195 réponses à ce sujet

[Irish Porkchopp]

Cool idea DW. Have you played it yet? You could give Merrill Death Hex as well, so you could have one up all the time. I'd like to see your rogue gear idea too.

[mr_afk]

DW2511 wrote...

Hey guys, after I tested my own Tank mage builds and seeing that people in this thread seem to prefer crit damage over survivability, I figured why not find a way to combine those two in a single build? How about getting almost 100% crit damage during half your time on the battlefield, 75% armor, 80% evade, 20% in all resistances, 300 hp, +100 health regen, 14% dmg res, 50% magic res? Impossible? Behold the DEATH HEX-ELEMENTAL SHIELD-CUNNING combo.

If you are willing to step away from pure nuking for a minute and instead rely on STAGGER dmg and critical staff attacks to generate offense all the while being untouchable and perform the healer/debilitator/cc/buffer role with maximum efficiency, this is the build for you.

End game attributes should look like this:

41 STR( min 32 to wear the Helm of 1000 Battles and the Gauntlets of Ser Maura, if you find a way to prebuff STR using an ACT 2 Boots item, do so and save up to 6-7 points)
40MAG(not as low as it seems. STAGGER dmg is still through the roof, and that's what you're counting on. Attack values with NO +Att items are still 90/75/60, good enough for your crits to land consistently. You can get it near 100 if you invest in items.
50 CUN (good for 90% crit dmg. Items or the Tiger's Tail shoot it above 100%)
41 CON (300 hp with Urzara's Tooth alone)

Basic strategy is have Death Hex mapped, cast it on your enemy of choice, obliterate him with staff attacks for 15 seconds(dmg= basic staff dmg*(1,9 + 0,25) per hit GUARANTEED), then spend the next 15 seconds roaming the field for STAGGERS, lockdowns, healing and hasting. Rinse and repeat.

I have an alternate build that focuses on Rogue gear and a DEX/CUN investment. If you're interested I'll post that as well.

Hmm interesting concept but i'm not sure if it'll work. As pointed out by Jack-Nader earlier on this thread, the increased magic resistance of the late-game enemies/bosses(which are the only enemies worth hexing) means that the duration of hexes becomes greatly decreased (a LOT less than 15sec). This reduces the viability of a build based around it - sure, if you can spare the points it might help boost a little spike damage but in general there will be no point using it against random critters (already dead in 1-3 staff attacks) and no point using against bosses (few seconds of extra dmg). So my original plan to just min-max critical dmg won't work and your build probably won't work either.

Also, I think you'll find that if you do some calcs, critical damage-wise you'll be better chucking all those points that you placed into cunning into magic instead. While high critcal damage percentages look nice on paper, the actual critical damage (base damage+base damage*critical damage%) usually is higher by investing in a higher base-damage, unless your critical damage% is high from equipment and your base damage is already very high. Due to your lack of focus on dex your crit chance will be really low so besides from the few seconds from death hex you won't be critting anyway. So dps-wise AND spikedamage-wise you'll be better just pumping magic - and a full magic tank build is effectively just the standard tank build if I'm not wrong.

There is also an issue with attack - as an attack less than 100% will not only deal glancing blows against critters but will have a much higher chance of glancing blows against bosses (because attack drops ~20-40%).

In terms of actual game-play, as you can get by with an armoured mage via utilising merely CCCs I suppose you could get by with this build as well (though it probably will be less effective). Tbh, I don't see the huge difference between this and a tank mage. The tank build is definately a very viable option and with your help I think I can fix up the first half of my guide so it becomes a guide for both a full game armoured mage build and a rogue armoured crit mage. (I actually didn't know so many people had already used such builds - making a guide for this build is almost unneccessary!)


So sorry to somewhat burst your bubble, but I don't really think that the build will work as well as you think. 
A crit-mage build is possible for a tank mage if you basically use all the crit accessories etc and thus increase your critical damage and critical chance, but in general your stats will look exactly like a normal tank mage build (more beneficial to pump magic than boost dexterity - and cunning is useless). This is actually a viable strategy for a physical/spirit tank build (which may have the advantage of +%physical from warrior armour), however an elemental approach probably would be easier and just as effective (if not more).
 

