966 réponses à ce sujet

[Aramintai]

Miashi wrote...

Aramintai wrote...

I can see where this is going - DA3 will be an interactive movie with occasional usage of Button Awesome for QTE. That would surely be more accessible for casual gamers.

Too bad that concept existed for more than a decade. It's called Dragon's Lair :T

Kilshrek wrote...

Asura's Wrath is this game, apparently. Kotaku explores it a little here, although we know what to expect from the outset with this game. I may just get it for some angry face, and angry growl. There simply isn't enough angry.

I was thinking more like Heavy Rain. 

[Aramintai]

mdugger12 wrote...

Aramintai wrote...

I can see where this is going - DA3 will be an interactive movie with occasional usage of Button Awesome for QTE. That would surely be more accessible for casual gamers.

Wow. So pausing the game, entering commands, then watching them play out is less like an interactive movie? Right.

Who says pausing will even be in DA3? It may as well be thrown out into the "Dumbster of All Things Hardcore" just like the aerial tactical camera. 

Modifié par Aramintai, 15 avril 2011 - 12:24 .

[DeathStroke TZA]

Guliver wrote...

Edli wrote...

Guliver wrote...

Bull**** in all it's glory.

There's nothing challenging or hard about games. You just press buttons and something awesome happens. Life is about overcoming challanges, game is just about fun. Don't confuse those two things.

It kinda makes me wonder why some peoples prefer to play chess in their free time. I mean seriously, why challenge yourself when you can have fun? Or maybe fun is subjective and means different things to different folks?

While I agree with your post I still find it silly that you compare a computer game with chess.

Don't know about you but I never found any of Dragon Age games challenging.
If you think that DA:O with it's battle mages and supernatural rogues provided any challenge you must be living in  alternate universe.

Awakening was even a bigger let down. New equipment gave huge stats and enemies were incredibly easy. 

Dragon Age 2 on Nightmare is definetly more challenging then DA:O/A ever was. Yes, there are some parts of the game were you just had to run in circles for half an hour while you kill some elite boss or bunch of enemies but there were also parts of the game were you had to strategicly figure out where to position your characters, which skills to use exactly at  which time and what companions to take with you so you don't kill each eather with AoE skills.

I remember fighting Meredith on my first playthrough. She killed Aveline with full hp in one shot. Killed her on normal at my second playthrough just to end it faster so I can start my third playthrough with Warrior Pro-Templar Male Hawke  This time im going to try her on Nightmare.

Archdemon was nothing compared to her, I just spammed Balista and hp pots and waited till it died.
Even High Dragon of DA:O was easier then in DA2.

I don't understand why so many ppl complain about this game? Because it didn't met your expectations? Well, you can't have everything..
Bioware did a good work on this game, it could be better but unfortunetly it isn't, so maybe it's time you quit hating this game and instead just play it and enjoy it.

Anyway, it can't be that bad as some of you say. Compared to other rpgs it's definetly one of the best rpgs out there.

Surely you didn't just say Meredith was hard? She's the end boss! She had damn well better be more difficult than insert random mob. In a whole, Dragon Age: Origins on nightmare is possibly the hardest thing to calculate. You have friendly fire to worry about, proper tactics, trail and error, in every battle you encounter on DA:O. I had a hard spot on DA:2 : Meredith

[Nozybidaj]

Aradace wrote...
What's truly got me rolling is that he has essentially said that regardless of what you want, the DA2 combat engine is here to stay. 

Which amounts to what exactly?  Assuming a DA3 is even greenlighted at this point, which I think is a rather large assumption, you get the engine for 1 more game rushed to the shelves?  If it doesn't get greenlighted the comment basically means nothing.  They obviously aren't going to release a patch ripping it from DA2.

By the time ME3 gets out the door and TOR goes live pretty good chance BW wil go the way of Westwood (especially if TOR isn't a huge mega nuclear hit like WoW).

[Sir Caradoc]

mdugger12 wrote...

