966 réponses à ce sujet

[Tantum Dic Verbo]

AlanC9 wrote...

NWN hard? The game with infinite free respawning?

Hell, BG wasn't all that hard. You could get screwed at low levels or if someone blew a couple saves, but that's not the same thing as being hard. The vaunted mage battles in BG2 were just a matter of remembering how to play rock-paper-scissors, and the loadscreens themselves told you what to do.

Easier still if you had elemental damage on your weapons.  It would penetrate the cheesy D&D mage defenses and keep shutting down the spellcasting.  Nothing quite like locking down the mightiest mage in Faerun two or three hit points at a time until his defenses expire. 

I still don't get the devotion to the layout and combat of BG2.  I loved that game--poured I don't know how many hours into it--but the idea that there was some sort of incredible depth to the combat strategy?  Can't see where that's coming from.

[DreGregoire]

Why are you arguing and comparing the term hard when obviously your interpretation of the word hard differs? You can't argue about the subjective in a manner that changes it to actual fact without having other people call you on it?

[Vaern Sul]

What annoys me the most here really is the fact that Mr Laidlaw has yet to even aknowledge ANY flaw at all in his cherished game, or when he did, it was to minimize their importance.
I mean, come on, airbornes waves. Kirkwall, the empty "crowded" city . Templars yawning before my blood mage sliting his wrists to repaint the walls in that lovely red color. If it's some sort of inspired design choice, well, I must be missing it.
So, Oh, sure, "it's rushed" the fans will say. But he could at least admit that it was. I mean, it's blatant. As comically blatant as Ander's "Uh...I didn't do it" in DA:A.
Mr Laidlaw, people won't throw rocks at you because you admit a fault everyone as aware of. 

I'll probably sound like a Witcher fanboi for saying that, and maybe I am, but get this : When the Witcher came out, it was full of bugs, cloned npcs, badly voiced characters, cluncky animations and eon-lasting loading time. Well, your polish competitor adimtted it, apologized, and some times latter, the Enhanced Edition came out, as a free patch for every owner to download, with fixed bugs, re-recorded sequences, new body animations and 80% faster loading times. Do you think the community kicked their asses for doing that. Well, what do you think ?

So, in a nutshell : Where is your apology card Bioware ?
:innocent:

[MorrigansLove]

I usually only play games for the story, which is why I didn't mind the combat. It was fast, exhilarating and I was always on edge. What brought down DA2 for me, and alot of other people, is that DA2's story was so incredibly lackluster,(with forgettable companions, and plotholes galore), which is not what Bioware is really accumstomed to do. I play their games for AMAZING IMMERSIVE stories. DA2 did not satisfy me, and alot of others, at all.

[Fallstar]

Volourn wrote...

"You my friend, need to play Final Fantasy VII, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, and plenty of other RPG's because you obviously don't know a damned thing about them. These games WERE hard. As was Dragon Age: Origins."

DA2 was harder than all of them. You obviously know nothing about those games.

I'm afraid I'm going to have to disagree with you. Dragon Age: Origins was significantly harder than DA:2 in that it required more intelligence to plan out a strategy, execute it, pause, make the necessary amendments, let a few more turns of combat play out, pause, re-evaluate etc. DA:2 is, to be honest, just cheesy. The wave mechanic makes some encounters longer, but not harder. Also, if you have a 2h warrior with the primeval lyrium rune and haste - no matter what difficulty you put it on, it is almost impossible not to defeat any enemy in the game aside from Xebenkeck.

[Melca36]

Yellow Words wrote...

H1natachan wrote...

Lets all just sit back and hope the DLC's might save or even turn around DA2, guess i'm naive even daring to think that, then again, what other suprises are in store for us ?

DA:O has replay value up it's sleeve at least, but DA2 the replay value plummets once you've played all 4 classes + possible questing paths.

DA:O venturing into the deep roads felt more epic, you actually did feel like you was in a hostile place. Deep roads in DA2, well i guess they failed there.

I really hope that lessons are learned and DA3 at least gives us what us players want in a RPG.

For me it's the other way around. DA2 offer me far more replay value than DAO ever did. 

So you like exploding bodies?

You think those pick and delivery quests have depth?

[Killjoy Cutter]

I don't really judge based on a simple metric of how "hard" a game is, few games seem to find that magic balance that lies somewhere between "walkover" and "too frustrating to bother with".

