127 réponses à ce sujet

[Everwarden]

Nerevar-as wrote...

On the other side, people tend to respond when something they like is attacked. There should be more defending posts for DA2. The situation here feels very different from ME2 for example.

People assume that whatever side they're on is the reasonable one, and the other side is just 'shills' or 'haters' (hell, I'm like that too). Though no one can deny that there is a much, much larger tide of hate towards DA2 than there ever was for ME2 or Origins (for which there was only the bare minimum hater quota present). 

The reason is that DA2 is a slightly below average game that was sold as a sequel to one of the better games released last decade, obviously meant -solely- as a cash in. No developer could seriously back that game as a solid work they're proud of. 

[syllogi]

The OP is completely right, and this issue is why I'm so sad and upset with DA2. If *anybody* affiliated with the game would just admit that they did NOT put out the best quality product they could have produced, and that the direction they went in was motivated more by making a quick buck off the franchise name than "innovation", I would still be sad, but I wouldn't feel like Bioware thinks we're all morons who will just accept anything with their name on it.

Mike seems like a nice guy when he talks to the fans, but there is no way he doesn't know that this is not a matter of "the Shock of the New"...this is the shock of seeing one of your favorite games get a sequel that is so poorly made, it's embarrassing to think that I bought this at full price. Really. He could not possibly think we don't notice what's going on.

[Bmeszaros]

As a loyal Bioware Customer, I certainly feel a sense of betrayal by the company as far as DA2 goes. I felt like what I what I bought was not what it was billed as.

You can change things about Origins and still live up to the Dragon Age name, I just felt like Bioware went out of their way to change things that weren't broken.

[Bmeszaros]

TeenZombie wrote...

The OP is completely right, and this issue is why I'm so sad and upset with DA2. If *anybody* affiliated with the game would just admit that they did NOT put out the best quality product they could have produced, and that the direction they went in was motivated more by making a quick buck off the franchise name than "innovation", I would still be sad, but I wouldn't feel like Bioware thinks we're all morons who will just accept anything with their name on it.

Mike seems like a nice guy when he talks to the fans, but there is no way he doesn't know that this is not a matter of "the Shock of the New"...this is the shock of seeing one of your favorite games get a sequel that is so poorly made, it's embarrassing to think that I bought this at full price. Really. He could not possibly think we don't notice what's going on.

Ultimately, Bioware messed up by calling it "Dragon Age 2", almost pigeon-holing it to be reviewed and held against its predecessor. Fair or unfair, Sequels are generally given positive or negative reviews based on what they do to "improve" on the original. Had Bioware called it Dragon Age: The Champion, or something else, instead of basically part 2, Like Origins was, I feel like it would've been easier to seperate it and review it on its own merits.

Modifié par Bmeszaros, 14 avril 2011 - 02:51 .

[Keladis]

Plaintiff wrote...

Keladis wrote...
I personally love how he comment about there is a lot of people rating it 90 to 100, and only some of "The Other People" that wanted more of a Dragon Age Origins game expressing disappointment because from what I have seen across the web is a lot more people that were disappointed in Dragon Age 2 then those that liked it.

I wouldn't presume that the internet is an accurate representation of the Dragon Age fanbase.Or any group, for that matter. In my experience, most people who are satisfied with a product (any product, not just videogames) are much less likely to voice their opinion at all, because they feel no need to.
Meanwhile, dissatisfied customers are more likely to voice their opinion, and the ones that do are likely to do it in a highly exaggerated and obnoxious way. It's a phenomenon known as the "vocal minority". And then you factor in the anonymity of the internet, which amps up the douchebag factor to the nth degree.

It's not just the internet that I have heard or seen a lot of dislikes about the game, I have friends that did not like it, and they have friends that do not like it. I also was told by a game stop employee that a lot of people have brought back and traded it in for another game and that they have been hearing many complaints about the game from customers.

I am not saying there isnt a lot that like it, all I am saying from the info I have collected from people and web based it seems that more people was disappointed in the game then those that liked it. Hell survey on this forum have http://social.biowar...65/polls/16602/  have more people not liking the game then people that do, though its close to even on that one.

If someone like or love the game I am happy for them.

[Dracotamer]

It's clearly the majority that dislike it. They can deny it all they want. I blindly pre-ordered the signature edition and rationalized away all the stuff I read that had me doubting. I will NEVER do that again.

