966 réponses à ce sujet

[Shadowbanner]

Arijharn wrote...

I'm not sure how you can say 'public outcry over DA2 is massive' when it's metacritic scores are 79 (xbox 360), 82 (PC) and 82 (PS3). It shows that generally reviewers think it's high average (to which I agree) but not that it's terrible or even terribad, as far as aggregate's go at least. It's fine to say that you don't think it's good, but you don't speak for everyone and it's pretty damn arrogant to even presume that you do.

I think DA2 did some right things, the fight encounter for the ancient rock wraith for example is a good example of something that requires a bit more thought than just "GET TANK, SMACK TARGET TO GAIN AGGRO, KEEP TANK HEALED AND DESTROY IT WITH OTHER PARTY MEMBERS" It's rather disappointing that more fights didn't make use of more elaborate mechanics, but the fact that some fights did does actually qualify to me as being 'better combat.'

Personally though, I enjoyed that the combat itself was more responsive, however I did actually miss to some degree the finesse of properly timing your attacks so that you didn't bork your current action, I actually miss trying to time Mighty Blow correctly so I didn't miss out on my regular attack.

While I can imagine that this got somewhat tedious on the PC to essentially spam your attack button, on the 360 at least I felt that not doing something pretty much meant a waste of time.

Biggest issue for me with the game was the recycling of area's. I could understand several locations, but it got to the point that it felt that the game was a third of the actual size of what it portrayed itself to be, but was merely padded out with recycled content. That is easily the most disappointing part of the game for me.

That's the professional reviewrs score. Gamers have given it an average of 4.4 in Metacritic. You should read some of the comments there.

[randName]

Shadowbanner wrote...

Arijharn wrote...
.

That's the professional reviewrs score. Gamers have given it an average of 4.4 in Metacritic. You should read some of the comments there.

There is also a surprising negative tone towards DA2 in many places - or on places like Gamepot, reddit, RPS etc. the tone against the game seems to be largely negative (certainly on reddit).

[Kilshrek]

Guliver wrote...


You contradict yourself in every sentence. Archdemon was "the" end boss of DA:O and it was damn easy.
DA:O was a joke. You could solo the whole game and all of it's hardest bosses just with rogue. This is something you can't do on DA2 and that proves it's more challenging than DA:O.
Anyway, I never considered any of RPG's challenging. If you want challenge, play a strategy game on the hardest mode or go up against real players.

You want challenging, play Shogun 2's campaign on Legendary and watch as the AI cheatspawns units all over the shop.

Obviously as far as games go the AI isn't going to push the player to any sort of massive challenge. Your example there is rather poor because you've compared an apple to an orange.

By the way, do show us how you solo'd the Archdemon on nightmare, if that is what you're talking about. The simple "I did it so it's true" line never gets old. Anyway if I recall you do get friends in that fight, whether you like it or not.

Modifié par Kilshrek, 15 avril 2011 - 01:33 .

[sami jo]

mdugger12 wrote...

Some adults don't want to hem and haw over the boots they're going to put on a party member.
Some adults don't want their protagonist to pantomime during conversations
Some adults don't feel any "immersion" by pausing the game, entering a command, then watching everything play out.

 BUT they still may want to experience the world, story, and characters that  the developer has created.
It's not "idiot proof" nothing about DA:O made it suited for a smarter fanbase. NOTHING. Fans that think like you need to get over themselves

So, you don't like anything about classic RPG's but the story and can't fathom why some of us enjoy the strategy involved in optimizing the gear for every team member and like the ability to alter gear according to our playstyle? Heaven forbid anyone like something different from you and prefer that one of the few games to give us a classic RPG experience continue to do so in subsequent installments.  Honestly, I would not go scream in the ME forums about how much I hate the fps mechanics, nor would I be shocked if those fans were ticked if that mechanic was removed from the series. 

