195 réponses à ce sujet

[mr_afk]

Jack-Nader wrote...

Mr_Afk... What is the minimum number of gear required to boost critical damage from 50% to 100%?

Ummm... from the brief scan I once did for potential high-level gear there isn't a lot of non-rogue restricted items.
The max I got was ~44%. As I was only looking at unique items perhaps high leveled generic rogue gear may help.

The only glove is the bloody butchers (+3%) 
boots are Worn Leather (+5%)
chestpieces are around (+13%)
seven deadly cinch (+9%)
etched ring (+9%)
and one of the other rings (~+5%)

If you have the dead space dlc items you might get a little higher but it's not very good really. Basically the problem lies in the fact that the stealth boots (+21%) are locked to rogues only.

Modifié par mr_afk, 22 avril 2011 - 07:02 .

[rumination888]

Point. Missed.

[mr_afk]

rumination888 wrote...

Point. Missed.

Haha me or Jack-Nader?
I understood your point, I was just answering the question?

Basically, with a critical damage of ~80% pretty easy to achieve at some point above 50 base damage it might become more beneficial to pump dex than magic. Not a very complicated point really...

[rumination888]

Jack-Nader

[mr_afk]

rumination888 wrote...

Jack-Nader

Ah. Fair enough.
Btw, how would you calculate whether it's better to pump magic, cunning or dex?
I've forgotten how to do three variables at once - I know you do it holding one constant then the other..and then you have to do some algebraic twiddling around.. actually, it's coming back to me.

I'll go try and figure out a formula to use (unless you want to just give it to me so i don't have to hurt my brain?)

Edit: I can safely say that I have forgotten all the maths I once knew. I am starting to doubt if such a formula is even possible to determine..
I came up with something horrendous like this:
100 hits = (base staff dmg+(0.5)mag)(100-(dex-10)) + (base staff dmg+(0.5)mag)+(base staff dmg+(0.5)mag)((50+cun)(0.01))(100-(dex-10))

and there's nothing on earth that's going to make me want to manipulate that formula, even if it isn't actually that complex: 100 hits = (dmg)(100-crit chance)+(crit dmg)(crit chance)

where,
dmg = base staff dmg + (0.5)mag
crit chance = dex-10
crit dmg = dmg + (dmg)(0.01(50+cun))

Stuff it, i'll just dump things into excel like i've been doing before...

Modifié par mr_afk, 22 avril 2011 - 07:36 .

[Jack-Nader]

Point not missed, hence why I asked about crit gear. All my playthroughs I have seen SFA of it. Nowhere near enough to justify ditching elemental damage equipment for critical gear and then pumping dexterity.

[rumination888]

Jack-Nader wrote...

Point not missed, hence why I asked about crit gear. All my playthroughs I have seen SFA of it. Nowhere near enough to justify ditching elemental damage equipment for critical gear and then pumping dexterity.

This is what you wrote:

Jack-Nader wrote...

Hmmm... you've actually given me an idea Mr_AFK I will crunch some numbers and work out if it is viable.

*edit.. nah it doesn't work out

Winters grasp = +5 damage per 2 attribute points
Cone of cold =  +3 damage per 2 attribute points
fireball = +1 damage per 2 attribute points
Firetstorm = +2 damage /every 1 second over 10 seconds per 2 attribute points
Spirit bolt = +4 damage per 2 attribute
Chain lightning = +3 damage per 2 attribute points

every 2 points into dexterity is a blanket +1% increase in damage output

There will be a point in time where putting points into magic becomes less beneficial than putting it into dexterity.

We reach that point for fireball when fireball hits 100 damage, spirit bolt @ 400 damage, cone of cold @ 300 damage, etc

Unfortunately
even with the best staff in the game and 100 magic, that point is never
reached.  Basically to sum it up... Every single point should go into
magic.  Once you hit the 100 magic cap, start chucking points into
dexterity.

In terms of gear, every 4% critcal chance is a blanket
2% damage increase across all spells.  The critical gear in this game
is terrible.  The only item which is ok is four fingered eddy.  IYou'll
only have enough gold to buy 2 top tier items + tomes so make your
choice wisely   Personally, i'd take the ring of ferryman and the
unblemished robes.

The summary I gave(its the exact same summary I gave in that other thread) is a condensed version of what you wrote that also takes into account critical damage. That was my point. Whether or not 100 base damage is achievable at 100 magic has no bearing on the actual point.

