195 réponses à ce sujet

[Muffildy]

Im making a run through with an invincible spirit mage.
Currently cunning 44 magic 20 level 13 with a mod to remove stat requirments from gear. Act 2 i got self buffed
dodge 80/78/58
armor 85/75/65
This mage can seriously tank; dps is awful though so shes more of a last woman standing hold the line type character so that she can revive the 3 dps companions.
Example of tanking prowess: mature dragon, cannot kill me. The gauntlet in sundermount with the golem that sells stuff took 12 minutes to kill me (the mage there is the one who did it - the rest couldnt touch me)
Cant wait till i get force mage spec so i can get the 100 fortitude and increased staff dmg. probably going to pump my magic with the rest of the levels since her dps is terrible.

[Irish Porkchopp]

mr_afk wrote...

 Okay, I this time I did it in a table on excel which made things a lot easier. I found some pretty exciting results:

Dangit I can't see your pretty pictures!  But interesting results for sure!

Just one last side-note before I get my calcs criticised for been biased; :innocent:
I just found it funny to note that my blood mage build, with it's 26 constitution and it's 4mana to 1health ratio is the equivalent of a non-bloodmage's (e.g. FM/SH) 45 or so willpower - If you only take into account using half your health as a mana pool. I was trying to work out what the equivalent 'pure magic-willpower' build would be (if you held constant the mana pool sizes) and such a build would only have ~42 magic which is actually less than my crit-mage build. Plus, if i really wanted to, there's nothing stopping me from using up more than half my health. So basically, bloodmagic is ridiculously powerful and I like it. 

With 26 constitution this means your health is 185.  So a 4:1 mana/health ratio gives you an effective mana pool of 740!  Yowza.  Compare this to a 45 willpower which is 325 mana. 

[mr_afk]

Muffildy wrote...

Im making a run through with an invincible spirit mage. 

Haha I wish I had an invincible spirit mage  - but I like dealing damage too much to skip blood mage. I don' t quite understand your build though, are you investing in cunning solely for its effect on defence?
Because while I think that defence is underrated by everyone (it's actually pretty useful for escaping stagger-locks/reducing damage taken from autoattacking grunts etc) it definately isn't worth sacrificing magic for. Maybe you could try pumping magic so that you have at least 90+% attack before pumping cunning?

If you've modded away requirements does that mean you can equip rogue-restricted gear? If so, you could try equipping the stealth boots (from black emporium). They're pretty much the best boots in the entire game. I'm not sure if you even want my advice (you seem pretty content with your build) but if you go for a bloodmage/spirit healer (instead of force mage) and invest in some rings that prevent knockback you could have a really invincible mage-boxing bag. Because by no longer having to invest in willpower you are free to pump up your constitution to ridiculous levels - and as healing is mostly done by percentages etc this means that heal/healing aura wil heal more health each second.

Irish Porkchopp wrote...

Dangit I can't see your pretty pictures!  But interesting results for sure!

With 26 constitution this means your health is 185.  So a 4:1 mana/health ratio gives you an effective mana pool of 740!  Yowza.  Compare this to a 45 willpower which is 325 mana. 

Arrghh really??
Damnit, I'll try figure out a way to re-upload it. I was pretty sure that all you needed to do was [img ] imagelink [/ img]?? bugger.
Oh well. If you there's a fight you would like to see the build go up against I can show you some actual in-game numbers as well (destroyed a few kirkwall at night types before crashing from not enough sleep - but they don't really count because you can pretty much win by just autoattacking....)

haha anyway, I was comparing against using only half my hp pool because I figured that it wouldn't really be fair to compare total hp (because on top of spell casting you'll get injured etc and want to get healed). Still, blood magic is pretty amazing.
Except against shades. <_< Forgot about them. May have to reinvest in more lightning/cold spells... 


Edit: Updated the table so you can see finally those shiny colours in their full glory! I think.. It's working for me anyway

Modifié par mr_afk, 22 avril 2011 - 04:57 .

[Jack-Nader]

Forbidden

You don't have permission to access /gZ9Yr.jpg on this server.