But if what you really care about is the story, then you certainly shouldn't be thrilled with DA2.  The depth and nuance is gone.  There is no decision such as the Harrowmont/Belehn choice in which one is a tyrant but an effective leader and the other is a good man but utterly ineffectual.  Do you risk killing innocents in the Tower to avoid any chance of an abomination running free and lose one of your most powerful weapons against the AD? Many conflicts in Origins could be resolved in multiple ways and often without bloodshed.  Side quests often had some semblance of a story to them instead of "You dropped this."  You could run off/kill all but one party member by the final fight if you ticked them off enough.  In DA2, they hate you enough to stay.   Your "big choice" in DA2 is between the poor oppressed blood mage/abominations or the Templars who are all either spineless idiots or power-mad sadists.  Except your choice isn't really a choice because you have to fight them all anyway and the battle you have absolutely no choice in and cannot avoid always has the exact same impact on Thedas.  If my choices are going to have no impact, I'd rather read a book.

DA:O had its issues.  Combat did need work.  I personally prefer a silent protagonist and hate the friggin conversation wheel, but I can understand the argument from those who like the voiced protagonist and I would hate the wheel less if the "paraphrases" bore any resemblance to what actually cme out of my character's mouth.  I like the intention icons on the wheel. I like much of what they did in streamlining the talents. I'm don't particularly like either implementation of crafting.  I dislike being railroaded into such narrow builds for each class.  I used Str/Dex warriors a lot in Origins, but the build isn't compatible with any of the equipment in DA2.  I liked being able to scout ahead with my rogue and set traps.  I liked that I could play tactically, even if there were builds that made it unnecessary.  Mostly, I liked the depth of the story.  Your choices have zero impact on the world in DA2.  The story happens to Hawke as opposed to Hawke shaping the story.  There is less story here than there was in Awakening and far less ability to impact the world.  I spent more time killing wave after wave of random raiders/thieves/thugs for no apparent reason while other townsfolk strolled unmolested through the battle.  This could have been incorporated into the story line in a formal way (beyond your companions oblique warnings about how dangerous the streets can be at night and how someone might pay you for cleaning them up).  Some formal recognition that Hawke has cleared the streets of villains would certainly make his status as Champion a little less random. 

[Bostur]

Vice-Admiral von Titsling wrote...

I don't share my favorite bar with preschools.
I don't share violent movies with my grandma.
I don't share RPGs with people who don't like RPGs.

If they want my money and praise, they need to make a product for me. If they want to make a game for those people, then they need to make a game for those people and stop blowing smoke up my ass.

There's absolutely NO need to make everything be idiot proof and have universal appeal. Adults need adult spaces, just as kids need kid spaces.

And I don't share my Whiskey with people who prefer Cherry Coke.

Well said.

[Maverick827]

Kilshrek wrote...

By the way, do show us how you solo'd the Archdemon on nightmare

I used Blood Wound on the darkspawn and siege weapons on the Archdemon.

[Killjoy Cutter]

Arijharn ...
I'm not sure how you can say 'public outcry over DA2 is massive' when it's metacritic scores are 79 (xbox 360), 82 (PC) and 82 (PS3). It shows that generally reviewers think it's high average (to which I agree) but not that it's terrible or even terribad, as far as aggregate's go at least. It's fine to say that you don't think it's good, but you don't speak for everyone and it's pretty damn arrogant to even presume that you do.

Professional review scores are warped by the shills and the people in it for the free stuff. 

Modifié par Killjoy Cutter, 15 avril 2011 - 01:59 .

[Killjoy Cutter]

Vice-Admiral von Titsling wrote...

mdugger12 wrote...
They asked for an adult audience to act like adults and give other gamers a chance to love what they love. They didn't drastically change "your" franchise, they just made it available to new fans.

I don't share my favorite bar with preschools.
I don't share violent movies with my grandma.
I don't share RPGs with people who don't like RPGs.

If they want my money and praise, they need to make a product for me. If they want to make a game for those people, then they need to make a game for those people and stop blowing smoke up my ass.

There's absolutely NO need to make everything be idiot proof and have universal appeal. Adults need adult spaces, just as kids need kid spaces.

Indeed.

"Available to new fans" is just marketing drone speak for "watered down so we can tell the CEO that we're targetting more audiences". 

[Killjoy Cutter]

Edli wrote...

Guliver wrote...

Bull**** in all it's glory.

There's nothing challenging or hard about games. You just press buttons and something awesome happens. Life is about overcoming challanges, game is just about fun. Don't confuse those two things.

