220 réponses à ce sujet

[twincast]

MrTijger wrote...

BobSmith101 wrote...

Diminishing returns is what sunk Westwood.

They were a one trick pony, Bioware isnt.

Plain wrong.

[Volourn]

"I think the docs get a pass for a couple of reasons."

Main reason is because outside of an interveiw, they are pretty quiet (as theya re too busy to deal with us riffraff). And, they're swimming in the billion dollars they got from EA so they don't care what we think. L0L BIO goes under they are still super rich.

"One, they just acknoledged fan complaints validity a bit more than Laidlaw seems to have."

Nah. He has too. Ackowledging 'fan complaints' is not the same as agreeing with them, btw.

"two, they have a long history of awesome games behind them. "

As does Laidlaw.


"Three, one would assume laidlaw was more involved in DA2 day to day, being lead dev."

they make the final decisions. They (and the rest of the EA bigwigs) decided to make DA2 in a relatively short time which let to 'corners being cut' likereuse of dungeons.


"But they are ultimatly responsible for every Bioware product. "

Yup, but we know they ain't going anywhere anytime soon. It's also why even if the punks who want Laidlaw (or gaider)fired get their wish, things will not change all that much. The docs wills till have BIO make games the way they see fit.

[FellowerOfOdin]

"DA:RtP sells faster than DA:O".

First of all, I'd like to have the numbers on that, thanks and second...did anyone of Bioware note that the game is in budget basket for about 2 weeks now?

[Volourn]

No, it isn't. Still full price. And, DAO also was in 'bargain basekt' in certain places after released. proves nothing.

[Nozybidaj]

jds1bio wrote...

Thanks for the link. Interesting article.

The importance of core fans cannot be emphasized enough. Swell. But it's going to be a while before they get to dealing with that, with ME3 coming out (which has a fanbase much larger than just core RPG fans)

I doubt the validity of that, seeing as how neither ME game sold as much as DA:O.  But, carry on, don't let me derail you.

[Volourn]

"I doubt the validity of that, seeing as how neither ME game sold as much as DA:O. "

Ignorance isn bliss.

[SoulRebel_1979]

Pedrak wrote...

Three things.

1) If DA2 sold faster than DAO, it is more DAO's merit than DA2's. Preorders have been 400.000, IIRC, and they were based on Bio's reputation and on DAO's strength. 

Bingo!!!!!

[ItsToofy]

DA:O has upwards of 3.7 million + in sales and counting, there are no PC figures unfortunately but I'm sure we can assume an even 4 mil especially considering it brought all the Baldur's Gate fans out to see what all the hooplah was about, granted it didn't make as much of an impression as most of them thought, but hey, it was still great success.

Let's remember, Mass Effect was originaly released for Xbox ONLY...only after about a year did they finaly bring out the PC version w/ DLC included, by then, anyone who had a copy had it for the xbox. Mass Effect 2, granted it was a wide release, I guarantee you the only sales figures that really matter were the xbox sales, I doubt even 10% of the people that bought origins bought mass effect 2 on PC, which is no wonder they are just handing out ME2 on PC at this point. I'm going out on a limb here, but with even the circumstancial evidence that we DO have, I'm pointing to Origins outselling ME2 AND ME1, if not at least ME2.

[chicagojedi]

The Doctors answered a question about why DA2 sucked earlier on, but think this question and the answer gets to the root of the problem much better.

Dragon Age and Mass Effect have had big marketing campaigns. Does Bioware have much input in regards to marketing?

Muzyka: Very much. The marketing is driven by Bioware marketing and PR people, and we’re part of EA. We’re part of a publisher now. We have dedicated marketing and PR resources that are part of our team. They attend meetings with the team. They collaborate on the design. They give us feedback from the fans, and that’s really important to us.

So essentially you have marketing types sitting in the design meetings saying, "no, no, no... tactical elements need to go. Button mashing is hip. Lose the rpg stuff. We cans still market it as an rpg even if you use the same dungeon for every mission!"  And then you have one the top designers or whoever wishing he was making Jade Empire 2 not Dragon Age 2 so an action rpg game is what we get. 

If Bioware really cared about "fan feedback" they'd admit what a steaming pile this game was and promise to do better in the future. I borrowed a friend's copy. He wasn't playing it. This game was a clearly a planned like a bank heist. Grab the money and go. Seriously, any company planning on continuing a franchise and maintaing it's player base wouldn't have come out with this game. It was a quick, cheap build. The plan seems to have been to develop a junk game a quickly as possible, market the hell out of it, and milk the fan base for as much money as possible. Clearly the repurcussion of that is going to be bad or low sales not only of the next DA game but also all Bioware products going ahead. And this sort of thing won't be relegated to one title. Even if the DA2 sales are low. Because you'll still have the PR guy from EA who never played a video game in his life sitting in every meeting giving his "input" on every design decision for every game going forward.