Can't view the JPG

[mr_afk]

aww really???!! man, what is up with this crap, first couldn't get it to consistently appear and now this. 
Try this link for now: http://img130.images...357/tablemo.jpg

I'll try uploading it again.

I think it works now.
And yeah, your build sounds like it's pretty heavy hitting. I think that's probably the best setup for an elemental mage (I didn't know that +%fire could get that high!!) But for a more spirit/physical build I'm hoping that focusing on crit damage (and maybe +% physical if that works for mage spells?) will work out for the best. Because it's quite obvious that the +%element gear out there allows for much bigger percentage increases in damage compared to %critical damage, but since I aim to only use a little bit of cold and electricity while mainly focusing on haemorrhages, crushing prisons and spirit bombs I think that a crit-mage should perform superiorly.

I think that my calcs are pretty accurate though I wish I could compare it against the optimised equipment of a pure magic bloodmage (using willpower to equip any +magic or +crit damage robes). Oh well, have fun with them haha

Modifié par mr_afk, 22 avril 2011 - 03:40 .

[Jack-Nader]

Yeh I can see it now. Your attributes are messed up tho. Sometimes they add to 110, others 113. Is that intended?

[mr_afk]

Jack-Nader wrote...

Yeh I can see it now. Your attributes are messed up tho. Sometimes they add to 110, others 113. Is that intended?

Yeeeapp, I think I must have forgotten to explain that (or glossed over it too fast).
Basically I had the cap of the antivan king equipped for my crit-build. As it had a 20dex/cun requirement the pure magic setup couldn't equip it. Which is unfortunate because it gives the crit-mage a slight advantage.

I had 141 attribute points if you want to count strength and willpower haha.

Here's the builds (Main viable ones tested):
Crit Mage
Strength 13
Dexterity 21
Magic 45
Cunning 21
Willpower 15
Constitution 26

Pure Magic Bloodmage
Strength 12
Dexterity 12
Magic 59
Cunning 13
Willpower 14
Constitution 26

I think I added one constitution to the pure magic build to maintain equal blood pools

Modifié par mr_afk, 22 avril 2011 - 04:17 .

[Jack-Nader]

You're going to have synergy problems if you attempt to make a physical mage build. There is only 1 physical staff that bypasses armor. Stacking crit gear on that staff is a complete waste. Your staff is always going to be your mages greatest asset. You use it more than you use your spells. It pays to create a build around staff damage. If you can get that damage to translate to your spells too, then more power to you!

Here is something for you to chew on tho

4% physical damage = 4% critcal chance +50% critcal damage = 8% critcal chance.

So in game, if I see a ring with 4% phsyical damage and I also see a ring that has +2% crit chance +4% crit damage. I know immidiately that the former has superior damage output. There are only a handful of critical damage gear that outperform the best damage% items for equal slots.

#1 Four fingred eddy has +2 dex +2cun +8% critical chance and +4% attack speed. This compares to a physical damage amulet of around 9%. The only elemental% amulet of that calabre is blue flame. The best "stock" amulet I saw was +7% elemental damage (spirit,cold or fire)

If you want the best glass cannon, do what I did and go a straight up magic build. Take the blood magic specialization and vitality. Just through that you have 175 HP. Adding a rune of valiance adds an additional 35HP. Thats plenty of HP! I ended up taking the first blood magic talent right before fighting meridith only because her attacks blow away all your mana. If she had no such attack I would not have bothered.

[Att3r0]

it works iff you use show image , if click on it gives error.

You cast via blood magic ? got points in con ? why compare it vs a mage that casts from mana and dont need Con?
If you compare vs the standard eye set then crit is gonna win obvioussly (unless you would take into account misses but spells dont miss so...

second case - there is lack of unique +% elemental gear the only one is robe from emp act3. Apart from that you need to use generic items and swap sets ;/
Also there is lack in accesories for +% damage.(there are some but they dont cover all elements)

you can imagine this to be this way. ..
unique elemental gear > unique crit > generic elemental > generic crit.
compare Four-Fingered Eddie's Lucky Talisman for example - dura's blue flame give way more damage for given elements.

obviously you need to remember about diminishing effect.