It kinda makes me wonder why some peoples prefer to play chess in their free time. I mean seriously, why challenge yourself when you can have fun? Or maybe fun is subjective and means different things to different folks?

Yes.

Which is why it's a bad idea to try to make an entertainment product all things to all people. 

You don't try to make a video game into an RPG/shooter/action/everything game.  If you try, you don't make it fun for everyone, you make it diluted and blah for everyone. 

Let RPGs be RPGs for people who want to play RPGs.
Let shooters be shooters for people who want to play shooters.
Let action games be action for people who want to play action games.
Let puzzle games be puzzle for people who want to play puzzle games.
Let sports games be sports for people who want to play sports games.
Etc.

Stop trying to mix them all together and "capture more market".  It just makes all games watered-down crap.

Modifié par Killjoy Cutter, 15 avril 2011 - 02:25 .

[astreqwerty]

RinpocheSchnozberry wrote...

Greetings fellows!  I must say that based upon that link, I hold high hopes for the future at this juncture.  ^_^

I'm glad they're sticking to their guns on this. I enjoyed DAO and I enjoyed, DA2, but DA2 had more playtime per hour than DAO did. Because of that, DA2 is shorter, but I certainly don't miss the plodding, filler combat from DAO.

I like his explanation of the recycled maps. That's kind of what I had suspected. Still, I wish there had more more variety there. Like how Bethesda has components to their dungeons and they swap pieces and parts out to make different places.

Still, someone should have poked him and been like "Dude? We need to be able to manage all our companions from a central location, even if it doesn't make any sense in a larger scale."

Good stuff! Here's to the future!

get out of here mike this is us flaming you to death

[tmp7704]

Guliver wrote...

DA:O was a joke. You could solo the whole game and all of it's hardest bosses just with rogue. This is something you can't do on DA2 and that proves it's more challenging than DA:O.

And yet the lead designer of DA2 cited in this very thread states that DAO on default difficulty was found too hard for average player, so DA2 was made easier accordingly and people who seek challenge similar to that of DAO should play DA2 on hard difficulty...

[Teredan]

RinpocheSchnozberry wrote...

Greetings fellows!  I must say that based upon that link, I hold high hopes for the future at this juncture.  ^_^

I'm glad they're sticking to their guns on this. I enjoyed DAO and I enjoyed, DA2, but DA2 had more playtime per hour than DAO did. Because of that, DA2 is shorter, but I certainly don't miss the plodding, filler combat from DAO.

I like his explanation of the recycled maps. That's kind of what I had suspected. Still, I wish there had more more variety there. Like how Bethesda has components to their dungeons and they swap pieces and parts out to make different places.

Still, someone should have poked him and been like "Dude? We need to be able to manage all our companions from a central location, even if it doesn't make any sense in a larger scale."

Good stuff! Here's to the future!

did we play the same game? there's a whole lot **** more filler combat in DA2 than DA:O.
I mean enemy waves^10 are the definition of drawn out filler combat...

[Everwarden]

sami jo wrote...
  Except your choice isn't really a choice because you have to fight them all anyway and the battle you have absolutely no choice in and cannot avoid always has the exact same impact on Thedas.  If my choices are going to have no impact, I'd rather read a book.

God, I'm tempted to make that my sig. 

[Sabriana]

sami jo wrote...

mdugger12 wrote...

Some adults don't want to hem and haw over the boots they're going to put on a party member.
Some adults don't want their protagonist to pantomime during conversations
Some adults don't feel any "immersion" by pausing the game, entering a command, then watching everything play out.

 BUT they still may want to experience the world, story, and characters that  the developer has created.
It's not "idiot proof" nothing about DA:O made it suited for a smarter fanbase. NOTHING. Fans that think like you need to get over themselves

So, you don't like anything about classic RPG's but the story and can't fathom why some of us enjoy the strategy involved in optimizing the gear for every team member and like the ability to alter gear according to our playstyle? Heaven forbid anyone like something different from you and prefer that one of the few games to give us a classic RPG experience continue to do so in subsequent installments.  Honestly, I would not go scream in the ME forums about how much I hate the fps mechanics, nor would I be shocked if those fans were ticked if that mechanic was removed from the series. 