Bioware was my favorite developer. Every game was "must buy day one". Now ME3 is a "wait and see". SW:TOR is "wait and see". And DA3 is a definite "no". There would have to massive layoffs of everyone who had a hand in the design decisions for DA2 before I consider buying the next one. I'm fairly certain many gamers are in the same camp now.There is no excuse for this wretched excuse of a game. And there is no excuse for the sugar coating from Bioware of all the negative fan feedback they claim to care about. Instead we get mocked in interviews as intolerant, or change resitant, or some kooky fringe of haters, etc. Guess there's no rules at EA about designers mocking us. Whatever. 

It's just sad and frustrating. I expected better from Bioware. We all did.

[Killjoy Cutter]

Frybread76 wrote...

I find it ironic that Bioware employees keep saying how important the core fans are to them, yet the lead designer of DA2 basically has said the core fans are too stuck in their ways and not open to change, and it's their fault DA2 has received mixed reviews. I'm open to change, I'm just not open to bad change.

It's good to see those comments from the ME3 crew.

Keep in mind that Laidlaw isn't on that crew, and his reaction and theirs can be different. 

I think Laidlaw is feeling stung that so many fans of the original prefer it to his "vision" in the sequel, and blaming the fans is his way of coping with it.

[Volourn]

"It's good to see those comments from the ME3 crew."

The dcos aren't the 'ME3' crew. Theya re the BIO bosses and founders and now are higher ups in the EA hierachy. They oversee ALL BIO products as well as non BIO products.

[TheMadCat]

MrTijger wrote...

BobSmith101 wrote...

Diminishing returns is what sunk Westwood.

They were a one trick pony, Bioware isnt.

Bioware has 2 unique IP series and is working on an MMO with arguably the greatest franchise on earth. Westwood had C&C and while  runaway success they never came up with anything new after that worth mentioning.

They were more to the strategy genre then BioWare is to the RPG genre; the absolutely dominated the video gaming landscape in the mid to late 90's with their titles contributing to 5% of all PC game sales at their peak which is a number even call of Duty doesn't match on any individual or combined platform. They were a behemoth and "one trick ponies" do not reach that level.

Modifié par TheMadCat, 14 avril 2011 - 06:58 .

[Shadowbanner]

MingWolf wrote...

Good that they acknowledge the core fans. Little disconcerting that they still think the polarization is between those who like the changes and those who expected an Origins 2. I know people who would jump at the chance to compare it with the original game, but a lot of the criticism has nothing to do with synthetic differences but rather design elements that demerit the game as it stands by itself.

Exactly.

I find his replies rather exasperating, as if they hadn't realised or acknowledged what's actually wrong with DA2 when its so blatant to everyone else.

So obvious that Amazon UK is selling DA2 at less than 14 pounds now. Sales have plummeted and word of mouth is taking its toll on revenues now.

The fact is that DA2, standing by itself and forgetting DA:O, is a bad game. When you compound the fact it's a sequel to DA:O then it gets even worse.

They really must pay more attention to what fans (= clients/consumers) are posting. They cannot afford more slip-ups like this one. Their reputation is tarnished having taken a huge blow. So much so that I will not be pre-ordering ME3 as I did with DA2 signature edition and DA:O (and ME1, ME2 etc...).

I'll wait until it comes out and read others' reviews before buying it. 

For the life of me I cannot remember many games that have received such negativity as DA2.

Modifié par Shadowbanner, 14 avril 2011 - 08:02 .

[Killjoy Cutter]

Volourn wrote...

"It's good to see those comments from the ME3 crew."

The dcos aren't the 'ME3' crew. Theya re the BIO bosses and founders and now are higher ups in the EA hierachy. They oversee ALL BIO products as well as non BIO products.

Yeah, I realized my error and was coming back to edit my post.  Ah well.

[Volourn]

"Bioware has 2 unique IP series"

Nah.

[Pedrak]

They really must pay more attention to what fans (= clients/consumers) are posting

Trouble is, "fans" is not equal to "clients/consumers". I don't know how many people there are on these forums, but even if, say, 70% were complaining about DA2 (and I certainly do have some complaints to make myself, even if I thought the game was overall ok), I suspect it'd be still a rather small and insignificant part of their market.

This doesn't mean they should ignore our feedback, but I doubt it will be their priority.

Modifié par Pedrak, 14 avril 2011 - 07:07 .

[Captain Sassy Pants]

Nozybidaj wrote...

Clammo wrote...

Seriously all the waffle about how important core fans are just sounds like trite marketing lip service, and they'll just carry on down this simplified route. The proof of the pudding is in the eating, and it's tasting pretty sour recently.

Well, to be fair, that is all these interviews typically are.  They aren't actually going to come out and say "we don't care about the old fans so long as we get new ones" even if it is the truth.  Reading between the lines a bit though, you can see that is basically what he said.

And of course the game's initially sold faster than Origins - games generally sell on the reputation of their predecessor and the developers. Now that reputation's been badly tarnished I'd expect sales to slow substantially, and probably that they'll have trouble selling DA3 in anything like the numbers they'll be hoping for based on the very many negative opinions of DA2.

And that will be the real measure of success.  If DA3 sells better or worse than Origins will be the real indicator of how successful the change in format was.  Same with ME2/3 really.

The best part is though, that Stanley Woo himself said on this very forum that they expect to lose some of their old fans, and don't care, because they figured the pay off in new fans would more than make up for it.