No. Because CoD has mechanics and elements of gameplay that, even is you've never touched a FPS, is relatable to a game you've played before that point allowing you to jump in. It's not always that way with RPGs and it's unfair to alienate gamers that don't have years of experience with the genre. There are mechanics and gameplay elements in the genre that developed almost completely independent from what is seen and expected in the rest of the industry. Since "old school fans" were in the position to grow, learn, and master those elements over time they seem to want to alienate anybody who didn't.

Bioware isn't wrong here. They didn't turn DA 2 into God of War.

I don't get your reasoning. Everyone has been a novice gamer once, I recall being overwhelmed with my first rpg games. So much stuff going and I didn't know at first how to play them properly. (Fallout 1, Jagged aliance 2,  Daggerfall, baldur's gate). But I learned as I played on. Reading the manual helped a lot. I learned the game rulesset bit by bit. It took me a while to understand how to build optimal characters. but that was part of the fun experience. I felt like my character had accomplished something. Nowdays games don't require the same learning process anymore. you'll just launch the game and master it in few hours. Where is the fun in that?

I do not think that people are dumber nowdays. Its jjust that devs have just decided that people can't handle rpgs anymore. How could they ever learn if games are getting simpler and simpler by each title. Dragon Age orgin was like an exception to this rule. A sign of better times - a reminder of good old days. Sadly it seems that Bioware doesn't want to make games like that anymore.

Modifié par Sir Caradoc, 15 avril 2011 - 12:26 .

[mdugger12]

Nozybidaj wrote...

Aradace wrote...
What's truly got me rolling is that he has essentially said that regardless of what you want, the DA2 combat engine is here to stay. 

Which amounts to what exactly?  Assuming a DA3 is even greenlighted at this point, which I think is a rather large assumption, you get the engine for 1 more game rushed to the shelves?  If it doesn't get greenlighted the comment basically means nothing.  They obviously aren't going to release a patch ripping it from DA2.

By the time ME3 gets out the door and TOR goes live pretty good chance BW wil go the way of Westwood (especially if TOR isn't a huge mega nuclear hit like WoW).

And that will be a good thing? That's what they deserve huh? Because I guess they churn out garbage that gets in the way of all the great games released every year right? The industry will be so much better without Bioware.

[Vice-Admiral von Titsling]

mdugger12 wrote...
They asked for an adult audience to act like adults and give other gamers a chance to love what they love. They didn't drastically change "your" franchise, they just made it available to new fans.

I don't share my favorite bar with preschools.
I don't share violent movies with my grandma.
I don't share RPGs with people who don't like RPGs.

If they want my money and praise, they need to make a product for me. If they want to make a game for those people, then they need to make a game for those people and stop blowing smoke up my ass.

There's absolutely NO need to make everything be idiot proof and have universal appeal. Adults need adult spaces, just as kids need kid spaces.

[Kilshrek]

mdugger12 wrote...


I've never tried to say that you or anyone else that doesn't like DA2 is wrong and I'm not going to start now. Fans by nature have strong feelings for the object of their affection. Changes usually don't go over well and neither does "going mainstream".

I never pay much attention to sales figures or critical reviews. And especially when it comes to sales I'm sure RPG fans don't use figures to tell them if a game is good or not.

There were a lot of great things about DA:O that I fell in love with. But I didn't see any of those things missing from DA 2. That doesn't mean things you love about the first aren't in the second. But when I ask for anybody to explain what feature is in DA:O that isn't in DA2 but was necessary to the experience of the first game, I never get an answer.

You never asked me.

Having a full conversation with your companion when you want (when reasonable as well, like at their 'home' location. In DAO, not in DA 2. Effect? Companions feel like any other NPC, only they fight.

Skills. Lock picking and speech challenges. In DAO if you wanted your rogue to be able to pick those locks you gotta invest in those skills. And if you wanted to convince someone to do something they wouldn't normally do, you don't just hold a knife to their neck and hope they won't call your bluff, or just bring Varric along.