But if what you really care about is the story, then you certainly shouldn't be thrilled with DA2.  The depth and nuance is gone.  There is no decision such as the Harrowmont/Belehn choice in which one is a tyrant but an effective leader and the other is a good man but utterly ineffectual.  Do you risk killing innocents in the Tower to avoid any chance of an abomination running free and lose one of your most powerful weapons against the AD? Many conflicts in Origins could be resolved in multiple ways and often without bloodshed.  Side quests often had some semblance of a story to them instead of "You dropped this."  You could run off/kill all but one party member by the final fight if you ticked them off enough.  In DA2, they hate you enough to stay.   Your "big choice" in DA2 is between the poor oppressed blood mage/abominations or the Templars who are all either spineless idiots or power-mad sadists.  Except your choice isn't really a choice because you have to fight them all anyway and the battle you have absolutely no choice in and cannot avoid always has the exact same impact on Thedas.  If my choices are going to have no impact, I'd rather read a book.

DA:O had its issues.  Combat did need work.  I personally prefer a silent protagonist and hate the friggin conversation wheel, but I can understand the argument from those who like the voiced protagonist and I would hate the wheel less if the "paraphrases" bore any resemblance to what actually cme out of my character's mouth.  I like the intention icons on the wheel. I like much of what they did in streamlining the talents. I'm don't particularly like either implementation of crafting.  I dislike being railroaded into such narrow builds for each class.  I used Str/Dex warriors a lot in Origins, but the build isn't compatible with any of the equipment in DA2.  I liked being able to scout ahead with my rogue and set traps.  I liked that I could play tactically, even if there were builds that made it unnecessary.  Mostly, I liked the depth of the story.  Your choices have zero impact on the world in DA2.  The story happens to Hawke as opposed to Hawke shaping the story.  There is less story here than there was in Awakening and far less ability to impact the world.  I spent more time killing wave after wave of random raiders/thieves/thugs for no apparent reason while other townsfolk strolled unmolested through the battle.  This could have been incorporated into the story line in a formal way (beyond your companions oblique warnings about how dangerous the streets can be at night and how someone might pay you for cleaning them up).  Some formal recognition that Hawke has cleared the streets of villains would certainly make his status as Champion a little less random. 

Very well put Sami. I had this in my head, but there was no way I could have put it in writing as eloquently as that.

Aside from choices/consequences, inability to customize, and all the other non-RPG changes, there are also the glaring plot-holes. The most glaring one is the MageHawke running around unmolested while shooting off spells right in front of templars, guards, and citizens. It was never explained, there was not even the attempt to explain this utterly horrific plot-hole.

And please don't tell me that it would have hampered the story. It's their story, and their lore. So see to it that it makes sense. Any sense. At least try. For example, give mages the skill to use a bow, or a dagger. If they use magic withing the perception range of a guard or templar, there will be consequences. There are many other ways. But I guess they couldn't be bothered with "details". Maybe if I play on "hard", there will be plot-hole closure.

Wait! I already do, NM even.... Darnit.

[Aradace]

@Sabriana - You do realize that its the exact same way in Origins right? You can use magic right in front of a Templar and there is 0 consequence?

[MrTijger]

Aradace wrote...

@Sabriana - You do realize that its the exact same way in Origins right? You can use magic right in front of a Templar and there is 0 consequence?

The riposte to that is that you are a Grey Warden and therefore untouchable. Odd though that this fact didnt hinder a templar to lay a trap for Anders in Awakenings even after being warned off by the King no less.

Modifié par MrTijger, 15 avril 2011 - 02:31 .

[Killjoy Cutter]

Sabriana wrote...

sami jo wrote...

mdugger12 wrote...

Some adults don't want to hem and haw over the boots they're going to put on a party member.
Some adults don't want their protagonist to pantomime during conversations
Some adults don't feel any "immersion" by pausing the game, entering a command, then watching everything play out.