% elemental gear is stronger , main advantage of crit build is that you dont need to swap gear for elements. This however is only valid for act1-2. The robe from act 3 is simply too good for crit build to win it.

[Jack-Nader]

Here are my end stats :=

Str 18
Dex 27
Magic 100  (spent 79 points here)
29 willpower (only 9 points added to will)
con 28 (215hp) - no health increasing items or points spent on constitution

I used mystic vestments +2 will, Uzara's tooth +1 to all attributes, ring of no wishes +1 to all attributes, staff of violation +3 will, gauntlets with a valiance rune + 6 to all attributes, as prebuff equipment. This meant that I only needed to spend a total of 9 attribute points in willpower. It's possible to reduce this cost further with other items. Once I hit the magic cap I then put all the rest of the points into dexterity. Boosting critical chance > boosting critical damage. Keep in mind that valiance was +6 and robes of unblemished cleanliness is +2 attributes. I am "technically" taking my magic to 92.

Gear I had equiped was

Falon din, 42 base fire damage +10% rune of devestation, +35% attack speed primeval rune, +16% fire damage + 8 fire damage
Superior headware +7% fire damage
Gauntlets dropped by high dragon, +4% cold +4% fire, 1 rune slot where I put valiance +6 attributes
Robes of unblemished cleanliness, +2 attributes, +24% to all elemental damage ecept spirit, +28% healing
Superior boots , +6% fire damage
Belth of primevals, +4% cold, fire, electricity, spirit
Ornate amulet, +7% fire damage
Ornate ring, +5% fire damage
Ring of the ferryman, +24% electricity and fire damage, +2 magic *hmm didn't see this .. I should have take magic to 90 so i've actually wasted 2 attribute points here!  Doh!

Elemental mastery and pyromancy add +50% fire and +25% cold damage

Modifié par Jack-Nader, 22 avril 2011 - 04:37 .

[mr_afk]

Hmm.. I also tested a pure magic blood mage that had the willpower for using mage robes (while having the same constitution as the other two builds) and it was relatively so terrible I didn't bother adding it in.
i.e. unless you get vitality (spec in spirit healer) you're going to have to waste points in willpower AND constitution meaning that your magic is going to be severely reduced and your damage will be so gimped in comparison.

As I like the utility of been able to control the battle field (dragging enemies together/out of stealth and basically slowing them to a halt) a spirit healer build isn't really high on my agenda. But yeah, thanks for the info re:

4% physical damage = 4% critcal chance +50% critcal damage = 8% critcal chance.

Where do you think crit damage would fit in? As far as I can tell, the usefulness of +crit damage depends both on the base weapon damage (magic) as well as the crit chance (dex). In any case, items such as the stalker boar hide (5% crit chance, 12% crit damage) will add on far more damage than most of the robes available during act 1 and 2.

And let me rephrase - I am certainly NOT going to use mostly physical staves (heaven forbid, they truly suck). They encounter nasty problems such as not getting extra damage from elemental weaknesses as well as having to overcome the enemies armour-score. I am thinking of focusing more on spirit staves (when not facing an enemy with certain weaknesses), because if you think about it, the crit-damage etc will help with any element and any staff. My point about the physical damage was more on blood mage abilities and crushing prison - in both cases the spell ignores the enemy armour and is not affected by +% elemental damage -but is affected by +crit damage/chance and +%physical. Since I plan on 'chunking' enemies (or maybe doing that weird hands tearing people apart kill-animation) I would hope that my build would be more helpful than an elemental build.

Because I did do a pure magic elemental build (very similar to yours infact) before it became unplayable due to the isabela std. Anyhow, due to the number of times I saw that firestorm animation I vowed to never touch that spell again (even though it probably would look so awesome set against epic background music.....)
Anyway, thanks at looking at the calcs. I'll think about things some more once I get higher levelled.

Probably might see some more calcs in here too - they're suprisingly fun....never thought i'd ever to touch maths again after highschool let alone do it for a game hahaha

btw, I still haven't figured out/remembered how to optimise damage from three variables (e.g. dps while considering dex, cun and magic at same time). I don't suppose your crazy maths magic can enlighten me? 

