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Disapointed with Gameinformer May Issue Mike Laidlaw interview...


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#101
David Gaider

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Eva Galana wrote...
I hope that BioWare takes the thoughtful reviews left by its loyal followers (not merely customers mind you, but true blue followers and fans) and use that knowledge to continue to flesh out and enhance this intriguing universe.  Please do not relegate it to the back of the top shelf, forgotten and dusty.


We won't. The thoughtful, constructive reviews you mention are quite helpful, and I find the mixed ones perhaps the most interesting. The part they play is the part anyone can play when they communicate with a developer-- you can potentially influence our opinion.

But us trying to listen to everyone across the board and then make up our own minds with regards to what to do next, or looking upon our chosen path as a mix of what went right as well as what went wrong, just isn't enough for some people. Anything we say that isn't a mea culpa and a promise to reverse direction completely is treated as us saying "we did everything right and you're all a bunch of ninnies, nyah nyah". Which is pretty standard when you have such polarized camps and you must either be 100% in one camp or the other-- there is no inbetween for them-- but is also pretty silly and isn't about to influence anyone, developer or otherwise.

I'm certain that no matter what we do moving forward, there will be those who will be up in arms because we didn't listen to them and only to them. Which should be fun, but such is game development. :)

Modifié par David Gaider, 13 mai 2011 - 02:18 .


#102
Melca36

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David Gaider wrote...

Eva Galana wrote...
I hope that BioWare takes the thoughtful reviews left by its loyal followers (not merely customers mind you, but true blue followers and fans) and use that knowledge to continue to flesh out and enhance this intriguing universe.  Please do not relegate it to the back of the top shelf, forgotten and dusty.


We won't. The thoughtful, constructive reviews you mention are quite helpful, and I find the mixed ones perhaps the most interesting. The part they play is the part anyone can play when they communicate with a developer-- you can potentially influence our opinion.

But us trying to listen to everyone across the board and then make up our own minds with regards to what to do next, or looking upon our chosen path as a mix of what went right as well as what went wrong, just isn't enough for some people. Anything we say that isn't a mea culpa and a promise to reverse direction completely is treated as us saying "we did everything right and you're all a bunch of ninnies, nyah nyah". Which is pretty standard when you have such polarized camps and you are either 100% in one camp or the other-- there is no inbetween for them-- but is also pretty silly and isn't about to influence anyone, developer or otherwise.

I'm certain that no matter what we do moving forward, there will be those who will be up in arms because we didn't listen to them and only to them. Which should be fun, but such is game development. :)



I understand what you're saying about the mixed reviews being interesting.  
There is no middle ground at the moment.

I rated the game a 7/8 and have been called a hater  while the other side said my rating was too generous. :lol:

My intention was just to be fair and honest because there are some things in the game I really really like and there are elements I really dislike.

I understand is not easy to find a compromise or middle ground to please everybody though.

My hope is the next game incorporates the best parts of DA:2 and improves upon the aspects that need it.  ^_^

#103
Persephone

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Melca36 wrote...

David Gaider wrote...

Eva Galana wrote...
I hope that BioWare takes the thoughtful reviews left by its loyal followers (not merely customers mind you, but true blue followers and fans) and use that knowledge to continue to flesh out and enhance this intriguing universe.  Please do not relegate it to the back of the top shelf, forgotten and dusty.


We won't. The thoughtful, constructive reviews you mention are quite helpful, and I find the mixed ones perhaps the most interesting. The part they play is the part anyone can play when they communicate with a developer-- you can potentially influence our opinion.

But us trying to listen to everyone across the board and then make up our own minds with regards to what to do next, or looking upon our chosen path as a mix of what went right as well as what went wrong, just isn't enough for some people. Anything we say that isn't a mea culpa and a promise to reverse direction completely is treated as us saying "we did everything right and you're all a bunch of ninnies, nyah nyah". Which is pretty standard when you have such polarized camps and you are either 100% in one camp or the other-- there is no inbetween for them-- but is also pretty silly and isn't about to influence anyone, developer or otherwise.