 BUT they still may want to experience the world, story, and characters that  the developer has created.
It's not "idiot proof" nothing about DA:O made it suited for a smarter fanbase. NOTHING. Fans that think like you need to get over themselves

So, you don't like anything about classic RPG's but the story and can't fathom why some of us enjoy the strategy involved in optimizing the gear for every team member and like the ability to alter gear according to our playstyle? Heaven forbid anyone like something different from you and prefer that one of the few games to give us a classic RPG experience continue to do so in subsequent installments.  Honestly, I would not go scream in the ME forums about how much I hate the fps mechanics, nor would I be shocked if those fans were ticked if that mechanic was removed from the series. 

But if what you really care about is the story, then you certainly shouldn't be thrilled with DA2.  The depth and nuance is gone.  There is no decision such as the Harrowmont/Belehn choice in which one is a tyrant but an effective leader and the other is a good man but utterly ineffectual.  Do you risk killing innocents in the Tower to avoid any chance of an abomination running free and lose one of your most powerful weapons against the AD? Many conflicts in Origins could be resolved in multiple ways and often without bloodshed.  Side quests often had some semblance of a story to them instead of "You dropped this."  You could run off/kill all but one party member by the final fight if you ticked them off enough.  In DA2, they hate you enough to stay.   Your "big choice" in DA2 is between the poor oppressed blood mage/abominations or the Templars who are all either spineless idiots or power-mad sadists.  Except your choice isn't really a choice because you have to fight them all anyway and the battle you have absolutely no choice in and cannot avoid always has the exact same impact on Thedas.  If my choices are going to have no impact, I'd rather read a book.

DA:O had its issues.  Combat did need work.  I personally prefer a silent protagonist and hate the friggin conversation wheel, but I can understand the argument from those who like the voiced protagonist and I would hate the wheel less if the "paraphrases" bore any resemblance to what actually cme out of my character's mouth.  I like the intention icons on the wheel. I like much of what they did in streamlining the talents. I'm don't particularly like either implementation of crafting.  I dislike being railroaded into such narrow builds for each class.  I used Str/Dex warriors a lot in Origins, but the build isn't compatible with any of the equipment in DA2.  I liked being able to scout ahead with my rogue and set traps.  I liked that I could play tactically, even if there were builds that made it unnecessary.  Mostly, I liked the depth of the story.  Your choices have zero impact on the world in DA2.  The story happens to Hawke as opposed to Hawke shaping the story.  There is less story here than there was in Awakening and far less ability to impact the world.  I spent more time killing wave after wave of random raiders/thieves/thugs for no apparent reason while other townsfolk strolled unmolested through the battle.  This could have been incorporated into the story line in a formal way (beyond your companions oblique warnings about how dangerous the streets can be at night and how someone might pay you for cleaning them up).  Some formal recognition that Hawke has cleared the streets of villains would certainly make his status as Champion a little less random. 

Very well put Sami. I had this in my head, but there was no way I could have put it in writing as eloquently as that.

Aside from choices/consequences, inability to customize, and all the other non-RPG changes, there are also the glaring plot-holes. The most glaring one is the MageHawke running around unmolested while shooting off spells right in front of templars, guards, and citizens. It was never explained, there was not even the attempt to explain this utterly horrific plot-hole.

And please don't tell me that it would have hampered the story. It's their story, and their lore. So see to it that it makes sense. Any sense. At least try. For example, give mages the skill to use a bow, or a dagger. If they use magic withing the perception range of a guard or templar, there will be consequences. There are many other ways. But I guess they couldn't be bothered with "details". Maybe if I play on "hard", there will be plot-hole closure.

Wait! I already do, NM even.... Darnit.

That would be interesting and novel... if you use magic within a certain range of a templar NPC, it draws their attention, and you potentially have to fight them. 

Maybe the element of  a "special dispensation" could have been included, that mages could be granted if they're working directly for the Viscount, or the Kirkwall Guard, and Hawke could earn it at some point in Act 1.   Make it a source of tension between Meredith and the Viscount that increases as Act 2 goes on.  Then, in Act 3, Hawke is the Champion, and thus automatically has the special dispensation by virtue of that alone. 

[tmp7704]

Aradace wrote...

@Sabriana - You do realize that its the exact same way in Origins right? You can use magic right in front of a Templar and there is 0 consequence?