[Plaintiff]

Dracotamer wrote...

It's clearly the majority that dislike it.

Proof?

[Ksandor]

Plaintiff wrote...

Dracotamer wrote...

It's clearly the majority that dislike it.

Proof?

What Metacritic score and people comment on that site say anyway?

On a side note. I don't like the game and I don't have to prove it to anyone.

[Plaintiff]

Ksandor wrote...

What Metacritic score and people comment on that site say anyway?

As stated earlier in this same thread, I don't hold internet forums to be proof of anything. Of course you see a lot of complaints. Satisfied customers rarely feel the need to make mile-long rant posts about how extremely satisfied they are. Reviews are just opinions on paper. The fact that there are complaints proves nothing, except that people like to complain.

On a side note. I don't like the game and I don't have to prove it to anyone.

That's great. I don't care about your opinion, nor did I ask you to prove it. When individuals claim to speak for the majority, that is when I want proof. A broad, sweeping generalization like "the majority dislikes Dragon Age 2" holds about as much water as me saying "the majority dislikes milk".

[Everwarden]

Plaintiff wrote...
That's great. I don't care about your opinion, nor did I ask you to prove it. When individuals claim to speak for the majority, that is when I want proof. A broad, sweeping generalization like "the majority dislikes Dragon Age 2" holds about as much water as me saying "the majority dislikes milk".

Well short of sending out polls to the million DA2 buyers, one can't form literal proof that the majority dislike DA2. The evidence (not proof) is overwhelmingly in favor of DA2 being widely disliked, however. Origins didn't have an enormous metacritic backlash, and neither did ME2. Sales dropped sharply and abruptly after the initial rush of people buying it solely for having "Dragon Age" in the title, likely due to the widespread negative word of mouth. 

If that isn't evidence, what possibly -could- be?

Modifié par Everwarden, 15 avril 2011 - 10:38 .

[Killer3000ad]

OP's right, Laidlaw can't have anything to do with DA3 if Bioware wants to redeem themselves. It's quite clear at this point Laidlaw's a lost cause and will power on ahead with further streamlining and dumbing down for DA3.

"THink like a general, fight like a Spartan","Press a button and something awesome happens","We want COD's audience". Cringe.

Modifié par Killer3000ad, 15 avril 2011 - 10:50 .

[k177sh0t]

rofl, Mike Laidlaw's sacrifice was not in vain, at least he probably got BioWare a new fanbase :3

[Bmeszaros]

Killer3000ad wrote...

OP's right, Laidlaw can't have anything to do with DA3 if Bioware wants to redeem themselves. It's quite clear at this point Laidlaw's a lost cause and will power on ahead with further streamlining and dumbing down for DA3.

"THink like a general, fight like a Spartan","Press a button and something awesome happens","We want COD's audience". Cringe.

Nothing personal against Mr. Laidlaw, but I agree. I don't have a problem with changes in video game series, as long as they are made with an eye towards cleaning up the initial product and moving the franchise forward, while still retaining things that made the previous installments fan favorites.

Modifié par Bmeszaros, 15 avril 2011 - 12:33 .

[Louis deGuerre]

Mike basically had the following to say:

[efrgfhnm_]

To all those who say that it is obvious that the majority disliked Dragon Age 2, there is really no way to prove this.. I mean, it has sold 1 million copies, and all the groups which are meant to provide sweeping evidence are nowhere near that high. There is evidence that the majority of people who go on something like metacritic and comment dislike it sure. That does not mean that the people the game was meant to attract, who do not go on forums, dislike it. The professional reviews on the whole do not dislike it either, many did like it, but thought it was not as good as the first, which is what I think.
[Edit] Also, what is with the hate for Mike Laidlaw? He is obviously not gonna insult the game he has helped to make and is still trying to sell, no game designer ever does that this early on, so how is it a "betrayal" in any way? The whole team on Dragon Age 2 had a part, they must have all agreed with the ideas, so why is he being made into the scapegoat?

Modifié par efrgfhnm , 15 avril 2011 - 01:18 .

[ForeignPatriot]

efrgfhnm wrote...