[SoR82]

Difficulty i didnt have much quarms with either way,,, unless finding motivation to play the game counts?

You want a hard game try Demons Souls.... wow first game ive ever had my **** kicked on a tutorial level XD.

As for this thread... he made some choices that didnt work and wont admit it thats what it comes down to for me. That and they rushed it out to cash in... i had more fun with that 2d version whose name escapes me.... gah what was it called...

[DraCZeQQ]

Volourn wrote...

"You my friend, need to play Final Fantasy VII, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, and plenty of other RPG's because you obviously don't know a damned thing about them. These games WERE hard. As was Dragon Age: Origins."

DA2 was harder than all of them. You obviously know nothing about those games.

I disagree with you on this. AD&D system implemented in mentioned games is more complicated then DA2 stat system ... the combats in these game have unlike DA2 diversity and there is a lot of different combat scenarios that require different tactics ... these games also offer use of multiple different tactics to achieve a goals or to win a combat ... on the other hand ... since 95% combats in DA2 is identical you need 1 tactics for trash combat and a separate tactics for 2 "unique boss" fights and even these fights have brain-dead tactics (ARW - get lightning resist and dodge rolls, High Dragon - get fire resist and smash)

SoR82 wrote...

You want a hard game try Demons Souls.... wow first game ive ever had my **** kicked on a tutorial level XD.

Demons Souls is a pure evil! Thats why I liked it so much  ... it gives you so much options how to solve things, how to build your character, how to play your character ... its just "wow" ...

Modifié par DraCZeQQ, 15 avril 2011 - 08:57 .

[NWNMarc]

mdugger12 wrote...

There is nothing wrong with wanting to play a great RPG. DA:O was a love letter to old school fans. But whats wrong with making the game more digestible for new fans? Why can they share in the experience? Is and extra set of armor for a companion or a codex entry about a trash piece of loot all RPGs really are about?

Players like me are less attached to old-school than you might think. I don't particularly miss being able to dress Isabela in a hat. I do miss item descriptions, but it's not a dealbreaker for me. I can even live with waves of unlikey enemies, especially on console, although it got tedious for me in a hurry.

What cheeses off players like me is the lack of attention to the story. When characters have glaring internal inconsistencies, and not in the good way, which would seem next to impossible given that they've all been stripped down to single motivations, or when the game can't recognize where your companion is along his or her arc, it makes things like enemies spawning in midair or reused maps harder to ignore. It's like BioWare is saying, forget story! How about that combat? But the combat by itself is nothing remarkable. Any number of games do it much better. Fable does it better. Story is what I get from role-playing games, which I can't get from other genres. This is the crux of the problem for me.

Not to say that Origins was literature, because it wasn't. But in the end its companions and NPCs made pretty good narrative sense, and they reacted to the player's actions in consistent ways, and they weren't at cross-purposes with the overall plot like they are in this game. Take a Dragon Age II with the same combat, the same crafting system, the same companion inventory system, and the same reused maps, but with more carefully designed characters better integrated into a more thoughtfully plotted story, and I suspect that the RPG old school wouldn't be quite so get-off-my-lawn-you-damn-kids.

[Volourn]

"NWN hard? The game with infinite free respawning?"

If you needed to use respawn to play the game, then yeah, it was hard for you. Try to play it without using the 'cheats' BIO included. Then it becomes more challenging.

No respawning, no resting everywhere, no teleporting at will just like 'ol skool D7D than NWN can force you to play smart. If you felt the need to respawn than it was hard for you.

"AD&D system implemented in mentioned games is more complicated then DA2 stat system "

How is BG's AD&D system more 'complicated' than DA2? It isn't. BG2 D7D system is dumbed down D&D. Sorry, DA2 is harder. And, I LOVE D&D rules and I love BG2 (better game than DA2 overall); but challenge wise.. DA2 wins.

NWN, on the other hand, had more complex rules than DA2 but the combat was not harder.


And, outside of the 'secret bosses', FF7 was super easy.

[tonnactus]

SirLogical wrote...

I'm afraid I'm going to have to disagree with you. Dragon Age: Origins was significantly harder than DA:2 in that it required more intelligence to plan out a strategy, execute it, pause, make the necessary amendments, let a few more turns of combat play out, pause, re-evaluate etc.