I'm certain that no matter what we do moving forward, there will be those who will be up in arms because we didn't listen to them and only to them. Which should be fun, but such is game development. :)



I understand what you're saying about the mixed reviews being interesting.  
There is no middle ground at the moment.

I rated the game a 7/8 and have been called a hater  while the other side said my rating was too generous. :lol:

My intention was just to be fair and honest because there are some things in the game I really really like and there are elements I really dislike.

I understand is not easy to find a compromise or middle ground to please everybody though.

My hope is the next game incorporates the best parts of DA:2 and improves upon the aspects that need it.  ^_^


*Persephone approves +100* Well said, my fellow Alistairian. :)

#104
LobselVith8

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I think criticism can help explain why people weren't satisfied. Personally, I'd like to see DLC allow Hawke to be proactive instead of reactive, and I would like to see choice have an impact, rather than having to follow a linear progression where choices don't seem to carry any weight when it all leads down the same road. Hawke spent several years in Kirkwall, but I feel like he had less of an impact than The Warden did, and he didn't spend nearly as long in the societies he irrevocably changed with his involvement.

Did really enjoy the companions, especially having a blood mage who wasn't a villain, and I'm hoping we get to learn more about them in the future.

#105
SheilaD67

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David Gaider wrote...

Eva Galana wrote...
I hope that BioWare takes the thoughtful reviews left by its loyal followers (not merely customers mind you, but true blue followers and fans) and use that knowledge to continue to flesh out and enhance this intriguing universe.  Please do not relegate it to the back of the top shelf, forgotten and dusty.


We won't. The thoughtful, constructive reviews you mention are quite helpful, and I find the mixed ones perhaps the most interesting. The part they play is the part anyone can play when they communicate with a developer-- you can potentially influence our opinion.

But us trying to listen to everyone across the board and then make up our own minds with regards to what to do next, or looking upon our chosen path as a mix of what went right as well as what went wrong, just isn't enough for some people. Anything we say that isn't a mea culpa and a promise to reverse direction completely is treated as us saying "we did everything right and you're all a bunch of ninnies, nyah nyah". Which is pretty standard when you have such polarized camps and you are either 100% in one camp or the other-- there is no inbetween for them-- but is also pretty silly and isn't about to influence anyone, developer or otherwise.

I'm certain that no matter what we do moving forward, there will be those who will be up in arms because we didn't listen to them and only to them. Which should be fun, but such is game development. :)



Sort of like sorting through the flotsam looking for the gems, eh?  There is no way to meet the approval of everyone.  That is impossible, and no matter how 'good' a product, there will always be those naysayers. Most definitely. 

My disappointment came from the 'fact' (my fact, mind you, not necessarily what is actual fact) that I didn't see what I fell in love with in DA:O, and BioWare taking a 'working' receipe and changing it (too many cooks, so to speak, but in BioWare's case, too many ingredients).

Ha!  And, of course, what for me was a near winning final dish in DA:O was not to everyone's elses tastes.  *sighs* 

But, you know me (maybe), I'll buy all of the DLCs and the expansions and sequels, because I am in love with this dark, crazy, intriguing universe.  Image IPB

But, that doesn't mean I won't let ya know when I'm not pleased!

Okay, now tell Luke to get back to pushing on the next patch!  Oh!  And the next DLC, please?

#106
Vicious

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Laidlaw ain't going anywhere, he supplanted the guy who was behind DA:O and made it what it is. DA is Laidlaw's now and he will make it as he sees fit.

That is to say:

action combat
Waves dropping from the sky
chunky giblets

and a bunch of other stuff i actually liked about DA2 [voiced protag] that i can't mention cuz im mad.

Modifié par Vicious, 12 mai 2011 - 11:01 .


#107
IanPolaris

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Vicious wrote...