Irish Porkchopp wrote...
I have to say I'm little disappointed so far that Bioware didn't build more flexibity into the classes at this level.  But that is a discussion for another time.  I'm still holding out hope that a crit mage can compete at higher levels! 

The crit-mage is already competitive at level 15 (using the stats I calculated)!!
It's basically the best method to create a spirit/physical based mage. So as long as you focus mainly on bloodmagic (haemorrhage), arcane (crushing prison), spirit (spirit bolt and walking bomb cos it's awesome), and maybe primal for chain lightning, the crit-mage will probably be the best mage build for maximising dps!!

If you focus on fire spells and staves you will be better off with a pure magic elemental setup (using robes). However, given that there are only two fire spells and two ice spells, elemental setups will usually have a disadvantage in the spells they can use - because a crit-mage setup will outperform pure magic setups at casting non-elemental spells. I hope that makes sense.

I'll put up a spell list/guide for a phyisical/spirit setup in a bit. I was planning on experimenting a little more first but I suppose I can do a rough guide. Anyhow, as long as you follow that sort of spell usage (though you can do decent damage with any spell still) you can be safely satisfied in knowing that your using a build which provides the maximum damage output. And I realised just then that a crit-bloodmage spirit healer build might be possible - as long as you don't want to use any force mage spells the +10 con would allow you to have even greater damage outputs!

But yeah, I don't really like all those limitations out there. They shouldn't have put class-restrictions on top of attribute requirements - as those requirements act as a form of class restriction anyway. With the stealth boots the crit mage would be unbeatable- waaay better than any pure magic build. As it is they are pretty similar, just better at different things. Hope that clears things up haha

Modifié par mr_afk, 30 avril 2011 - 05:24 .

[DW2511]

Yup, tested it in ACT 3. Pretty much as planned. The biggest positive surprise was the following sequence on an Elite/Boss: DEATH HEX - SHIELD BASH - PAR. HEMORRAGE. Boom. The fun part for me is that Normals and Elites using physical attacks can't touch you. You have an 80% chance to evade/glancing blow, and if you do get hit damage is reduced by 90%. That means enemies dmg per basic attack against you is only 2% of their full basic, since the Helm makes you iimmune to crits as well.

I tried a party with Death Hex Merril, CUN Fenris with Might and it's upgrade on, and CUN semi tank Isabela. Death Hex*2 and Haste generate Staggering(pun intended) dmg numbers. Orsino down in a minute or so. Didn't use a stopwatch, but it was 5 times faster than my previous record.

DEX/CUN build uses FM instead of SH, due to Fortitude requirements. If you get the Etched Ring, you can keep SH.

Basically replace the 6 SH points with FotM, Maker's Hammer, Unshakeable, TB, Pull, Edge, GR. You still have 2 skills for Haste or something else.

End game attributes:

29 dex( or whatever dex is required by the top rogue gear you put on, crit chance is not that important)
40-52MAG
50-62CUN
41-53CON

As you see, this build saves you 12 points to distribute between MAG,CUN and CON, depending on what you deem lacking.

The negative is that your armor rating is back to human levels, but you get more spells for CC and STAGGER dmg.
50

[mr_afk]

Ummm.. weren't you able to get by with such sequences before changing to the cunning build? Because seriously, try doing some calculations. Or read through some of the previous discussions we've had on this thread. ALL the maths points at higher dps and spike damage (e.g. real critical damage) from a pure magic build or a crit mage build with awesome gear. In all the cases pumping magic to the highest while leaving cunning at the lowest gives the highest critical damage (increasing 0.5 base damage does more than increasing 1% crit damage). So your cunning tank build should actually perform worse than your original pure magic tank build.

What gear did you have equipped?

and what rogue armour did you have in mind for your dex/cun build?

Modifié par mr_afk, 30 avril 2011 - 05:31 .