To all those who say that it is obvious that the majority disliked Dragon Age 2, there is really no way to prove this.. I mean, it has sold 1 million copies, and all the groups which are meant to provide sweeping evidence are nowhere near that high. There is evidence that the majority of people who go on something like metacritic and comment dislike it sure. That does not mean that the people the game was meant to attract, who do not go on forums, dislike it. The professional reviews on the whole do not dislike it either, many did like it, but thought it was not as good as the first, which is what I think.

You are most right, friend. There is no way to prove either view. The only proof will be by seeing how sales fare in the coming months, most people don't expect it to do nearly as good as DA:O now that the public has word of mouth and reviews rather than just "Its Dragon Age" hype.

It'll also be interesting to see how many people trade it in and how many people will preorder DA 3 (if it gets made).

Does anyone have the sales figures to see how many copies were sold through pre-order? I think that information would be quite telling.

[Urazz]

Dracotamer wrote...

Seeing the interview in the Gameinformer May issue with Mike Laidlaw
saddened me greatly. After reading it in it's entirity it looks like he isn't even paying attention to the forums or
player reviews. He denies the game was dumbed down, or "streamlined" as they call it in the industry and in a manner of speaking tells us, the fans and consumers that we are wrong.

One, game companies aren't going to admit any flaws in games they make until well after it's been released and they are working on a sequal or similar class of game.

Also, why should he pay attention to the forums?  If Bioware did that then one would think Mass Effect 2 did horribly from all the complaints and stuff on the forums or alot of negative player reviews.  The forums basically serve as a feeding ground for the whiners and those that those that don't like the game to go on and complain about.  Also, alot of negative reviews from players are extremely biased or poorly done and aren't objective enough that Bioware will get anything useful out of it.

[efrgfhnm_]

ForeignPatriot wrote...

efrgfhnm wrote...

To all those who say that it is obvious that the majority disliked Dragon Age 2, there is really no way to prove this.. I mean, it has sold 1 million copies, and all the groups which are meant to provide sweeping evidence are nowhere near that high. There is evidence that the majority of people who go on something like metacritic and comment dislike it sure. That does not mean that the people the game was meant to attract, who do not go on forums, dislike it. The professional reviews on the whole do not dislike it either, many did like it, but thought it was not as good as the first, which is what I think.

You are most right, friend. There is no way to prove either view. The only proof will be by seeing how sales fare in the coming months, most people don't expect it to do nearly as good as DA:O now that the public has word of mouth and reviews rather than just "Its Dragon Age" hype.

It'll also be interesting to see how many people trade it in and how many people will preorder DA 3 (if it gets made).

Does anyone have the sales figures to see how many copies were sold through pre-order? I think that information would be quite telling.

What a nice reasonable view
In all seriousness, this is probably the only way to really find out, if the sales do fall at a very steep rate, then that is very substantial evidence that the word of mouth for this game is poor, and therefore the majority do not think it is worth getting.
And I have looked a few times, and I still cannot find those pre order figures. They will probably be pretty high though

[Keladis]

efrgfhnm wrote...

To all those who say that it is obvious that the majority disliked Dragon Age 2, there is really no way to prove this.. I mean, it has sold 1 million copies, and all the groups which are meant to provide sweeping evidence are nowhere near that high. There is evidence that the majority of people who go on something like metacritic and comment dislike it sure. That does not mean that the people the game was meant to attract, who do not go on forums, dislike it. The professional reviews on the whole do not dislike it either, many did like it, but thought it was not as good as the first, which is what I think.
[Edit] Also, what is with the hate for Mike Laidlaw? He is obviously not gonna insult the game he has helped to make and is still trying to sell, no game designer ever does that this early on, so how is it a "betrayal" in any way? The whole team on Dragon Age 2 had a part, they must have all agreed with the ideas, so why is he being made into the scapegoat?

Let just start using disappointed with the game and not dislike that would be more of a fact, because the numbers are much stronger to support that people didnt like the game as much as the first game and was disappointed in the game.

[efrgfhnm_]

Keladis wrote...

efrgfhnm wrote...