Laidlaw ain't going anywhere, he supplanted the guy who was behind DA:O and made it what it is. DA is Laidlaw's now and he will make it as he sees fit.

That is to say:

action combat
Waves dropping from the sky
chunky giblets

and a bunch of other stuff i actually liked about DA2 [voiced protag] that i can't mention cuz im mad.


I wish you were wrong.  Too bad you're not.  The only way that ML is going anywhere is if EA decides to fire him and that won't happen until/unless the next installment (if any!) of DA flops as well.

-Polaris

#108
_Aine_

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LobselVith8 wrote...

I think criticism can help explain why people weren't satisfied. Personally, I'd like to see DLC allow Hawke to be proactive instead of reactive, and I would like to see choice have an impact, rather than having to follow a linear progression where choices don't seem to carry any weight when it all leads down the same road. Hawke spent several years in Kirkwall, but I feel like he had less of an impact than The Warden did, and he didn't spend nearly as long in the societies he irrevocably changed with his involvement.


I have to agree with this... all of it even, I think.  

Pro-active instead of reactive.   Society in general is more reactive than proactive these days, and I can *see* the appeal of reactive in a game because there tends to be more emotion involved, so it will illicit more angst and traumatic bang for the buck... BUT the sense of satisfaction when you can act pro-actively can't be beat.  Using cunning, planning, deep thought and even your wiles to means that you anticipate a problem, and work ahead of time to prevent that problem from ever coming to light or having it change the path you are on, or the approach of people to you based on your actions?  Rich!  In my lofty what-if dreams, I wonder what would have happened if we could have enlisted Ketojan based on actions in a previous quest-line, the cumulation of respect in qunari quests enabling the siding with the Qunari in Act 2, and having weighted influence points with varying people/factions enabling different endings, maybe even a secret ending where a group you helped the most (almost like alignment) comes back to assist.  Being able to catch your mothers killer etc.   

That ties in with having your actions really mean something.  The thing that dissapointed me the most wasn't the reused maps, the different "feel" of the game ( even though I do think that the style of menu's etc did in effect have a different style, almost "branding" differently than the era of the game...but I digress...) or even some of the commonly used criticisms you see on the board here.  For me, it was this feeling that I really didn't exist in the game world... hear me out, I know it sounds strange. lol  I mean, I was IN it, but I may as well not have been. All the words about me being a Champion felt like mere lip-service.  Political posturing for the gamers ego and not based on the reality of my characters effect on the world they exist in.  My choices didn't seem to make a difference to the ending.  No matter WHAT I chose, Anders did his thing. No matter what I said, <blank> happened.  I always had to fight both camps at the end.  Etc.  There was less illusion of choice.  And less effect to my cause.

Does this make it a bad game?  No, no... I don't think it does.  Does it make it a bad RPG?  I am not an expert enough on what an RPG is to say.  What it *does* do is make it feel a bit more like you are playing out the character in someone else's story, where in DAO there was more of a feeling that *you* had a role in creating that story.  I do know it is part illusion, the magic of perceived choice.  In that respect, DAO did it better for me personally.  There are many things that DA2 did equally well, and some areas it did much better.  

I am quite solidly in the "on the fence" camp.  I enjoyed the game for many things, and though I take breaks, I have happily played through several times to explore more of the story (and to experience it differently).  Still, there is a sense of "almost" with the game for me personally. First: I almost hated it. Then: I almost loved it.  I like some and dislike some.  *shrug*   

Modifié par shantisands, 12 mai 2011 - 11:24 .


#109
jesuno

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Oh no, old thread resurrection. But, I guess since Gaider signed off on it, this one is saved.

#110
David Gaider

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jesuno wrote...
Oh no, old thread resurrection. But, I guess since Gaider signed off on it, this one is saved.


I hold the power to authenticate any resurrection.

Fear me.

#111
jesuno

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David Gaider wrote...

jesuno wrote...
Oh no, old thread resurrection. But, I guess since Gaider signed off on it, this one is saved.