[DW2511]

In theory, I agree, but testing it in ACT 3 and on Orsino in particular proved extremely effective, if not overpowered. Granted, Death Hex Merril, Haste and the -15% magic res poison played their part. If you time your Hex and a STAGGER - Hemo combo by anticipating the STAG effect beforehand , damage is phenomenal.

As for the similarities to the pure mage Tank, this is actually a much better tank due to the max evade.

More testing is needed, for sure, but the fact remains that a CUN based party with Merrill and 2 Hexes along with Haste seems like the ultimate damage party.

BTW, Voracity and an item can boost your attack rating to 100/80/68-70.

Modifié par DW2511, 30 avril 2011 - 06:04 .

[mr_afk]

DW2511 wrote...

In theory, I agree, but testing it in ACT 3 and on Orsino in particular proved extremely effective, if not overpowered. Granted, Death Hex Merril, Haste and the -15% magic res poison played their part. If you time your Hex and a STAGGER - Hemo combo by anticipating the STAG effect beforehand , damage is phenomenal.

As for the similarities to the pure mage Tank, this is actually a much better tank due to the max evade.

More testing is needed, for sure, but the fact remains that a CUN based party with Merrill and 2 Hexes along with Haste seems like the ultimate damage party.

BTW, Voracity and an item can boost your attack rating to 100/80/68-70.

Hm, could you edit out my quote? it's making me have to scroll down a lot and you don't really need to read it all again since it's just above. THanks!

Anyway, that was another concept I was considering. While enemy magic resistance goes up, arcane poison may make it worthwhile to have a death hex in the team - though I wouldn't go as far as to base an entire build on it!
If possible, go try a full magic setup (all points into cunning going into magic) with the same spells etc and compare the damage difference. If you found that fight really easy/saw large numbers I can almost guarantee you'll be pleasantly suprised.


p.s. Large defense scores aren't actually that useful! I don't understand why people can't seem to bear the idea of a mage been mostly ranged and not engaging in melee combat/having to dodge attacks in the first place...
I mean, if I can get by really easily on a glass cannon build with no armour, no defense and no hp, why would there be a need for a build with huge armour and constitution to pump defense? it's truly confusing

Also I sincerely doubt that your cunning tank build could compete with any of the glass cannon builds damage-wise. Unless the game lied and magic isn't related to increasing damage 

Modifié par mr_afk, 30 avril 2011 - 05:49 .

[DW2511]

mr_afk wrote...

Ummm.. weren't you able to get by with such sequences before changing to the cunning build? Because seriously, try doing some calculations. Or read through some of the previous discussions we've had on this thread. ALL the maths points at higher dps and spike damage (e.g. real critical damage) from a pure magic build or a crit mage build with awesome gear. In all the cases pumping magic to the highest while leaving cunning at the lowest gives the highest critical damage (increasing 0.5 base damage does more than increasing 1% crit damage). So your cunning tank build should actually perform worse than your original pure magic tank build.

What gear did you have equipped?

and what rogue armour did you have in mind for your dex/cun build?

Ofcourse I was, this is just a different idea to maximise spike damage. Your math is correct but does it factor in max crit damage on a STAGGER/Hemo Combo? If it does then I wasn't paying attention, sorry. From just eyeballing it, 110% crit dmg with that combo generates more than when in MAG/DEX build. Then again, this is just circumstantial observation, nothing more.

My DEX/CUN FM/BM build hasn't been tested yet, I don't have rogue gear in my inventory to attempt a respec. I have to play through some late ACT2/early ACT3 to gather some, I was focused on STR builds up until now.

[mr_afk]

DW2511 wrote...

Ofcourse I was, this is just a different idea to maximise spike damage. Your math is correct but does it factor in max crit damage on a STAGGER/Hemo Combo? If it does then I wasn't paying attention, sorry. From just eyeballing it, 110% crit dmg with that combo generates more than when in MAG/DEX build. Then again, this is just circumstantial observation, nothing more.

My DEX/CUN FM/BM build hasn't been tested yet, I don't have rogue gear in my inventory to attempt a respec. I have to play through some late ACT2/early ACT3 to gather some, I was focused on STR builds up until now.