Att3r0 wrote...

it works iff you use show image , if click on it gives error.
You cast via blood magic ? got points in con ? why compare it vs a mage that casts from mana and dont need Con?
% elemental gear is stronger , main advantage of crit build is that you dont need to swap gear for elements. This however is only valid for act1-2. The robe from act 3 is simply too good for crit build to win it.

Does the link work now? I'm really sucky at BBCode, only started using it (read: googling how-to-guides) when I started typing this guide.

And I was comparing against a pure magic blood mage. I basically was comparing the difference between dumping some points into dex/cun and equipping +crit gear against pumping everything into magic while holding their base blood pools constant. I also calculated a pure magic blood mage with enough willpower to equip robes but that was really no comparison (because excluding +% elemental damage, that was pretty much a pure magic build with wasted points in willpower).
A non-blood mage could be considered to be similar to the stats on the pure blood mage as well. If less points were put into con and more into willpower you'd have a pretty glass cannony mage (without much mana). And in such a case the crit-mage would still outperform it... does that make sense?

I am the first to admit that for an elemental mage build, getting robes etc would probably be best. My goal is mainly to have a multipurpose crit-build which not only has versatility in elements but can dish out greater damage on physical spells (hemorrhage and crushing prison). I do think that i may end up having to get the robe of unblemished cleanliness however. It's stats are just too good. If only it had +spirit/phyiscal damage as well...

Modifié par mr_afk, 22 avril 2011 - 04:53 .

[Jack-Nader]

mr_afk wrote...

Where do you think crit damage would fit in? As far as I can tell, the usefulness of +crit damage depends both on the base weapon damage (magic) as well as the crit chance (dex). In any case, items such as the stalker boar hide (5% crit chance, 12% crit damage) will add on far more damage than most of the robes available during act 1 and 2.

That's not accurate

You can pick up neophyte/adept/ superior robes with +13-15% fire damage in act 1 and 2

Math is this

Dealing fire damage =
-lets say base damage is 100 for simplicity
over 100 hits -

100 * 100 *1.14 = 11400 fire damage to anything rated "normal", double that to anything weak to fire, zero if immune.

Critical damage gear with same base staff

(95 *100) + (5*100 * 1.62) = 10310

[Jack-Nader]

I am thinking of focusing more on spirit staves (when not facing an enemy with certain weaknesses), because if you think about it, the crit-damage etc will help with any element and any staff.

This I have actually toyed with.  It's not going to pan out how you think tho.

Basically it is because of the gear in the game.  Robes of unblemished cleanliness does not boost spirit damage.  Also there are no "good" high level rune staves that deal spirit damage.  Cold line also suffers from this problem.  Fire line has +25% damage over all other classes.  25% damage > 5% critical damage from spirit line.   Spirit% damage only boosts staff and spirit bolt.  Unfortunately it does nothing for walking bomb.

If you take spirit line to mastery then you'll have to pick up some crummy spells.  However, 5% critcal chance is certainly worth it if you have a tonne of extra talents spare. 

Basically anything immune to fire -> switch to cold.  Anything rated "normal", due to the %gear of fire and a primeval rune, fire will actually come out on par.  Anything rated "weak", fire will slaughter.  
To give you an example of just how much a slaughter, my staff was doing between 500 and 1000 HP damage to all the fire weak creatures in act III.

Modifié par Jack-Nader, 22 avril 2011 - 05:02 .

[mr_afk]

Haha nooo what I meant was for non-elemental(fire) spells/staves!!! 
Lets say if you were specialised in physical/spirit and there weren't any +% physical/spirit robes available (I know there are spirit robes but just pretend they dont ahaha); by increasing crit damage all your spirit spells and staff damage would improve more than if you just got one of the +magic attribute robes from the black emporium right?