I hold the power to authenticate any resurrection.

Fear me.


Ah. Is it the virgin sacrifies or the tears of children that fuels such power?

#112
Fast Jimmy

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Knowing us Bioware fans? He'd probably have the best luck with virgin sacrifices.


BURN!

...on my own kind...

#113
YohkoOhno

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David is right in terms of fans. One of the biggest things you can do is just listen to the hard core fans. The population of this forum does not equal the total audience.

I'm sure feedback is being taken into account. But they have to filter it--some people post here once per hour and that might seem to give them more weight then the person who posts 5 times a year, but their votes have equal value. So too things like metrics, sales figures, reviews, etc.

I'm sure they can figure out some things that went wrong--I don't hear anybody praising the recycled areas and with better competition out there I doubt DA3 will have that flaw--but there are other aspects where results are mixed: Voiced protagonist--some love it, some hate it. What do you choose? You base it on all sorts of feedback, and you may still decide to change things arround if you feel it will bring a better narrative.

There are companies that actually died by just listening to their existing audience. Word Perfect used to be the king of the word processors, then decided to stick with DOS because their current audience was a DOS processor, so they missed the GUI revolution and ended up losing to the Windows based Word Processors. I would rather--at least for their sake--have Bioware morph into a viable business even if they abandon what was known as "classic RPGs" altogether (as long as they make fun games), then to die by serving a hard-core audience.

Not saying that is what's going to happen, but I'm just saying businesses must change sometimes.

Modifié par YohkoOhno, 13 mai 2011 - 01:03 .


#114
YohkoOhno

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And sometimes people pick up on a meme and don't pay attention to the meaning. The "awesome" meme against Mike Laidlaw is really unfair. I got the point he was trying to say--DA:O combat moves slowly and repetitively like an RTS. He wanted more immediate feedback. This is EXACTLY the same thing The Witcher 2 is doing, allowing more immediate feedback--their developers even said Arkham Asylumn was a big influence (as well as Bioware games, Assassin's Creed, etc.) Now, DA2 seems to have lost a little direction IMO with the EXECUTION, but it certainly does not mean that the idea was wrong. But that seems to be a major mocking point the fans do. Which I think it totally unfair. RPGs have been slowly moving into Action games with a Cinematic appeal since the computers gained enough fidelity and designers gained enough experience.  I mean, complain about the execution of it, but don't complain about wanting CoD's audience. Heck, AC2 is almost an mini RPG with some of the mechanics.

Modifié par YohkoOhno, 13 mai 2011 - 01:10 .


#115
Realmzmaster

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I appreciate David Gaider coming to the forum and expressing his views and answering some of our questions. Gamers sometimes forget that people work for those big companies. People who appreciate constructive criticism.
People who do not like being yelled at, insulted and in some posts threaten. Yes DA 2 had faults. Yes some people hated it, some people loved it and for others it was average.
I understand people want to let off steam if they feel they have been cheated, but do it in a respectful manner.
Gamers who insult the developers should not be surprised if the devlopers respond in kind. They are people just like you and me. Constructive criticism is good. Bad behavior should not be tolerated.

#116
_Aine_

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YohkoOhno wrote...

 Now, DA2 seems to have lost a little direction IMO with the EXECUTION, but it certainly does not mean that the idea was wrong. But that seems to be a major mocking point the fans do. Which I think it totally unfair. RPGs have been slowly moving into Action games with a Cinematic appeal since the computers gained enough fidelity and designers gained enough experience.


I agree with your first point ( well, the second one too, but I am quoting for the first primarily).  It seemed to me to be more of a gelling issue, one of cohesion than anything really wrong.  It is kind of like a skeleton, that has all its parts but some of the pieces are put on the wrong sides.  You may not be able to quickly say what feels off, but your eye knows something is.  So, everyone gets together and argues about it.  One may say the femur is too long, or the neck way too long to be realistic.  The arms are too short, or the head too big.  Meanwhile, it is really just the left hand is on the right and vice versa.   :P  Doesn't mean the dude didn't have a huge head on too long of a neck, but those are details and not the cause of your perceptions. 