[Iyashi]

Jack-Nader wrote...

Point not missed, hence why I asked about crit gear. All my playthroughs I have seen SFA of it. Nowhere near enough to justify ditching elemental damage equipment for critical gear and then pumping dexterity.

Is it even possible to achieve 100 magic in one playthrough?

[Jack-Nader]

Iyashi wrote...

Jack-Nader wrote...

Point not missed, hence why I asked about crit gear. All my playthroughs I have seen SFA of it. Nowhere near enough to justify ditching elemental damage equipment for critical gear and then pumping dexterity.

Is it even possible to achieve 100 magic in one playthrough?

yes. 

[mr_afk]

Iyashi wrote...

Is it even possible to achieve 100 magic in one playthrough?

At level 24 you already have 24*3=72 points
Given that the base magic starts at 13 this means that you already have 85 points in magic
As you can get ~20 points from tomes/the fade this effectively means that not including +attribute gear, you can reach 100 points. As you can get more than 11 additional points from equipment (rune of valiance) getting to 100 magic is not only possible but quite likely if you opt for the pure magic build (all points into magic and using vitality for blood pool).

Just in case you wanted a more detailed explanation than the one Jack-Nader gave 

Modifié par mr_afk, 23 avril 2011 - 06:23 .

[Jack-Nader]

mr_afk wrote...

Just in case you wanted a more detailed explanation than the one Jack-Nader gave 

Heh.  That made me chuckle

[Jack-Nader]

This might be hard to follow but here goes

Starting attributes

str 10
dex 10
mag 13
cun 11
will 12

Full Magic Build

Prebuff equipment

Sandals of the mystic +1 will ---- 20 will required
Vestments of the mystic +2 will ---- 20 will required
Staff of violition --- +3 will
Uzara's Tooth ------- +1 to all atributes
Ring of no wishes ----+1 to all attributes

Final equipment worn

Robes of unblemished cleanliness + 2 to all attributes
Gauntlets with valiance runes (+6 attributes)
Ring of the ferryman +2 magic

Points needed in will to wear final equipment = 8
Minimum number to invest in magic to reach the cap is 93 - 13 = 80 magic

Spare attribute points = 8

Final stats

str 18
dex 26 ( +16% critical chance)
magic 100
cun 19 ( +59% critical damage)
will 28

End staff : Falon din = 42 base damage
Final Damage base = 87

Using rally

1/3rd of all critical strikes will have a +25% critical damage attached due to a 10 second duration with 30 second cooldown.


Expected damage over 100 hits =

(87 * 84) + (2/3 * 1.59 * 87 * 16) + (1/3 * 1.84 * 87 * 16) = 7308 + 1475.52 + 853.76 = 9637.28 Damage over 100 hits

+81% fire damage through apparel



Critical chance build

Seven Deadly cinch
+2% critical chance
+9% critical damage

Etched Ring
+4% critical chance
+9% critical damage

Valiance runes +6 Attributes

Total critical damage with rally is +49%

Damage base of 50 required

Staff = 42 damage base, Robes of cleanliness= +1, Valiance = +3... therefore Points in magic required to reach 50 = 8
However robes of uncleanliness will require an additional 5 points to equip. Minimum points spent in magic must be 13.

final stats

str 18
dex 90 ( +80% critical chance, +6% through the 2 apparel listed above)
mag 34
cun 19 ( +59% critical damamge, +18% through the 2 apparel listed above)
wil 28

Note there will be 2 less attribute points due to not having the ring of ferryman but there maybe other gear that can offset this. For now I will go with what I know.

Damage base will be 54, 42 from staff and 12 from magic

(14 * 54) + (2/3 * 86 * 54 * 1.77) + (1/3 * 86 *54 * 1.99) = 756 + 5479.92 + 3080.52 = 9316.44

You will lose the ring of ferryman and the belt slot so total fire apparel is +53%

Damn shame!..  If only those stealth boots were not locked, you would have a working build

Modifié par Jack-Nader, 23 avril 2011 - 01:34 .

[mr_afk]

Jack-Nader wrote...

Damn shame!..  If only those stealth boots were not locked, you would have a working build

I know right! It's so lame how they decided to add class-restrictions to the best boots in the game.

Anyway, interesting calcs - hadn't really considered that a dex build to that extent would be still viable. However a mage with only 34 magic end game will probably have loads of issues with attack-score...