Story related specialisations. DAO has you earn your specialisations. Want to be a Templar? Butter up Alistair. Want to be a Reaver? What price are you willing to pay? DA 2 just gives them to you at level 7.

Inventory is very iffy, but I'm not sure I like the way they've done it. I would have rathered several armour sets for companions instead of picking upgrades up. These upgrades in turn have no visual effect, but add odd things which the player may not need, and certainly does not allow the player the same level of customisation that DAO had.

Combat, while the pace of DAO may have been a little slow, DA 2 solves this by making things fly. Watch as your warrior gracefully charges towards the enemy with his heavy looking two handed maul/sword. See your rogue teleport next to a companion in need, and then teleport behind an enemy to turn them into flying mince with the merest poke of their dagger! Be astounded by the teleporting enemy mages, who rain death on your party as they flit across the battlefield like a randy butterfly.

Feel the true terror of the new Darkspawn, who now resemble the cannon fodder enemies of a youth show long past. Who needs melty faced Hurlocks, dastardly scheming Genlocks and fearsome Ogres when you can have skeleton faced darkspawn and spiky big things. Yes, all this game needed was lots and lots of spikes, because even the Champion armour set is so full of spikes I'm amazed Hawke never died from accidental impalement.

What you enjoy from Origins may not be what I enjoyed, but I just gave you what was important to my enjoyment of Origins that wasn't in DA 2. But you probably don't have the same list, does that invalidate my list?

[Miashi]

mdugger12 wrote...
But you can talk to NPCs in this game as well. So it isn't exactly gone.

/facepalm
You totally missed my point.

[mdugger12]

Sir Caradoc wrote...

mdugger12 wrote...

No. Because CoD has mechanics and elements of gameplay that, even is you've never touched a FPS, is relatable to a game you've played before that point allowing you to jump in. It's not always that way with RPGs and it's unfair to alienate gamers that don't have years of experience with the genre. There are mechanics and gameplay elements in the genre that developed almost completely independent from what is seen and expected in the rest of the industry. Since "old school fans" were in the position to grow, learn, and master those elements over time they seem to want to alienate anybody who didn't.

Bioware isn't wrong here. They didn't turn DA 2 into God of War.

I don't get your reasoning. Everyone has been a novice gamer once, I recall being overwhelmed with my first rpg games. So much stuff going and I didn't know at first how to play them properly. (Fallout 1, Jagged aliance 2,  Daggerfall, baldur's gate). But I learned as I played on. Reading the manual helped a lot. I learned the game rulesset bit by bit. It took me a while to understand how to build optimal characters. but that was part of the fun experience. I felt like my character had accomplished something. Nowdays games don't require the same learning process anymore. you'll just launch the game and master it in few hours. Where is the fun in that?

I do not think that people dumber nowdays. Its jjust that devs have just decided that people can't handle rpgs anymore. How could they ever learn if games are getting simpler and simpler by each title. Dragon Age orgin was like an exception to this rule. A sign of better times - a reminder of good old days. Sadly it seems that Bioware doesn't want to make games like that anymore.

You're not getting what I'm saying. You're "good old days" might not be the same as a player who's "good old day" is GTA San Andreas. Things they grew up expecting in video games aren't the same as what we grew up expecting. It's not good or bad it's just different expectations. Actually controlling combat or having your character speak isn't new in many other genres. It's expected as a must by younger gamers.

Nothing is dumbed down. Tedious, cumbersome, or outdated nonsense was just phased out.

[Nozybidaj]

mdugger12 wrote...

And that will be a good thing? That's what they deserve huh?

I never said that, it is just the inevitable end once your company is bought out by EA.  People always harp on a few "high profile" examples like Westwood, but there are dozens of companies that followed the same trend with EA over the last 2 decades or so.

I'm not trying to imply good or bad, just read what I posted in a "matter of factly" kind of voice.

[mdugger12]

Vice-Admiral von Titsling wrote...

mdugger12 wrote...
They asked for an adult audience to act like adults and give other gamers a chance to love what they love. They didn't drastically change "your" franchise, they just made it available to new fans.