Based on my understanding of spell mechanics,

Paralysing haemorrhage deals:

((6.75*base dmg)*900%)+((6.75*base dmg)*900%)*(crit dmg%)     on a critical hit off a staggered enemy

As the spell automatically reduces enemy damage resistance to 0% this renders the damage resistance reduction capabilities from death hexs redundant.


Anyhow based on your available stats and holding base staff dmg constant:
Your build with 40 mag and 50 cun (15 base dmg and 90% crit dmg) gives

((6.75*15)*900%)+((6.75*15)*900%)*(90%) = 1731.375 

compared to 

Magic build with 70mag and 20 cun (not sure what the lowest possible cun is for you) which gives

((6.75*30)*900%)+((6.75*30)*900%)*(60%) = 2916


edit: wait, when did you get 110% crit dmg? either way:
((6.75*15)*900%)+((6.75*15)*900%)*(110%) = 1913.625    still less. sorry!


As you can see, the magic build will do 1.7 times more damage.
While including base staff damage will reduce this difference the magic build will continue to outperform the cunning build, even with base staff damages of ~50.
-------------

Also I may have said it but i'm not sure - crit damage (not the percentage) is always increased more by pumping magic than pumping cunning. This means that aside from the base requirements to equip armour (which will effectively increase the average crit dmg% per cunning) it's always best to leave cunning at the lowest possible and get magic higher to min-max critical damage.

To min-max dps however, dexterity joins the equation such that with certain builds (namely the crit mage build) it becomes better to pump dex than to pump magic in order to increase dps. At lower base damage levels it actually isn't beneficial to pump dex at all - so that's why for your tank build (low magic) I would recommend pumping only magic and not even any dex.

If your hex of torments are working fine on nightmare (?) I would firstly have to have words with Jack-Nader for misleading me as well as maybe endorsing the viability of a min-maxed critical damage build (e.g. lots of +%critical damage gear, enough cunning to equip it, and all the rest into magic) as such a build when put together with hex of torments could preform pretty well. Though given the way that it seems a little risky to rely totally on hex of torments, a build with some emphasis on crit chance and dps would probably be better in the long run.

p.s. thanks for removing that quote, you're awesome!

Modifié par mr_afk, 30 avril 2011 - 06:25 .

[DW2511]

Your math is good, so I stand corrected on that, thank you. Maybe it was a one-time occurrence, dunno.

Maybe it's my fault for not being clearer, but my builds(well, this one at least) aim to increase functionality and spike damage not just for the mage, but the ENTIRE PARTY. A CUN Fenris with upgraded Might, a CUN Isabela and maybe a Tiger's Tail Merrill are more productive with a Death Hex Build. So, while a glass cannon can outdamage my build straight up, how will the total party damage compare? If you have math to calculate that, I'll bow to you, Internet style!

As for defense and survivability in a mage, we're not the only ones who try these things in game. I can BM/FM nuke all day with 100hp as well, but not many NM players can, especially first-timers. I make these tank builds with the general populace in mind
Plus, a tank mage Hawke just feels more hero material to me. Glancing Blow on you during an assasin attack? Yes,please! Furthermore, less time running around evading stuff equals more time actual DPS. Check one of my previous posts about what DPS trylly is to me, not how the game calculates it.

Seriously, you don't find a mage who can take punishment better than Aveline even a whee bit compelling? Heck, with a different spell setup I could try a solo game!

[mr_afk]

Awesome!! I can get a 'bow, internet style'?! That just made it worth it for me to stay up really late when I really should be sleeping 

Anyhow, just to do a quick cheap way to get my bow -
Firstly, if the death hexs work properly against bosses (e.g. ~15 secs) then it is definately worth investing in. However, of you think about it - there's absolutely nothing stopping a glass cannon build or party setup to get it too!! This means that a glass cannon hawke/merrill death hex can also 'benefit the entire party'. Infact, with higher critical damages from both hawke and my entire party (My whole party are pretty much all glass cannons) I should be able to easily outperform a tanking high constitution hawke and glass cannon party due to the extra dps companion.