Another thing you might consider is the effect that heroic aura has, as a free 10% crit chance would favour the build with the higher critical damage (which in this case would be the pure magic build due to the much higher base damage).

I was pretty sure that a pure dex build won't be quite as effective as a mixed dex build so I just crunched some random stat setups and found some interesting numbers:
Modifying your dex build
str 18
dex 50 ( +40% critical chance, +6% through the 2 apparel)
mag 74 (32 from mag, 42 from staff = 74 base damage)
cun 19 ( +59% critical damamge, +18% through the 2 apparel)
wil 28

Gives you 10021.08 per 100 hits, which is actually larger than both the dex and the pure magic build (though will have less +%fire so doesn't mean too much). I'm going to try doing some optimisation for your number of stats because I think that cunning shouldn't be ignored, especially if you have a high crit chance.

From my understanding, it seems like crit chance is very useful only when your critdamage is high. As crit damage is based off your magic (base damage) and your cunning (crit multiplier) optimising for crit damage while holding crit chance at varying levels might be a possible way to optimise for the three stats.

I'll update this soon - posted this now to maybe give you some ideas incase you're still in the mood for calcs (e.g. try factoring in an upgraded heroic aura, because it's going to be on pretty much always anyway).

Modifié par mr_afk, 23 avril 2011 - 02:53 .

[mr_afk]

Update:
I just finalised crunching a whole load of numbers. I probably didn't need to (the trend was quite obvious early on) but decided to continue anyway just so it covers a larger range of values and looks fancy. I decided against uploading it as an image (even though I made it have pretty colours) but if you want to see the whole thing you can download the excel spreadsheet.

Otherwise, in summary:
Using your stats and your equipment (so leaving willpower and the minimum magic alone) I determined that the maximum dps using that crit-gear is from:
-str 18
-dex 36
-mag 88
-cun 19
-will 28
which gives 10095.84 damage over 100hits; However if you include a heoric aura the best stats are
-str 18
-dex 31
- mag 93
-cun 19
-will 28
which gives 10728.915 damage over 100 hits.

My results also showed that a build with 100 magic and 25 cun (maximum possible) gives the highest critical damage, though that's pretty obvious now thinking about it.
From some testing of cunning vs magic over a range of crit chances, it's pretty clear that cunning is less effective at boosting dps than magic and dex, so should be left at the baseline (unless you're aiming at maximising critical damage for spike damage against hex of torments or if you somehow had 100 in both magic and dex already).

Anyway, I think i've done enough number crunching for tonight, and looks like i've got my ideal attribute setup for once I move from rogue armour to robes.

edit: wait, you didn't include Four fingered eddy did you? Gah, looks like i'll have to go pull out some calcs down the road anyhow. Also, I forgot to include the effects of rally.. oh well

Modifié par mr_afk, 23 avril 2011 - 05:33 .

[Jack-Nader]

Yeh, I didn't include four fingered eddy because there just isn't enough gold unless we never buy any tomes.

219325 +1 talent
219325 +1 talent
200000 +2 attributes
200000 +2 attributes
219325 +2 or 3 attributes??
 80000 Level up potion
 90000 quanri blades

This is from the wiki.  So basically if we buy nothing we can afford 1 extra item worth 120g

Modifié par Jack-Nader, 23 avril 2011 - 05:51 .

[mr_afk]

Jack-Nader wrote...

Yeh, I didn't include four fingered eddy because there just isn't enough gold unless we never buy any tomes.

Ah, fair enough then. I'm hoping that all the runes of fortune i've been using and the potions i've been farming will make a difference, but yeah it'll be tough to afford another 100+ item...
And yeah, I like all those potions/tomes too much to skimp out on them. I've decided against buying my companions presents this round (and am not upgrading the armour of the companions I don't use often). I feel so stingy. haha

Just realised the point of your suggestion earlier (and feel somewhat stupid now - blame it on not enough sleep:whistle:)
Basically you're saying that the 25% crit damage from rally will have a much larger impact on a dex build than a high magic build. Thus a build which basically relies on the extra crit damage from rally could reliably crit and deal large amounts of damage (especially if haste/other speed items were on).
While that's all nice and all, I would actually say that such a build would be a little boring (damage-wise) because it wouldn't have the potential for really large numbers that a build with greater emphasis on magic has. With the ability for autocrits of a hex of torment I would have to say that a dex build would probably not be that ideal. I think that the attribute listing i gave just above (with reasonable crit chance compared to pure magic) would probably be the best option in that the general damage non-rally will be pretty solid and any additional damage from rally would still have a reasonable impact - plus, as critical damage hasn't been totally gimped it would be able to deal massive spike damage to hexed enemies. 
p.s. is it considered cheating if I also add an upgraded control to my rallys? (+10% crit chance) :innocent:

Anyway, I think i'm off to explode some enemies. I'm rediscovering the joys of blood magic. btw, if I were to record act 2 fights to demonstrate my mid-game rogue-armoured crit-mage build, which fights you think I should record?

Modifié par mr_afk, 23 avril 2011 - 06:08 .

[Jack-Nader]

Brekker, Xebenkeck and the nexus golem fight.  Those are the only decent fights in Act II.  Xebenkeck is probably the hardest fight in the game although it can be gimped

These are all the fights I recorded. Mostly for Grumpy benefit but you may get something out of them.

http://www.youtube.c...os?feature=mhum

BTW @ lvl 25.. the minimum required magic score to hit 100% attack is 57

Modifié par Jack-Nader, 23 avril 2011 - 06:20 .

[Jack-Nader]

I actually removed hex of torment + deathhex from Merrill. The only place where you want to use the spell is vs boss creatures. Towards the end of the game they have such high magic resistance the hexes only last a few seconds. It's just not worth 6 talents.

[mr_afk]

Oh cool. I take it you meant: http://www.youtube.c...r/JackNad3r#g/u?
That link linked to my profile with its one crappy quality dragon speedrun haha. I think I saw one or two of your videos before, I always found that all-ranged party of yours amusing. And sure, I'll definately record those fights then. 

That 100% attack would be including a heroic aura right? 

Jack-Nader wrote...

I actually removed hex of torment + deathhex from Merrill. The only place where you want to use the spell is vs boss creatures. Towards the end of the game they have such high magic resistance the hexes only last a few seconds. It's just not worth 6 talents.

Ah.. forgot about enemy magic resistance. It's a pity because early game those spells are amazing (horror for CC and hex of torment for spike damage). I'll probably just change my late game setup a little and maybe just get good at walking bombs etc.

Modifié par mr_afk, 23 avril 2011 - 06:46 .

[Jack-Nader]

Yeh I think heroic aura is included.

[Muffildy]

there are some poisons to reduce enemy magic resist.
Im in act 3 now, and im becoming dissappointed in my build because of game mechanics, it seems as though every time i level up my build gets weaker because it depends a great deal on defence and every level up my armor and dodge get lower. Hmm my critical chance and other stats also seem to get lower per level up as well. Down to only 1% crit chance.
It seems as though it would be best if i could cap my level at say 15, or maybe i should just download a mod that upgrades my armor as i level up.
Anyone else somewhat annoyed that every characters abilities are different for the same scores of attributes? Like merril with the same cunning will have much lower dodge than my character. Doesnt make any sense at all.
Would be nice if i could cast offense spells with healing aura on; really silly of them to restrict a character so much.
Kind of feel like a whole lot of the magic talents are almost useless, like for example the walking bomb spell - awesome, but its upgrade to be 20% contagious is next to pointless since 90% of the time the 10 second duration will expire on the ones who contract it or they all died in the first explosion. Woulda been better if it was reduced cooldown or increased area effect of explosion.

As far as your dps arguement is going, good info; though i wonder how any of those builds survive more than a few seconds against anything. The zombie dps companions i drag along with the invincible mage die like 3 or so times per fight since their defence/armor scores are terrible.

Xebenkek fight was fairly easy with my build - had more trouble with the golem fight because i dont have much defence against magic.

[mr_afk]

Well if you think about it, the faster you kill enemies the less damage they get to do to you. CC coupled with fast kills means that fights are over pretty fast and nobody gets hurt. So far all my high dps glass cannon builds are pretty successful based on that premise. Atm I'm not brave enough to attempt an all-ranged party like Jack-Nader's so use a warrior (fenris) to act as a meat shield/stagger machine allowing my three ranged dps party members have a free run at the enemies. Normally nobody dies unless they do something stupid (e.g. anders running to melee range and picking a fight with a group of enemies).
I'll post up a compilation of some random fights demonstrating this soon.
The arcane poison might be useful, I'll check it out when I get access to it, thanks for the tip.