Either i played i different game then and didnt know that i am actually a good player and not a mediocre one,or this is just wrong .Dragon Age was only hard with a rogue archer on nightmare in the beginning. There it ends.
The only "intelligence" required in builds was full strenght with a two-handed warrior or full magic with a mage.
Full dexterity for rogues without lethality,otherwise 30 there and the rest in cunning.
Because players get health and mana/stamina for free everytime they leveled up,thus investing points in willpower or constitution really gimp a character.(strategy inculdes how to build a character,so this isnt off topic)
Tactics for bosses: Misdirection hex,death hex,cone of cold.
Enemy mages: Many clash.

DA:2 is, to be honest, just cheesy. The wave mechanic makes some encounters longer, but not harder. Also, if you have a 2h warrior with the primeval lyrium rune and haste - no matter what difficulty you put it on, it is almost impossible not to defeat any enemy in the game aside from Xebenkeck.

Like with the arcane warrior in the first game i guess:So much armor,defense and health/health regenration that not even dragon mauls or ogre grabs do anything.

Modifié par tonnactus, 15 avril 2011 - 09:09 .

[ejoslin]

NWNMarc wrote...

mdugger12 wrote...

There is nothing wrong with wanting to play a great RPG. DA:O was a love letter to old school fans. But whats wrong with making the game more digestible for new fans? Why can they share in the experience? Is and extra set of armor for a companion or a codex entry about a trash piece of loot all RPGs really are about?

Players like me are less attached to old-school than you might think. I don't particularly miss being able to dress Isabela in a hat. I do miss item descriptions, but it's not a dealbreaker for me. I can even live with waves of unlikey enemies, especially on console, although it got tedious for me in a hurry.

What cheeses off players like me is the lack of attention to the story. When characters have glaring internal inconsistencies, and not in the good way, which would seem next to impossible given that they've all been stripped down to single motivations, or when the game can't recognize where your companion is along his or her arc, it makes things like enemies spawning in midair or reused maps harder to ignore. It's like BioWare is saying, forget story! How about that combat? But the combat by itself is nothing remarkable. Any number of games do it much better. Fable does it better. Story is what I get from role-playing games, which I can't get from other genres. This is the crux of the problem for me.

Not to say that Origins was literature, because it wasn't. But in the end its companions and NPCs made pretty good narrative sense, and they reacted to the player's actions in consistent ways, and they weren't at cross-purposes with the overall plot like they are in this game. Take a Dragon Age II with the same combat, the same crafting system, the same companion inventory system, and the same reused maps, but with more carefully designed characters better integrated into a more thoughtfully plotted story, and I suspect that the RPG old school wouldn't be quite so get-off-my-lawn-you-damn-kids.

I have nothing to add, but yes, I agree with this.  More dialog, not less (something in between DAO and DA2 perhaps) so I get a sense of getting to know the companions.  A story that doesn't have so many internal flaws.  Romances that actually feel like they're building and maturing (after 3 years nothing has changed? what a lost opportunity).  

I can gloss over a lot if I'm deeply involved in the story.

Modifié par ejoslin, 15 avril 2011 - 09:12 .

[DraCZeQQ]

Volourn wrote...

"AD&D system implemented in mentioned games is more complicated then DA2 stat system "

How is BG's AD&D system more 'complicated' than DA2? It isn't. BG2 D7D system is dumbed down D&D. Sorry, DA2 is harder. And, I LOVE D&D rules and I love BG2 (better game than DA2 overall); but challenge wise.. DA2 wins.

NWN, on the other hand, had more complex rules than DA2 but the combat was not harder.

a) please if you gonna quote me, quote me properly ...
well if you found DA2 greater challange then BG2, thats your subjective opinion ... I found BG2 system and combats more challenging then DA2 and thats my subjective opinion ...
c) combat in DA2 is not hard nor challenging, its long, repetive, tedious and plain boring without hint of variety or inovation ...

[DeathStroke TZA]

FedericoV wrote...

DeathStroke TZA wrote...


My main qualm was that he say's we're doing it wrong. That isn't something you tell your customers. Calling me young is semi-correct as I'm 19 years-old. Calling me Naive is incorrect, I have 2 jobs, a fiance, a mortgage, college and too much to list that I deal with every day. No parents to help me with bills, or anything else for that matter like most of you. Taking a personal opinion and then trying to attack someone isn't very nice. So maybe you are the one who's naive.

