to anyone instead of the "reapent! your doom is near!!!!" kinda thing that always get used when the talk falls on the reapers.

And as evidenced by another thread in the forum, evidence should exist aplenty, given lore implications of stuff the writers told themselves.

[squee913]

SalsaDMA wrote...

Your issue is still you elevate Reapers to something else besides what they are: AI's.

This is partly because of the writers pigeonholing Shepard into beinjg dumb as a brick when talking about them, instead of just describing them as 'a previously un-encountered hostile species of AI's the size of ships'. (This description only fits before the battle of the citadel, ofc. Afterwards he can just state that the Geth were allied with this other species and trying to aid them, given that they were both AI species and had a common goal in attempting to getting rid of a, for them, hostile force)

This description form the start of would have been alot more digestable to anyone instead of the "reapent! your doom is near!!!!" kinda thing that always get used when the talk falls on the reapers.

And as evidenced by another thread in the forum, evidence should exist aplenty, given lore implications of stuff the writers told themselves.

So you don't call them reaper, you just call them big AI... and then what? There is still no evidence to show they DO exist. It is not a matter of wether or not hey COULD exist. The problem is that you cannot prove they DO exist. The council is not going to change the way they do things just because something might exist. A meteor COULD strike the earth and kill us all. It's possible. But until you show me proof that it IS happening, I'm not going to change my schedule.