I don't share my favorite bar with preschools.
I don't share violent movies with my grandma.
I don't share RPGs with people who don't like RPGs.

If they want my money and praise, they need to make a product for me. If they want to make a game for those people, then they need to make a game for those people and stop blowing smoke up my ass.

There's absolutely NO need to make everything be idiot proof and have universal appeal. Adults need adult spaces, just as kids need kid spaces.

Some adults don't want to hem and haw over the boots they're going to put on a party member.
Some adults don't want their protagonist to pantomime during conversations
Some adults don't feel any "immersion" by pausing the game, entering a command, then watching everything play out.

 BUT they still may want to experience the world, story, and characters that  the developer has created.
It's not "idiot proof" nothing about DA:O made it suited for a smarter fanbase. NOTHING. Fans that think like you need to get over themselves

[mdugger12]

Nozybidaj wrote...

mdugger12 wrote...

And that will be a good thing? That's what they deserve huh?

I never said that, it is just the inevitable end once your company is bought out by EA.  People always harp on a few "high profile" examples like Westwood, but there are dozens of companies that followed the same trend with EA over the last 2 decades or so.

I'm not trying to imply good or bad, just read what I posted in a "matter of factly" kind of voice.

lol Well then excuse my comment.

[Vice-Admiral von Titsling]

mdugger12 wrote...
Fans that think like you need to get over themselves

Nope. You don't go into a strip club with your toddler and then complain because the dancers are naked and you don't want junior to see ******. How much money is a strip club going to make when it ceases being a strip club? When you tip the dancers with candy instead of dollar bills, the dancers all wear huge flowery moo moos and you can't buy beer, only juice? It's not a strip club anymore, it's something else. You ruined it.

If you don't like RPG features, stop playing them.

Modifié par Vice-Admiral von Titsling, 15 avril 2011 - 12:48 .

[Kilshrek]

Nozybidaj wrote...

mdugger12 wrote...

And that will be a good thing? That's what they deserve huh?

I never said that, it is just the inevitable end once your company is bought out by EA.  People always harp on a few "high profile" examples like Westwood, but there are dozens of companies that followed the same trend with EA over the last 2 decades or so.

I'm not trying to imply good or bad, just read what I posted in a "matter of factly" kind of voice.

That may be the case but they also manage to churn out consistently popular, if not good, games(EA Sports titles, The Sims franchise come to mind). It's not all doom and gloom with EA but their track record is certainly poor with acquired companies. C&C may still be held up as a laughing stock for the rest of the RTS world in years to come.

[Kandid001]

What a load of tripe. BioWare if you care about your prestige among RPG fans get rid of this hack ASAP.

[Maverick827]

Vice-Admiral von Titsling wrote...

Nope. You don't go into a strip club with your toddler and then complain because the dancers are naked and you don't want junior to see ******. How much money is a strip club going to make when it ceases being a strip club? When you tip the dancers with candy instead of dollar bills, the dancers all wear huge flowery moo moos and you can't buy beer, only juice? It's not a strip club anymore, it's something else. You ruined it.

That is quite literally the worst analogy I have ever seen on the internet. Congratulations.

[Nozybidaj]

Maverick827 wrote...

Vice-Admiral von Titsling wrote...

Nope. You don't go into a strip club with your toddler and then complain because the dancers are naked and you don't want junior to see ******. How much money is a strip club going to make when it ceases being a strip club? When you tip the dancers with candy instead of dollar bills, the dancers all wear huge flowery moo moos and you can't buy beer, only juice? It's not a strip club anymore, it's something else. You ruined it.

That is quite literally the worst analogy I have ever seen on the internet. Congratulations.

I probably would have used a different analogy, but it was quite appropriate. /shrug

Certainly got the point across.

Kandid001 wrote...

What a load of tripe. BioWare if you care about your prestige among RPG fans get rid of this hack ASAP.

They don't........

Modifié par Nozybidaj, 15 avril 2011 - 12:55 .

[Vice-Admiral von Titsling]

Maverick827 wrote...