....and I am thinking too much, officially.  Time to play a game me-thinks.  

EDIT: I think part of the huge perception of blah comes from the fact that if you state a "constructive criticism", it magically ceases to be a simply comment about that particular thing and instead is largely perceived as "the" reason instead of a single comment.  :)

Modifié par shantisands, 13 mai 2011 - 01:40 .


#117
TEWR

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David Gaider wrote...

jesuno wrote...
Oh no, old thread resurrection. But, I guess since Gaider signed off on it, this one is saved.


I hold the power to authenticate any resurrection.

Fear me.


Image IPBImage IPB

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 13 mai 2011 - 02:01 .


#118
Guest_ahuevocabron_*

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David Gaider wrote...

Eva Galana wrote...
I hope that BioWare takes the thoughtful reviews left by its loyal followers (not merely customers mind you, but true blue followers and fans) and use that knowledge to continue to flesh out and enhance this intriguing universe.  Please do not relegate it to the back of the top shelf, forgotten and dusty.


We won't. The thoughtful, constructive reviews you mention are quite helpful, and I find the mixed ones perhaps the most interesting. The part they play is the part anyone can play when they communicate with a developer-- you can potentially influence our opinion.

But us trying to listen to everyone across the board and then make up our own minds with regards to what to do next, or looking upon our chosen path as a mix of what went right as well as what went wrong, just isn't enough for some people. Anything we say that isn't a mea culpa and a promise to reverse direction completely is treated as us saying "we did everything right and you're all a bunch of ninnies, nyah nyah". Which is pretty standard when you have such polarized camps and you must either be 100% in one camp or the other-- there is no inbetween for them-- but is also pretty silly and isn't about to influence anyone, developer or otherwise.

I'm certain that no matter what we do moving forward, there will be those who will be up in arms because we didn't listen to them and only to them. Which should be fun, but such is game development. :)


I certainly wouldn't mind waiting for a 2013 or 2014 release for that matter if it meant DA3 is being worked on and polished to perfection much like I'm sure that was the reason for the very well received delay of Mass Effect 3.  I'm glad our opinions matter and are being taken under advisement (recycled dungeons and waves of enemies a must-go).  Thanks Gaider!

#119
TerraMantis

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David Gaider wrote...

As for Dragon Mass Effect 3, lets not fool ourselves- the bar has been lowered and the sales continue- quality, polish, effort - these things take time to produce.
If you can sell yellow lead to the masses and call it gold, why go through all that extra work to make a game with the above attributes when subpar sells almost as well ?
Disappointing but true.


If you wish to believe that, it's up to you. I suppose it'll be up to us to prove otherwise, won't it?


...yes...yes it will. Don't let us down.

#120
Pasquale1234

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ElvaliaRavenHart wrote...

Wasn't it more the console players having issue with the art design of the original game?  I play on the pc and I never felt that the first game was that bad.  I do know on the PS3 version it really doesn't look that good (DAO).  I understand why they changed the art direction.  I think they did a great job on alot of the areas and technical side of making the game.  I just wish more thought had gone into those maps.  Using the same areas over and over is what got to me and is my only real disappointment with the game. 


I play on PS3, and really preferred the look and feel of DA:O.  I had to move a chair closer to my TV to read the journal entries in DA2.  I never needed to rearrange furniture to play DA:O, and don't know whether I would be willing to do that for any other franchise.

If the alternative to re-used cave/cavern maps would be fewer quests, I'll take the re-used maps.  It is entirely conceivable to me that Kirkwall and its surrounding areas has one set of interconnected underground caverns with multiple entry/exit points.