First of all: I do not mean to attack you or to be disrepectfull. Sorry if I offended you, it wasn't my intention. I'm just saying that it's obvious that Bio devs and the docs will speak very well of their games while there is a commercial campaign going on and that you won't hear any negative thing about DA2 untill they begin to speak about DA3 (assuming that there will be a DA3). And also that it's obvious that they will defend their games against the harhest critics. I'm not saying that you are naive, I was talking about a trend I've seen in the forums: there people who come here expecting. an apology from the devs. Sorry, expecting is not the right word. They pretend it. Well, it will never happen.

That's alright, I just don't like their ethics, You don't diminish others for not likeing the game you made, if you want a broader audience you make it to where all can enjoy it, not just one side of the audience, which is what I feel Laidlaw is doing. I mean if he had instead said something along the lines of "I'm sorry you think the game is too easy, we will try to find a balancing point next time." Instead he basically says that this is the balanced point, whereas it actually isn't. I mean all of this is personal opinon, but I really think Laidlaw taking this stance of "I'm right; your wrong. deal with it" is going to hurt them. BioWare has always been known to listen to their fans, But this just isn't the case anymore, They seem to be more about making games for themselves, instead of the fanbase. As others have said games will get dull if new features aren't brought into genre's. They could have improved on Dragon Age: Origins engine instead of completely scrapping it and taking away a ton of features others enjoyed, Keeping the core audience and maybe gaining another spectrum of the entire gaming audience.
    
But all-in-all RPG's just aren't going to draw in those that they want. I have many friends that are into gaming; Those that play games like Halo, COD, Gears of War, and so on, just play it for gun blazing, headshotting goodness. Some of these players could really care less about story, which is a main element of RPG's. Mass Effect bridged some classic RPG players with other types of players. So it was win/win. But Dragon Age isn't Sci-Fi; it's fantasy, No guns, power sheilds or anything to that calibur, just Swords, bows, daggers, and good ol' face melting fireballs. 

[SoR82]

DeathStroke TZA wrote...
but I really think Laidlaw taking this stance of "I'm right; your wrong. deal with it" is going to hurt them.

I agree with you on this point especially EVERY interview pre or post release with this..... person gives me this vibe. If I was Bioware or Ea press guys Id hide him in a closet when people came for interviews. He seems to have ZERO clue how to talk to journalists he comes across as arrogant self absorbed and often hostile to people who disagree/have differing opinions.

Still it gives me some cheap laughs watchiing his antics

[DeathStroke TZA]

Volourn wrote...

"You my friend, need to play Final Fantasy VII, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, and plenty of other RPG's because you obviously don't know a damned thing about them. These games WERE hard. As was Dragon Age: Origins."

DA2 was harder than all of them. You obviously know nothing about those games.

Watch your tongue. These games are what started my gaming. Do NOT try to say I know nothing about some of the BEST games in history. 
Just messing with ya, but really, I found them much harder because I had to build strategies for these games, Dragon Age 2? I died on nightmare.. once and that was Meredith. Personal opinion and all I just feel that it was too easy compared to the first.

[IRMcGhee]

Wouldn't matter what Mr Laidlaw says, there'd always be someone to twist or deliberately misinterpret it to reinforce their rather pathetic little prejudices.

Modifié par IRMcGhee, 15 avril 2011 - 09:53 .

[Mecher3k]

IRMcGhee wrote...

pathetic little prejudices.

I suggest you look up that word before using it again.

[MorrigansLove]

Dragon Age is done! FINISHED!

/overdramaticness

[IRMcGhee]

Mecher3k wrote...

IRMcGhee wrote...
pathetic little prejudices.

I suggest you look up that word before using it again.

a. An adverse judgment or opinion formed beforehand or without knowledge or examination of the facts

Exactly what I meant. 

Modifié par IRMcGhee, 15 avril 2011 - 09:58 .

[Cutlasskiwi]

Melca36 wrote...

Yellow Words wrote...

H1natachan wrote...

Lets all just sit back and hope the DLC's might save or even turn around DA2, guess i'm naive even daring to think that, then again, what other suprises are in store for us ?

DA:O has replay value up it's sleeve at least, but DA2 the replay value plummets once you've played all 4 classes + possible questing paths.