On a more serious note, you do realise that what I said earlier about hawke's critical damage applies to all the party members right?? min-maxing for crit-damage with your party members would involve solely pumping their base stat - e.g. a strength fenris will have a higher crit-damage (and thus spike damage) than a cunning fenris. this also applies to the rogues out there (so I may have to do some number crunching in regards to Arelex's attribute recommendations - as I would have thought that pumping dex very high would be the better route to go than pumping cunning...)

Thus my current setup with fenris on very high strength and a very high magic merrill and anders will probably outperform your party setup - especially if i setup a death hex for the whole party to capitalise on (as they should all have higher crit damages than your cunning builds).

That wasn't really maths per se, but do I still get an internet bow? 

Haha but yeah, I know what you mean. When I did my early game armoured mage build it was a LOT easier than my more glassy pure magic/willpower build. It was great to not get one-shotted or knocked around all the time.

However, once knockdowns are no longer a concern, I have a fascination with large numbers. Hence my high damage setups which I always use. It makes the gameplay more...risky, exciting. If you do things right you win convincingly. If you fail...well you die and have to reload. It's still more preferable than been the last character standing and having to run around kiting the last few enemies to death (I know, I've been there).
Well anyhow, it was nice discussing all these ideas etc. with you. Sometimes I wish there wasn't always so much maths involved though (You might be surprised but I actually rather dislike maths.. never was much good at it in school. and horrible repressed memories of trying to learn things that are way too complex).

I'll fix up that section on the armoured mage guide later. since it seems like a pretty decent build for first time players as you said. Well, I think i'm off now. (Well...I'll probably hang around even after saying that cos i'm somewhat addicted to these forums.)

Look out here for my Xerbejaehkjsnd run i'm going to do soon!
Hopefully i'll be able to glass cannon my way through it in record time

Modifié par mr_afk, 30 avril 2011 - 07:11 .

[DW2511]

Hmm, all good points, thanks for clearing that up. A couple of things, though:

Death Hex is a 6 skill investment. Tough to just add it, a pure offense build will have to suffer a rehaul. Do you have 6 skills in your build you consider expendable? If it was just 1 skill, everyone and Gamlen would get it. A Death Hex mage will probably end up more of a debilitator than a straight up damager.

Is the STR/dmg correlation linear after a certain STR threshold? Haven't checked.

As I said before, I'm more of an 'outlast them' than 'nuk' em' guy. Let's just say I hate reloading. If I die in the High Dragon fight after 20 mins, I'm not immediately retrying. Unless I'm just testing or I haven't beaten the fight on NM yet, I'm going on hard. If you've done it once, no need to waste all that time again. Maybe it's me, but were I actually Hawke and speccing myself, I'd never opt for a glass cannon/paper tiger build. Getting the unstoppable achievement on NM was hard, and only viable in ACT 3 God mode with all party members built to last. For me, anyway.

You got your Internerd™ bow, although it's just a fancy name for 'I'm taking a bow in front of my screen and you're taking my word for it', lol.

[mr_afk]

yay I got my bow!

And yeahh, I probably wouldn't waste it on hawke tbh. I usually leave merrill as the hex-er/debuffer.
It's not so much that my build has so many offensive spells - it's more that I have so many crowd control spells. I pretty much rely on CCs to keep my characters from suffering too much damage/allowing them to deal lots of unopposed damage. Things like pull of the abyss and gravitic ring are godly in that regard.

I think that those 6 points are well worth it for the first and second acts (for merrill) but i'm still not convinced that it will work well against high magic resistant enemies. The idea behind my crit mage setup is that I shouldn't even need to rely on a death hex to get critical hits - and those crits still pack a large punch. But yeah, we'll see how it goes late game.

Okay, in general until you reach 100 base damage (pretty much impossible given that attributes cap at 100) you should pump the base stat for the best critical damage and dps. The base stat will always increase the critical damage by the most such that a mage build focusing on crit damage would have 100 magic, ~20cunning late game.