They've never really hid their true intentions.

[randName]

twincast wrote...

MrTijger wrote...

BobSmith101 wrote...

Diminishing returns is what sunk Westwood.

They were a one trick pony, Bioware isnt.

Plain wrong.

How, shouldn't you validate this somehow? 

Westwood had only C&C, BioWare have 2 strong IPs, and apparently a good connection with Lucas Arts, they have also done several rather distinct games in the past - unless you classify doing ARPGs as a one trick pony? 

There is obviously still a risk for them being consumed, but they should be more in the postion of Dice than Westwood, and I would claim that BioWare have done more when it comes to variation than DICE (Even if DICE also have done racing games, and Mirrors Edge).

[Krahen0]

twincast wrote...

MrTijger wrote...

BobSmith101 wrote...

Diminishing returns is what sunk Westwood.

They were a one trick pony, Bioware isnt.

Plain wrong.

Completely wrong, yes.

[randName]

Volourn wrote...

"Bioware has 2 unique IP series"

Nah.

Only to lazy to look it up, but how many of the old IPs do they and/or EA own? I assume several of them are tied to publisher at the time.

[Sacred_Fantasy]

Why buy ME if BioWare can give away free copy to support DA sales? I'm sure not going to buy anymore ME series after ME 2. Just wait DA 3 going down to bargain basket which should be faster than DA 2.

Modifié par Sacred_Fantasy, 14 avril 2011 - 07:12 .

[TheMadCat]

randName wrote...

Westwood had only C&C, BioWare have 2 strong IPs, and apparently a good connection with Lucas Arts, they have also done several rather distinct games in the past - unless you classify doing ARPGs as a one trick pony? 

There is obviously still a risk for them being consumed, but they should be more in the postion of Dice than Westwood, and I would claim that BioWare have done more when it comes to variation than DICE (Even if DICE also have done racing games, and Mirrors Edge).

Dune series, Dragonstrike, one of the first Battletech games, Bladerunner.

These were all their games in the early and mid 90's which built them up the the juggernaught they were alongside with the early C&C generation. Ironically it wasn't until EA took control of them that they became what you consider them to be which is a one trick pony and milking the C&C franchise well beyond death. If history harbors and hints of the future then the furutre's looking bright for BioWare doesn't it.

Modifié par TheMadCat, 14 avril 2011 - 07:19 .

[jds1bio]

Nozybidaj wrote...

jds1bio wrote...

Thanks for the link. Interesting article.

The importance of core fans cannot be emphasized enough. Swell. But it's going to be a while before they get to dealing with that, with ME3 coming out (which has a fanbase much larger than just core RPG fans)

I doubt the validity of that, seeing as how neither ME game sold as much as DA:O.  But, carry on, don't let me derail you.

When BioWare told us that 80% of players who reported DA:O feedback never made it past Ostagar, they must have thought at some point "wow, a lot of people bought this, but just couldn't get into it".  But you can't tell if they are fans or not based on that alone.

Lots of people bought DA2 also, but based on these boards, you wouldn't call them fans now.

[ejoslin]

jds1bio wrote...

Nozybidaj wrote...

jds1bio wrote...

Thanks for the link. Interesting article.

The importance of core fans cannot be emphasized enough. Swell. But it's going to be a while before they get to dealing with that, with ME3 coming out (which has a fanbase much larger than just core RPG fans)

I doubt the validity of that, seeing as how neither ME game sold as much as DA:O.  But, carry on, don't let me derail you.

When BioWare told us that 80% of players who reported DA:O feedback never made it past Ostagar, they must have thought at some point "wow, a lot of people bought this, but just couldn't get into it".  But you can't tell if they are fans or not based on that alone.

Lots of people bought DA2 also, but based on these boards, you wouldn't call them fans now.

Their sample is also not good.  Many people turn off on-line reporting.  Another thing that will skew the data is that many people play through once or twice but played all the origins as well, so that may give you 2 full playthroughs, 4 only getting to Ostegar in their data.

Statistics can and often are read in biased ways.  If you want your numbers to say a particular thing, you can usually get them to say what it is you want.

Modifié par ejoslin, 14 avril 2011 - 07:17 .

[Einherjar420]

Warheadz wrote...

Einherjar420 wrote...

Warheadz wrote...

 Some of them have expressed disappointment. It’s something we really take seriously. We’re taking that feedback to heart and we’re seeing what we can do to continue to surprise and delight our fans in the future.

It seems to me they have acknowledged it. They must have read reviews and oppinions on various sites, including this one, to know that "some of them have expressed dissapointment."
 

In my opinion that's not acknowledging that DA2 had shortcomings. They are just stating that some people didn't like it and yeah, we read some of their feedback.

That is where our opinions differ then. They must be reading the feedback from the fans from this site at least. They've also released a patch for PC and are planning on an update for Xbox 360 and Playstation 3. So, by that, they've acknowledged where the game had bugs and glitches. Those are some of Dragon Age II's "shortcomings"  Only time will tell if they've acknowledged anything else. I'm sure they have, you're sure they haven't. We're at a stand still.