Vice-Admiral von Titsling wrote...

Nope. You don't go into a strip club with your toddler and then complain because the dancers are naked and you don't want junior to see ******. How much money is a strip club going to make when it ceases being a strip club? When you tip the dancers with candy instead of dollar bills, the dancers all wear huge flowery moo moos and you can't buy beer, only juice? It's not a strip club anymore, it's something else. You ruined it.

That is quite literally the worst analogy I have ever seen on the internet. Congratulations.

Yeah, it's pretty bad. Clearly I am no Aesop.

I guess the basic thrust of the problem is that they're taking an essentially niche product and trying to turn it into a mass market product, and unfortunately this particular niche isn't capable of making that transition well. At all.

It's fine to want to sell games to the CoD crowd, but if RPG fans aren't their intended audience anymore they need to say so. Of course, that would require a level of honesty that I don't think a company has.

[Louis deGuerre]

Mike :

Modifié par Louis deGuerre, 15 avril 2011 - 12:58 .

[Tommy6860]

mdugger12 wrote...

Miashi wrote...

mdugger12 wrote...
There were a lot of great things about DA:O that I fell in love with. But I didn't see any of those things missing from DA 2. That doesn't mean things you love about the first aren't in the second. But when I ask for anybody to explain what feature is in DA:O that isn't in DA2 but was necessary to the experience of the first game, I never get an answer.

I gave you one and you decided to ignore it. Some players do play for lore value. I'm the players that will go talk to every single NPC in each zone and depletes all conversation possible until I continue.

But you can talk to NPCs in this game as well. So it isn't exactly gone.

Only when it is scripted, not at any time. For example, I could ask Leliana at any time "What do you know of this place?" and get the proper response. Not happening in DA2, until the sequence for a "set in stone" conversation is triggered. Origins was also better at forcing triggers at the appropriate time for a conversation, where you could forget a chat that was a possiblity (only after giving a gift) in DA2.

Modifié par Tommy6860, 15 avril 2011 - 01:08 .

[Kilshrek]

I'm no mod, but I really think some things are getting a little too personal and should stop. Such as the Mike bashing.

That said, I think Mike has been more than a little disingenuous with his defence of the changes made in DA 2, and with what he describes as the 'target audience'. 'Target audience' here is not to be mistaken with the 'straight male gamer', but who this game is really aimed at. It rather missed me, because it changed things that didn't need to be changed.

As others have said, the response on the forums rather indicate that this game missed a fair number of people. Whether or not this is significant enough for the design team to sit down and seriously consider their changes in DA 2 only they know, but I think the idea is that if DA 3 is more of DA 2 then I and the people who didn't like DA 2 terribly much will be getting off at this stop. As it is I'm getting ME 3 only to finish what I started in ME 1, because ME 2 wasn't deserving of all the great praise heaped on it.

However unlike ME 2, DA 2 isn't a universal success that can paint its predecessor in any light it pleases. Because ME 2 'was so great' ME 1 is made to look like a crayon drawing, which it isn't. DAO wasn't the best game in the world, but it sure was good. DA 2 fell short of such lofty ideals(spiritual successor blah blah, unimportant stuff y'know), probably because it forgot to check if it brought the chute before jumping off the plane.

[Arijharn]

I'm not sure how you can say 'public outcry over DA2 is massive' when it's metacritic scores are 79 (xbox 360), 82 (PC) and 82 (PS3). It shows that generally reviewers think it's high average (to which I agree) but not that it's terrible or even terribad, as far as aggregate's go at least. It's fine to say that you don't think it's good, but you don't speak for everyone and it's pretty damn arrogant to even presume that you do.

I think DA2 did some right things, the fight encounter for the ancient rock wraith for example is a good example of something that requires a bit more thought than just "GET TANK, SMACK TARGET TO GAIN AGGRO, KEEP TANK HEALED AND DESTROY IT WITH OTHER PARTY MEMBERS" It's rather disappointing that more fights didn't make use of more elaborate mechanics, but the fact that some fights did does actually qualify to me as being 'better combat.'