And my question about the maths is more about the whole
Each point into dex = 1% crit chance
Each point into cun = 1% crit damage
Each point into magic = 0.5 base damage

So how do you link all three together and optimise the dps?
I know how to optimise for two of those variables - but the thing that becomes really screwy is the way that depending on the starting crit chance level, cun and dex have variable effects.
E.g. if you had absolutely no/really low crit chance points into cun are wasted. Optimising at such a crit chance level would find it better to pump magic and ignore the whole critical hit side of things.
However, at higher crit chances, increasing the damage by 0.5 may not be as effective as increasing the critical damage by 1%. get my point? It's freaking complex!!!

Jack-Nader wrote...
To give you an example of just how much a slaughter, my staff was doing between 500 and 1000 HP damage to all the fire weak creatures in act III.

Wow. That is a lot of damage for a base staff attacks. Is this per attack?
Hm..But it sort of depends though. You see, there's nothing stopping a crit-mage from putting on some clean robes, switching staves and having fairly decent damage against fire weak enemies. The idea is that a crit-mage is versatile really, willing to switch to whatever staff will be best AND still have increased damage against it (unlike a fire mage suddenly coming across a rage demon and having to switch their staff and all their +% gear - I know, i've been there...)
And additionally, whenever an enemy (whether it be a lieutenant ranked assassin or whatever) gets staggered, you can explode it with one of the many phyiscal talents out there with added damage benefits from your build and equipment.

Modifié par mr_afk, 22 avril 2011 - 05:13 .

[Jack-Nader]

Yep, that's correct and yes that was damage per strike.

Modifié par Jack-Nader, 22 avril 2011 - 05:17 .

[mr_afk]

Jack-Nader wrote...

Yep, that's correct and yes that was damage per strike.

Oh. That would be pretty handy. But yeah, I do agree that your build is probably one of the better possible mage builds out there. It's just that it's so overdone. I mean, everybody is running around stacking on +% fire gear and raining fire balls on enemies. Most probably don't get 1000s of damage off basic staff strikes but still....

Anyway, as I mentioned i've already done an elemental build before so am trying something different for a change. Seems more fun to explode people via non-elemental means anyway; But I guess we'll see. My idea of a glass cannon is the one that can pull off the most damage (spike damage-wise). And if I'm not misinformed, the highest damage spell is the crushing prison, so hopefully with this crit-build I'll be able to clock some ridiculously high numbers and feel good about myself. haha

Well thanks for your input!

Modifié par mr_afk, 22 avril 2011 - 05:33 .

[aethernox]

Crushing Prison does damage over time, and therefore you won't be getting large spike damage. For the record, its base damage multiplier is 28.8 against staggered enemies, reduced by armor/damage resistance. Comparatively, Chain Lightning's multiplier is 37.68 against staggered, electricity-weak enemies. Hemorrhage's multiplier is 60.75 against staggered enemies, but it ignores armor and damage resistance, and is dealt over the course of two ticks.

[Jack-Nader]

Hmmm... you've actually given me an idea Mr_AFK I will crunch some numbers and work out if it is viable.

*edit.. nah it doesn't work out

Winters grasp = +5 damage per 2 attribute points
Cone of cold =  +3 damage per 2 attribute points
fireball = +1 damage per 2 attribute points
Firetstorm = +2 damage /every 1 second over 10 seconds per 2 attribute points
Spirit bolt = +4 damage per 2 attribute
Chain lightning = +3 damage per 2 attribute points

every 2 points into dexterity is a blanket +1% increase in damage output

There will be a point in time where putting points into magic becomes less beneficial than putting it into dexterity.

We reach that point for fireball when fireball hits 100 damage, spirit bolt @ 400 damage, cone of cold @ 300 damage, etc

Unfortunately even with the best staff in the game and 100 magic, that point is never reached.  Basically to sum it up... Every single point should go into magic.  Once you hit the 100 magic cap, start chucking points into dexterity.

In terms of gear, every 4% critcal chance is a blanket 2% damage increase across all spells.  The critical gear in this game is terrible.  The only item which is ok is four fingered eddy.  IYou'll only have enough gold to buy 2 top tier items + tomes so make your choice wisely   Personally, i'd take the ring of ferryman and the unblemished robes.