However, with a higher critical damage% from items/abilities, it becomes worth it to invest in dexterity instead of the base stat for higher dps. This means that a late game fenris build (with all his buffs etc giving up really high crit dmg), it may be better dps-wise to have a strength/dex build. Note that in all the cases (besides a rogue hawke), cunning is only to be pumped for getting requirements (of if you're min-maxing crit dmg) as dex and whatever base stat increase damage by more.

Hmm I guess each person has their preferences and playstyle. Feeling invincible could be nice I suppose. In my case I like optimising stats (only time I like maths) such that I can know that 'I am currently dealing the maximum dmg possible'. haha. It sorta sucks that the game mechanics are so confusing/not really explained properly. It'll be so much easier if we had access to the actual damage formulas (so we can factor in attack etc)

Modifié par mr_afk, 30 avril 2011 - 08:06 .

[DW2511]

Then imagine what my DEX/CUN FM/BM Death Hex can do for you in terms of CC, hehe.

Yup, little innocent Merrill is best specced as a quasi-tank BM Necromancer... Go figure...

Thanks for clearing the game math for me. I get bored reverse engineering and intrapolating things, probably because I had enough of those way back during my Mech. Eng. Phd... Takes a fresh and willing mind, I guess...

Hey! I'm all about optimising stats as well. Defensive ones. Clearing all mob waves first and dealing with the big boys later nets you more total XP! How's that for maximising? You can get a whole 1-2 extra talents in your build. Not gonna play like that with a glass cannon, haha.

Note: I avoided quotes much to your pleasure and much to everyone else's 'Why's this guy using two line paragraphs for?'


EDIT- You should see my Buffbot build. The challenge is for Hawke to be the most important person in Thedas without himself ever personally killing anyone. No MAG, no WP. Just for kicks, leaving him on tactics and controlling other party members myself. I can wear Warrior,Rogue AND Mage Armor if I want,lol.

Hmm, mabe I should start a 'Crazy builds' thread...

Modifié par DW2511, 30 avril 2011 - 08:39 .

[Irish Porkchopp]

You know you love the maths!
Where is this Xerbejaehkjsnd battle I keep hearing about?

[mr_afk]

Sorry...I think I need to go home and rethink my life. (star wars quote incase you didn't recognise it - though it's impossible not to and I guess I already am home haha)
But yeah, no Xerberkeck anytime soon. I can complete it - but it's painfully long with me having to resort to cheap tactics which does not go well in terms of a demonstration video. With Jack-Nader doing it in 34seconds (though he won't reveal how<_<) I probably will have to level up some more and go get some better equipment.

If i manage to get myself bothered enough maybe i'll have a few more goes at it at my current level but I don't know.. I can't kill rage demons very well and can't defend against them with my current glass cannon setups. Since the crit-mage setup isn't really designed for elemental spells (like cold) the few tries I had at it were slightly fail. Or maybe it was the whole only having 14 constitution that killed me. Hmm.

Just imagine big explosions and really awesome tactics while this music is playing. haha

Modifié par mr_afk, 02 mai 2011 - 05:42 .

[DW2511]

If i manage to get myself bothered enough maybe i'll have a few more goes at it at my current level but I don't know.. I can't kill rage demons very well and can't defend against them with my current glass cannon setups. Since the crit-mage setup isn't really designed for elemental spells (like cold) the few tries I had at it were slightly fail. Or maybe it was the whole only having 14 constitution that killed me. Hmm.

I never say 'I told you so', haha. Try one of my builds with 1-2 wariors with Rally/El. Aegis. I beat it in minute casting a single Heal. Glass cannoning huge numbers of mobs is fun, but limited space and 3 or more Elites is a pain. Tank Mage FTW. I tried it with 3 mages and Isabela, almost managed it on NM.

[mr_afk]

Thanks for 'not' rubbing it in

But yeah, I'm not sure if it was my glass cannon setup that really was the problem. It was more I didn't have very good equipment (e.g. the main staves I normally use are spirit but due to immunities I had to switch to cold - and I didn't have any decent cold staves..) This meant that I couldn't kill them very fast = glass cannon setup useless. The tight quarters/everyone been elite did also make CC a lot harder.