And yeah, defense and armour will drop as you level meaning that in order to maintain levels you have to continue to equip better armour and pump cunning. If you think about it, this game mechanic sorta is necessary and makes some sense - if your armour and defense remained at the same % levels it would render getting better equipment as you level redundant. Also, the amount of armour and defense actually remains the same, it's just the ability to defend against the attacks of higher leveled enemies that decreases (the % value).
I'm not sure what you mean by merrill having a lower defense score while having the same amount of cunning.. does she not have an arcane shield on or have less +defense gear relatively? Because the base attributes should convey a set bonus across all characters (though I'm not too sure how the cunning-defense mechanism works). Your critical chance/damage should also remain the same irrespective of your level.

I think that if you respecced your character so it didn't rely on defense so much and pumped constitution instead you'll find the game a lot easier. Mages aren't meant to be getting into melee fights in the first place so all defense will do is help evade the odd arrow (which really should be aimed at your tank if you manage aggro properly). As defense does nothing to help evade enemy abilities I would think that constitution would be more relevant for an invincible mage - as it will help your durability against both abilities and normal attacks.
Since you're using a mod that removes item requirements, the best invincible tank build would probably be a spirit healer/bloodmage with every point into constitution (while wearing the highest armour +hp gear). But as that would be ridiculously boring damage-wise, just find a compromise and pump your magic to respectable levels as well and you'll be fine. As for healing aura, you really don't need to have it on all the time - have it off when you want to deal damage and turn it on when you or your party members get injured. I think if you follow some of the spirit healer guides out there they'll explain good strategies to deal damage while specced as a healer.

Are you playing on nightmare? Because I don't know anyone who can say that the Xebenkek fight was easy - though I guess it's certainly managable if you approach it the right way (did it pretty well the first time I tried it with my 2h warrior). Anyway, glad you find our dps discussion interesting (wouldn't call it an argument since we both agree on most things) and good luck with whatever you decide to do with your build!

Modifié par mr_afk, 24 avril 2011 - 06:50 .

[Muffildy]

Well, example:
Hawke defence 838 with 48 cunning
hawke 70/50/30 without battle synergy or arcane shield
hawke 80/65/45 with synergy
Hawke 80/80/60 with arcane shield & battle synergy

Merril defence 1964 with 60 cunning
merril defence 80/60/40 with without battle synergy or arcane shield
merril defence 80/75/55 with synergy
merril defence 80/80/60 with synergy and shield

So as you can see, im pretty sure they capped her defence maximum at 60% vs boss because she should have been up to 70% if she was gaining the same percents as hawke. Still rather odd that hawke has around half the value of defence and less cunning, but still gets to the same dodge percents.

The problem with turning healing aura on and off is that it stops working because of a bug.
The bug is that the healing percent stacks every time you change zone with it on, if you turn it off then you lose that bug and so get the normal healing percent which would be all well and good except that the normal healing percent is 150% of almost nothing. So instead of my character healing around 70 hit points every 2 seconds, i heal around 3 hit points per 2 seconds which is just about pointless. They really ought to have made healing aura heal a percent of hit points per tick rather than increase the very low percent regeneration.

As for the xebenkek fight, all i had to to is kill the 2 abominations then kill xeb herself, then the knight that spawns and then finally the rages.

[mr_afk]

I feel somewhat bad not knowing exactly what you mean by those three numbers.. is that the defence against critters, lieutenants and bosses? Because yeah, I think you're right. I know that they capped it at 80 in general so I suppose they must have just capped it lower against bosses. I don't really use defence that much though, have you noticed much of a difference with 80% defence? Even if most enemies would be missing a lot with their normal attacks all those pesky assassins etc would still be able to stab you right?

Haha and are you saying you purposely exploit that healing aura bug? doesn't it make you ridiculously overpowered? 
Anyway, if you check this health regen analysis it seems that +health regen does work on a % hit points manner, just that it's quite a low percentage. This means that increasing your constitution (health pool) should actually increase the health it heals each tick.

[tonnactus]

mr_afk wrote...

Are you playing on nightmare? Because I don't know anyone who can say that the Xebenkek fight was easy -

I dont know...
With fire and spirit resist runes it seems easy...(combined with retreating out of the room where the demons would ambush your party)
Only the revenant,who deals physical damage was actually dangerous.