Modifié par Jack-Nader, 22 avril 2011 - 06:12 .

[mr_afk]

Ah bugger. I just searched and info I had remembered and it seems that Jack-Nader's build will be more suited for massive damage via crushing prison:

"Now, some interesting stuff about Crushing Prison spell. It has the highest damage factor of all talents in DA2 (upgraded Crushing Prison is *14.4, while, for example, fully upgraded Assassinate is *10.98). Its insane damage potential is much less evident due to the fact it's a DoT spell. Plus, it's always physical. Now, here's the thing: Crushing Prison still benefits from elemental staves and gear, albeit in a different (very counter-intuitive) manner than the elemental spells do. It's important to note this mechanic is CP-exclusive, other physical spells operate differently.

With elemental spells, everything is clear: if you have, for instance, a +15% spirit damage property on your staff, your Spirit Bolt will deal +15% damage (that's an over-simplification, of course). For CP damage calculations, the game takes into account: your base staff damage; any +X% dmg bonuses on the staff (yes, even if your staff deals physical, and its bonus is spirit); +X% bonuses from gear and passive talents, but only provided they correspond to your staff's element." IN1's Assorted mage notes


But yeah, basically that would mean that it favours an elemental build with stackloads of +% fire accessories on a +% fire staff. Oh well, looks like i'll just have to be content with Haemorrhaging people - I suppose a haemorrhage critting off an enemy which has been staggered, hex of tormented, and wounding arrowed could be interesting. But yeah, I don't feel so bad now, knowing that it's DoT. Haha Thanks!

Jack-Nader wrote...

Hmmm... you've actually given me an idea Mr_AFK I will crunch some numbers and work out if it is viable.

Glad to be of service. Btw, please can you paralysing prison an upgraded hex of tormented enemy (and if it's not too much trouble, wounding arrow it too)??
I want a bench mark to aim at.  hahaha (just joking, you don't have to if it's too much effort )

Modifié par mr_afk, 22 avril 2011 - 06:08 .

[Jack-Nader]

I don't have sebastian

[rumination888]

If you wear +crit damage items, then dexterity becomes better than magic at certain points. For example, with 50% crit damage and 100 base damage, alternating between dex and magic is better than full magic. At 100% crit damage, the point where you should alternate between dex and magic is 50 base damage.

social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/305/index/6860447/4

Modifié par rumination888, 22 avril 2011 - 06:23 .

[mr_afk]

Jack-Nader wrote...

I don't have sebastian

Ah, don't worry about it. He's a douche anyway. 

Jack-Nader wrote...
You'll only have enough gold to buy 2 top tier items + tomes so make your choice wisely

But what if I horde a collection of potions? Haha I've been farming potions in a vain attempt to make some money/be cool. By the end of the game I should at least have several sovereigns-worth but yeah, I'll probably have to make some tough decisions. If I actually never touch elemental spells I might actually be better off without the robes/ring but avoiding all the elemental spells would severely hinder my ability to capitalise on weaknesses and CCCs. Now i just need to figure out if the robes/ring are worth it if I only use lightning and ice.... 

rumination888 wrote...

If you wear +crit damage items, then dexterity becomes better than magic at certain points. For example, with 50% crit damage and 100 base damage, alternating between dex and magic is better than full magic. At 100% crit damage, the point where you should alternate between dex and magic is 50 base damage.

social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/305/index/6860447/4

I thought so! That gives me an idea..
Nope, how sad. Optimising for dexterity with 43.5 base damage, 80% crit damage, and 31% crit chance shows that damage-wise it's better to remain at those magic levels than to increase crit chance. Probably because my base damage is still so low. But thanks for your input, it'll give me something to consider when I level up some more

Modifié par mr_afk, 22 avril 2011 - 06:49 .

[Jack-Nader]

you wont get over 100 base. It is not possible unless you have some method of removing the cap

[Jack-Nader]

Mr_Afk... What is the minimum number of gear required to boost critical damage from 50% to 100%?

[aethernox]

Mages can't get more than 93 base damage within the confines of the leveling system, to be precise.