Anyway i'm not sure if elemental aegis/elemental shield actually helps against rage demon backstabs. I actually had 100% fire resist in addition to the elemental aegis etc. but they still did heaps of damage. I'm quite certain that they just ignore all your resistances so the only the only thing that can help is either damage resistance or high con.

Blah, I've given up on it for now, trying out a walking bomb build atm. Should be interesting.

[DW2511]

WB is great if you do it yourself, pretty useless in Boss battles though. Immune to Crits helps against RDs, dunno if you can get it in ACT 2.

BTW, my main inspiration for tank builds were forced CQC situations like the Xebenkeck one.

[mr_afk]

You can get it for Aveline through her dlc ring. I don't know of any other items I'd be willing to buy but maybe i'll add her into my party setup for the Xebenkeck one..

Walking bomb is not quite as amazing as I thought it would be. It seems to have a visual effect pretty similar to chain lightning unless I'm doing something wrong. I only tried it out a little bit so maybe i'll see some pretty explosions tmr.. Though maybe my expectations are just too high - I guess anything seems tame compared to the crazy-purple weird walking bomb explosions from origins haha.

Yeah, tank builds do have their uses. But still - if you know what you're doing you can glass cannon your way through almost any boss fight. Just look at all those people out there speed running it.
I just haven't really figured out my setup properly yet...thought it would be a lot easier than it was.

Oh well, good luck with your rogue-tank haha

[DW2511]

WB is demanding. You have to do both the infecting and the detonating yourself to make sure it activates properly. Do not attempt with a Non FM build.

Still, Pull-GR-Disorient-WB-Despair is a demanding but extremely satisfying combo. I killed 11(!!!) Qunari with it once...

[Irish Porkchopp]

mr_afk wrote...

Just imagine big explosions and really awesome tactics while this music is playing. haha

HA HA!  Awesome.  Sorry you haven't had luck with XerbenJerk.  I doubt those speed clears you see on here are first attempts anyway.  You'll get it though.

Walking bomb is fun but it does require some setup.  It's animation isn't terribly impressive, but it is fun to see a bunch of baddies explode all at once.  Makes me laugh every single time.

DW2511 wrote...

WB is demanding. You have to do both the infecting and the detonating yourself to make sure it activates properly. Do not attempt with a Non FM build.

Still, Pull-GR-Disorient-WB-Despair is a demanding but extremely satisfying combo. I killed 11(!!!) Qunari with it once...

Check out AreleX's Mage guides for some pretty reliable WB setups - He actually has Anders on WB duty.  He uses Glyph of paralysis->WB->Spirit Bolt.  I think he also has a party member or 2 attacking the 'Target of Anders' to help detonate it.  IFrom the videos, it seems to work pretty well.

[mr_afk]

Irish Porkchopp wrote...

Check out AreleX's Mage guides for some pretty reliable WB setups - He actually has Anders on WB duty.  He uses Glyph of paralysis->WB->Spirit Bolt.  I think he also has a party member or 2 attacking the 'Target of Anders' to help detonate it.  IFrom the videos, it seems to work pretty well.

Here's a video of my new party setup centred around the walking bomb. It's the Varnell fight.


As I sorta promised in the annotations in the movie, I'll list my summary of my setup here first before I add it into the guide as I really need to sleep now:
Hawke: 15str, 15dex, 77mag, 16cun, 17will, 25con
 - Abilities: Rock Armour, Spirit Bolt*, Walking Bomb**, Heal, Heroic Aura*, Fist of the Maker, Telekinetic Burst, Pull of the Abyss*, Gravitic Ring*, bloodmagic, haemorrhage*, sacrifice, grave robber

Aveline: 47str, 10dex, 10mag, 10cun, 17will, 22con
 - Abilities: Shield Defence*, Scatter*, Assault*, Shield Bash*, Control, Might, Cleave*, Destroyer, Bolster, Immovable, Indomitable, Thick Skin