DA:O venturing into the deep roads felt more epic, you actually did feel like you was in a hostile place. Deep roads in DA2, well i guess they failed there.

I really hope that lessons are learned and DA3 at least gives us what us players want in a RPG.

For me it's the other way around. DA2 offer me far more replay value than DAO ever did. 

So you like exploding bodies?

You think those pick and delivery quests have depth?

What a pleasant and nice way to try and get your point across. 

I feel more personally invested throughout the game and I like the story much more than DAO. I think the combat is fun, even though it's far from perfect. I find it really fun to play as a mage, in DAO they were so overpowered that I got bored after just a few hours. The friend/rivalry system added a new depth to the followers and I'm having fun exploring it.

DA2 is far from perfect but the positive things far outweigh the negative ones for me. 

Edit: Wrote DA2 when I meant DAO. 

Modifié par Yellow Words, 15 avril 2011 - 11:24 .

[Fallstar]

tonnactus wrote...

SirLogical wrote...

I'm afraid I'm going to have to disagree with you. Dragon Age: Origins was significantly harder than DA:2 in that it required more intelligence to plan out a strategy, execute it, pause, make the necessary amendments, let a few more turns of combat play out, pause, re-evaluate etc.

Either i played i different game then and didnt know that i am actually a good player and not a mediocre one,or this is just wrong .Dragon Age was only hard with a rogue archer on nightmare in the beginning. There it ends.
The only "intelligence" required in builds was full strenght with a two-handed warrior or full magic with a mage.
Full dexterity for rogues without lethality,otherwise 30 there and the rest in cunning.
Because players get health and mana/stamina for free everytime they leveled up,thus investing points in willpower or constitution really gimp a character.(strategy inculdes how to build a character,so this isnt off topic)
Tactics for bosses: Misdirection hex,death hex,cone of cold.
Enemy mages: Many clash.

DA:2 is, to be honest, just cheesy. The wave mechanic makes some encounters longer, but not harder. Also, if you have a 2h warrior with the primeval lyrium rune and haste - no matter what difficulty you put it on, it is almost impossible not to defeat any enemy in the game aside from Xebenkeck.

Like with the arcane warrior in the first game i guess:So much armor,defense and health/health regenration that not even dragon mauls or ogre grabs do anything.

Did you play on the PC on nightmare? Most of those hexes you refer to would be resisted by a boss, and most trash mobs. What about Gaxkang? Is it coincidence that there has been ONE recorded solo of him on nightmare? In what, a year and a half? Compared with the fact that everyone is soloing bosses on nightmare, hell, even hitting over 100k damage now? For sure, the dex rogue was OP'd, as was the arcane warrior, but the most powerful bosses still gave a challenge. We can create classes in DA: 2 where my 2h warrior could hit enemies twice a second or faster. I normally advocate being polite on these forums, but being able to hit someone twice a second with a dock off giant sword is a joke. Dragon Age 2 is an incredibly easy game by comparison.

[AlanC9]

Tantum Dic Verbo wrote...
Easier still if you had elemental damage on your weapons.  It would penetrate the cheesy D&D mage defenses and keep shutting down the spellcasting.  Nothing quite like locking down the mightiest mage in Faerun two or three hit points at a time until his defenses expire.  

My favorite exploit was actually Keldorn's personal sword that damages anyone who damages him. So if an enemy mage puts up Fire Shield just send Keldorn up to hit him. Keldorn's attack bounces, the Fire Shield hits Keldorn, and then the sword damages the mage. I'm not sure how that damage effect was coded but it seems to hit anything.

I still don't get the devotion to the layout and combat of BG2.  I loved that game--poured I don't know how many hours into it--but the idea that there was some sort of incredible depth to the combat strategy?  Can't see where that's coming from.

It's not actually depth. It's breadth. There were a lot of different enemies that required special approaches. None of these approaches were actually difficult, but it did make the player remember a lot of stuff. Not so much complexity and mastering complexity as the feeling of mastering complexity.

Also, DAO's Tactics means that you can automate things that don't require thought. In an IE game you have to do them yourself.

And I actually think that the average level of DAO play might be higher than the average level of BG2 play. I see a lot more stupid advice about how to play BG2 than stupid advice about how to play DAO. I think it's because BG2 is easy enough so even stupid tactics can work.