Personally though, I enjoyed that the combat itself was more responsive, however I did actually miss to some degree the finesse of properly timing your attacks so that you didn't bork your current action, I actually miss trying to time Mighty Blow correctly so I didn't miss out on my regular attack.

While I can imagine that this got somewhat tedious on the PC to essentially spam your attack button, on the 360 at least I felt that not doing something pretty much meant a waste of time.

Biggest issue for me with the game was the recycling of area's. I could understand several locations, but it got to the point that it felt that the game was a third of the actual size of what it portrayed itself to be, but was merely padded out with recycled content. That is easily the most disappointing part of the game for me.

[Kilshrek]

Tommy6860 wrote...

Only when it is scripted, not at any time. For example, I could ask Leliana at any time "What do you know of this place?" and get the proper response. Not happening in DA2, until the sequence for a "set in stone" conversation is triggered. Origins was also better at forcing triggers at the appropriate time for a conversation, where you could forget a chat that was a possiblity (only after giving a gift) in DA2.

That is true, but she really only has meaningful input for Denerim and... maybe Redcliffe. Everywhere else she just says "Maybe I just haven't discovered its secrets yet". Which is slightly better than "Lead the way, Hawke", or "I think Sandal is watching me".

[Guliver]

DeathStroke TZA wrote...

Guliver wrote...

Edli wrote...

Guliver wrote...

Bull**** in all it's glory.

There's nothing challenging or hard about games. You just press buttons and something awesome happens. Life is about overcoming challanges, game is just about fun. Don't confuse those two things.

It kinda makes me wonder why some peoples prefer to play chess in their free time. I mean seriously, why challenge yourself when you can have fun? Or maybe fun is subjective and means different things to different folks?

While I agree with your post I still find it silly that you compare a computer game with chess.

Don't know about you but I never found any of Dragon Age games challenging.
If you think that DA:O with it's battle mages and supernatural rogues provided any challenge you must be living in  alternate universe.

Awakening was even a bigger let down. New equipment gave huge stats and enemies were incredibly easy. 

Dragon Age 2 on Nightmare is definetly more challenging then DA:O/A ever was. Yes, there are some parts of the game were you just had to run in circles for half an hour while you kill some elite boss or bunch of enemies but there were also parts of the game were you had to strategicly figure out where to position your characters, which skills to use exactly at  which time and what companions to take with you so you don't kill each eather with AoE skills.

I remember fighting Meredith on my first playthrough. She killed Aveline with full hp in one shot. Killed her on normal at my second playthrough just to end it faster so I can start my third playthrough with Warrior Pro-Templar Male Hawke  This time im going to try her on Nightmare.

Archdemon was nothing compared to her, I just spammed Balista and hp pots and waited till it died.
Even High Dragon of DA:O was easier then in DA2.

I don't understand why so many ppl complain about this game? Because it didn't met your expectations? Well, you can't have everything..
Bioware did a good work on this game, it could be better but unfortunetly it isn't, so maybe it's time you quit hating this game and instead just play it and enjoy it.

Anyway, it can't be that bad as some of you say. Compared to other rpgs it's definetly one of the best rpgs out there.

Surely you didn't just say Meredith was hard? She's the end boss! She had damn well better be more difficult than insert random mob. In a whole, Dragon Age: Origins on nightmare is possibly the hardest thing to calculate. You have friendly fire to worry about, proper tactics, trail and error, in every battle you encounter on DA:O. I had a hard spot on DA:2 : Meredith

You contradict yourself in every sentence. Archdemon was "the" end boss of DA:O and it was damn easy.
DA:O was a joke. You could solo the whole game and all of it's hardest bosses just with rogue. This is something you can't do on DA2 and that proves it's more challenging than DA:O.
Anyway, I never considered any of RPG's challenging. If you want challenge, play a strategy game on the hardest mode or go up against real players.

Modifié par Guliver, 15 avril 2011 - 01:23 .