Merrill: 12str, 13dex, 52mag, 13cun, 14will, 25con
 - Abilities: Stonefist*, Petrify*, Rock Armour, Chain Lightning*, Tempest, Galvanism, Arcane Shield, Blood of the First, Wounds of the Past*, Wrath of the Elvhen**, Ensnare

Varric: 11str, 34dex, 10mag, 40cun, 11will, 11con
 - Abilities: Bursting Arrow**, Archer's Lance, Pinning Shot*, Rush, Fatiguing Fog**, Confusion*, Miasmic Flask, Rhyming Triplet, Well-Oiled, Bianca's Song*


The concept behind it all is quite simple. Hawke uses pull of the abyss to cluster enemies. Varric disorientates them with fatiguing fog. Aveline runs in to use scatter  and assault (CCCs) as well as staggering enemies, Merrill stone fists enemies, and Hawke also can throw a walking bomb into the mix and set it off with a spirit bolt (Aveline is made immune to spirit via runes). Any staggers are chain lightning'd by Merrill - which is super effective due to the clustering of enemies. Any boss/elite staggers from shield bash/claymore are paralysing haemorrhaged.

Once I level up I should be able to get archers lance so I can work the brittle CCC (via petrify) properly. Bursting arrow just doesn't have quite the same effect. I'll put this all into nice readable talent orders later.
I'm off to bed now.

edit: almost forgot - the best part about this new setup is that it doesn't have anders in it!!! 

Modifié par mr_afk, 04 mai 2011 - 10:16 .

[mr_afk]

Updated with the Brekker fight

[Irish Porkchopp]

mr_afk wrote...
edit: almost forgot - the best part about this new setup is that it doesn't have anders in it!!! 

Ha ha - love it!

Great videos.  I like the commentary at the bottom.  It lets the video flow better.

edit:  i see you have both upgrades to Walking Bomb.  I tried that on my first playthrough and saw that the virulent walking bomb hardly did anything.  If you managed a good WB setup, most things around it will die anyway.  If anything lives it has a pretty low chance of getting infected.  I only noticed one time where it actually infected something else- that enemy was all alone at that point so no additional killage from it anyway.  Do you notice any benefit from having the virulent upgrade?  Did you just upgrade it because you needed the points to get Spirit Mastery?  (for a non blood mage, I find death siphon is pretty useful, but you're part of the suicide pact I see)

Modifié par Irish Porkchopp, 05 mai 2011 - 11:12 .

[mr_afk]

Glad you like them! This new setup I'm using is making fights the easiest I've ever experienced.The only real issue will be rage demons/shades but I think I'll be able to manage..

As for the walking bomb - I haven't tried out the non-virulent version tbh, but virulent WB is pretty amazing if you throw it into clusters of disoriented enemies. If i'm not wrong, I think that the 'infection' happens instantaneously such that it causes a chain reaction much like a chain lightning (but with smaller jumps and higher damage) due to the way that explosions will trigger another explosion etc.
So I think upgrading it to virulent will increase the overall explosion radius and damage which is useful.

In general I suppose if you're just using it for the initial explosion it won't make much difference. But in several fights (which I unfortunately didn't record) I've managed pull lots of enemies on top of the boss, disorient the group, and virulently explode all of them such that the boss in the middle of the cluster got blown to death by all those smaller explosions. 
If you're skilled, the other way to do it would be to walking bomb the boss and blow it up as it has the highest hp and thus will make the biggest explosion - but I don't have enough spike damage (without CCCs) to pull that off so I prefer my method.


And yeah, death syphon is pretty useless for me and my wrist cutting cronies but I still need to get it.
I am tempted to get and upgrade dispel - it's really under-rated by everyone but it does have its uses such as interrupting mages/getting free damage off commanders. Spirit mastery is such a pain to get...

Anyway, are there any other fights (besides the gauntlet and xebenkeck) in act 2 whcih you think I should record?
And don't worry, I'll probably record that spider one, just for you 

Modifié par mr_afk, 06 mai 2011 - 05:44 .