I also preferred the more realistic look and feel of combat in DA:O.  The oft-maligned "Warden shuffle" seemed appropriate for a character wearing massive armor and swinging a heavy blade; I found it immersive.  Exploding bodies and oceans of blood serves as a constant reminder that you are playing a game... but then, I'm also one who always turns off the persistant gore switch.

I would have enjoyed more interaction with the characters, especially the LI, if nothing more than to be able to collect an occasional kiss.  The characters are so very compelling and intriguing - a huge draw for me, and a major reason why I care about Thedas.  I look forward to seeing how this franchise moves forward.

#121
Bryy_Miller

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David Gaider wrote...

jesuno wrote...
Oh no, old thread resurrection. But, I guess since Gaider signed off on it, this one is saved.


I hold the power to authenticate any resurrection.

Fear me.


I see what you did there.

#122
Huntress

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jesuno wrote...

David Gaider wrote...

jesuno wrote...
Oh no, old thread resurrection. But, I guess since Gaider signed off on it, this one is saved.


I hold the power to authenticate any resurrection.

Fear me.


Ah. Is it the virgin sacrifies or the tears of children that fuels such power?


No virgins in Kirkwal so is tears!!:lol:

Modifié par Huntress, 15 mai 2011 - 12:21 .


#123
bossk-office

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David Gaider wrote...

I hold the power to authenticate any resurrection.

Fear me.

These are my favourite moments on here :D

#124
TiaraBlade

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Interesting posts here so far. I think sadly that many of us were disappointed not because of the changes like voiced protagonist and more action injected into the combat (postive changes IMHO) but the repeitivenes of the game, the lack of scope (including the reused enivronments), and the aimlessness of the narrative to the point that the final scene seemed more akin to the end of Disk 1 or 2 of a four disc game (referencing Final Fantasy from the PS era) rather than the full game.

Hawke's rise to power could have been interesting but it just lacked clarity. Indeed, the title of Champion seemed quite meaningless: nothing changed- you're still the errand boy/errand girl of Kirkwall. In a video, the developers asks (paraphrasing): "what does it mean to be the Champion of Kirkwall? Do you have a special power, command armies, etc..."

Well, in the end, it really meant nothing.

I liked that the developers sought to diverge from the "defeat the big bad demon" that is so cliche but it didn't gel and instead I felt as if I was rail roaded through a series of encounters where I lacked choice. No matter what I do or say, the Que still revolt and try to take over the city, the mages and templars still throw down, etc.. We are there waiting for the final confrontation like watching a car wreck happen, albeit over 50 hours instead of a few seconds.

In DA:O, you raise your army, kick in the Arch Demon's front door, and kill it. You are active. In DA2, you are always reacting and just swept up in events; very unsatisfying.

Some others had some interesting ideas where you choices really matter. Suppose you had the choice to side with the Que or not? If you kick them out, an army of them shows up and YOU as the Champion must rally the people, Templars, mages, etc.... to defend it. Perhaps you will displace Meredith as the leader and install someone else in to have peace between the two. Or maybe you will use the mages as cannon fodder and breed resentment that will become open rebellion.

Real choice, driven by the hero of the story instead of dragging someone through the same dungeons to pad out the time with stuff that doesn't really have anything to do with the plot.

#125
TiaraBlade

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Darth Krytie wrote...

I think it's ridiculous to expect a company man to spout anything but company lines. It's unreasonable to expect him to blurt out a huge mea cupla especially since there are plenty who do enjoy the game, like me.

Also, I know that more people preferred Origins...but I wouldn't consider slumping sales over this and the next month as a sign of a huge flop. There's an industry-wide slump...according to an article I read.

Anyhow, I think the number one sin of Dragon Age 2 is not being Dragon Age: Origins.


I am not sure that I agree with this. Although there will always be the "they changed it and now it sucks" crowd, I think that we are willing to accept and even celebrate change if it's for the better. Look at Mass Effect 2: some people complained about the stripping away of RPG elements but most of them considerd ME2 to be a superior sequel. ME2 is beloved by most here while DA2 is... well divisive.