DAO doesn't spend half of the game making a big deal out of "oh my gods apostate mages are out of control", nor do its character keep fretting over what's going to happen to them if they ever get found.

[Killjoy Cutter]

MrTijger wrote...

Aradace wrote...

@Sabriana - You do realize that its the exact same way in Origins right? You can use magic right in front of a Templar and there is 0 consequence?

The riposte to that is that you are a Grey Warden and therefore untouchable. Odd though that this fact didnt hinder a templar to lay a trap for Anders in Awakenings even after being warned off by the King no less.

Certain templars seem to feel that the Chantry's and Order's positions are only starting points, and that they are given holy writ to go out and so whatever they personally find necessary.

[Aradace]

MrTijger wrote...

Aradace wrote...

@Sabriana - You do realize that its the exact same way in Origins right? You can use magic right in front of a Templar and there is 0 consequence?

The riposte to that is that you are a Grey Warden and therefore untouchable. Odd though that this fact didnt hinder a templar to lay a trap for Anders in Awakenings even after being warned off by the King no less.

True on the grey warden part.  Regardless though,  BW obviously isnt interested in this level of immersion anymore.  It's great that some of you are,  but dont damn them just because they dont take into account for EVERYTHING anymore like they apparently did in their RPGs 10-15 years ago.

[Killjoy Cutter]

tmp7704 wrote...

Aradace wrote...

@Sabriana - You do realize that its the exact same way in Origins right? You can use magic right in front of a Templar and there is 0 consequence?

DAO doesn't spend half of the game making a big deal out of "oh my gods apostate mages are out of control", nor do its character keep fretting over what's going to happen to them if they ever get found.

This is true, and so is the part about the PC in Origins being a Grey Warden.

[Killjoy Cutter]

Aradace wrote...

MrTijger wrote...

Aradace wrote...

@Sabriana - You do realize that its the exact same way in Origins right? You can use magic right in front of a Templar and there is 0 consequence?

The riposte to that is that you are a Grey Warden and therefore untouchable. Odd though that this fact didnt hinder a templar to lay a trap for Anders in Awakenings even after being warned off by the King no less.

True on the grey warden part.  Regardless though,  BW obviously isnt interested in this level of immersion anymore.  It's great that some of you are,  but dont damn them just because they dont take into account for EVERYTHING anymore like they apparently did in their RPGs 10-15 years ago.

If you're going to do something, you do it right, not just the bare minimum you can get by on. 

[Aradace]

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

Aradace wrote...

MrTijger wrote...

Aradace wrote...

@Sabriana - You do realize that its the exact same way in Origins right? You can use magic right in front of a Templar and there is 0 consequence?

The riposte to that is that you are a Grey Warden and therefore untouchable. Odd though that this fact didnt hinder a templar to lay a trap for Anders in Awakenings even after being warned off by the King no less.

True on the grey warden part.  Regardless though,  BW obviously isnt interested in this level of immersion anymore.  It's great that some of you are,  but dont damn them just because they dont take into account for EVERYTHING anymore like they apparently did in their RPGs 10-15 years ago.

If you're going to do something, you do it right, not just the bare minimum you can get by on. 

Apparently they disagree with you and according to the interview, vehemently so. 

[tmp7704]

MrTijger wrote...

The riposte to that is that you are a Grey Warden and therefore untouchable. Odd though that this fact didnt hinder a templar to lay a trap for Anders in Awakenings even after being warned off by the King no less.

She seemed to really have it for Anders due to all his previous escapes, and i'd suspect all these dead templars who were escorting him didn't help, no matter how many times Anders would claim he didn't do it; doubt she was really concerned with law at that point.

[Volourn]

"The riposte to that is that you are a Grey Warden and therefore untouchable. "

O RLY? Must explain why you are attacked by a bunch of epople. You are attacked by Denerium guards, thugs, and bdanits. You are attacked in the dwarven city, elven village, and everywhere else you go. Why lie, and make stuff up/ The GW isn't untouchable. I mean, come on, for the majority of the game, you are hunted like a dog 9which was done poorly overall).

LMAO Warden untouchable. HAHAHA!