To all those who say that it is obvious that the majority disliked Dragon Age 2, there is really no way to prove this.. I mean, it has sold 1 million copies, and all the groups which are meant to provide sweeping evidence are nowhere near that high. There is evidence that the majority of people who go on something like metacritic and comment dislike it sure. That does not mean that the people the game was meant to attract, who do not go on forums, dislike it. The professional reviews on the whole do not dislike it either, many did like it, but thought it was not as good as the first, which is what I think.
[Edit] Also, what is with the hate for Mike Laidlaw? He is obviously not gonna insult the game he has helped to make and is still trying to sell, no game designer ever does that this early on, so how is it a "betrayal" in any way? The whole team on Dragon Age 2 had a part, they must have all agreed with the ideas, so why is he being made into the scapegoat?

Let just start using disappointed with the game and not dislike that would be more of a fact, because the numbers are much stronger to support that people didnt like the game as much as the first game and was disappointed in the game.

That's fair enough, even many of the supporters who wont hear a word against DA2 agree with that

[Bmeszaros]

efrgfhnm wrote...

To all those who say that it is obvious that the majority disliked Dragon Age 2, there is really no way to prove this.. I mean, it has sold 1 million copies, and all the groups which are meant to provide sweeping evidence are nowhere near that high. There is evidence that the majority of people who go on something like metacritic and comment dislike it sure. That does not mean that the people the game was meant to attract, who do not go on forums, dislike it. The professional reviews on the whole do not dislike it either, many did like it, but thought it was not as good as the first, which is what I think.
[Edit] Also, what is with the hate for Mike Laidlaw? He is obviously not gonna insult the game he has helped to make and is still trying to sell, no game designer ever does that this early on, so how is it a "betrayal" in any way? The whole team on Dragon Age 2 had a part, they must have all agreed with the ideas, so why is he being made into the scapegoat?

Lead Designer. Laidlaw is the easiest to scapegoat because he essentially has his name right at the top of the list. He had the final say on everything that went into the game (or at least I would expect him to with the title Lead Designer)

Certainly, If you didn't particularly enjoy the new Art style, Matthew Goldman may be someone that you singled out as Art Director, etc.....

I have no problems with Laidlaw defending and pushing aside questions about what I felt were several flaws within the game, its his baby, I'd expect him to defend it. That said, I don't agree with him.

[Everwarden]

Bmeszaros wrote...

Lead Designer. Laidlaw is the easiest to scapegoat because he essentially has his name right at the top of the list. He had the final say on everything that went into the game (or at least I would expect him to with the title Lead Designer)

He's the easiest scapegoat because he was in charge of the project and thus responsible for the results. A bad movie can be pinned (usually) on a bad director, and a bad game can in turn be pinned on a bad lead design.

[Persephone]

Sareth Cousland wrote...

Btw, this thread should be in the general discussion forum.

There is a thread about this at the snakep- er..."General Forum". I'd much rather keep it here where the flaming, insults and trolling are kept at a minimum.

[Persephone]

Perles75 wrote...

Sylvianus wrote...

It's political. Everyone does it. Mike simply sells its game, it's normal. Poor things, they are working, we do not review them. In interviews, we talk about good things.

But I think there were enough signs on this forum that Bioware is paying attention to feedback.

I agree. They cannot undo DA2 so they defend the choices they made, and they will consider the feedback from the players for DA3.

By the way, not that the community helps much: DA2 has been subject to all sorts of cricitism, 90% of which is pure desire of being polemic and has no real ground. Not to mention the hate campaigns that definitely not help anybody. So, to get the occasional interesting and reasonable criticisms, they have to filter out a lot of crap.

Exactly and precisely. *Persephone approves +10000000000000000*

[Persephone]

Plaintiff wrote...

Right, because he's totally gonna badmouth a game he helped produce in a widespread publication. "Hey guys, don't buy my product, it's junk. I don't need to pay off my mortgage this month".

Contrary to popular belief, the customer is NOT always right, and there's no such thing as "right" when it comes to videogames anyway. In my opinion, DA2 did almost eveything better than Origins, with the exceptions of party member interaction, which I felt could've been expanded, and the dialogue wheel which was at times innaccurate and I felt didn't offer enough variety in responses. The issues you mention don't bug me in the least.

Besides, who's to say Laidlaw doesn't genuinely feel this way? He's just as entitled to his view as you are to yours. When people say being disagreed with is a 'slap in the face', I roll my eyes. Being unable to handle dissenting opinions is a sign of immaturity to me.

And this!!! OH so much THIS!!! *Claps*